@Keith

Amen, Jesus is the Messiah! I set up a one-on-one discussion with you to discuss and share our beliefs. I’m not a JW but always like to discuss the distinctions. If interested, go to the discussion here: https://heavennet.net/forums/topic/lightenup-keith-discussion/#post-948050

Hope to see you there,

Lightenup (LU)

@Keith

Hoping to discuss your JW beliefs here.

For anyone following this exchange, I want to offer a brief summary so the main point doesn’t get lost in the back‑and‑forth.

The Tanakh presents a consistent pattern for God’s chosen figures: suffering or rejection first, followed by vindication and restoration. This pattern appears in Joseph, Moses, David, the Servant in Isaiah, and the pierced…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Below is a simple comparison of what the Tanakh says the Messiah must do, and how Jesus either fulfilled it already or is said to fulfill it in the future. This avoids going in circles and keeps everything text‑anchored.

Messianic Expectation (Tanakh) / Jesus in NT / Messianic Age Fulfillment

Born from David (Jer 23:5; 2 Sam 7…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

You’ve made it very clear who you believe the Messiah is *not*.
So let me ask the obvious question you’ve avoided:

Who do you believe the Messiah is?

Not “what the Messiah will do.”
Not “why Jesus isn’t the Messiah.”
Not “what Christianity gets wrong.”
I’m asking for a name.

According to your own reading of the Tanakh:

• Who is t…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

1. ISAIAH 53
If the servant is Israel, then explain why the servant is righteous (53:11) when Israel is repeatedly called sinful (Isa 1:4; 48:8). Explain why the servant suffers for the sins of others (53:5–6) when Israel suffers for its own sins (Isa 40:2). Explain why the servant dies (53:8–9) when Israel never dies. Explain why…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Calling Proverbs 8 “just poetry” doesn’t erase what the text actually says. Hebrew poetry uses personification to reveal truth, not to hide it. And the truth in Proverbs 8 is that Wisdom is portrayed as a real, pre‑creation figure distinct from God in role and relationship.

If Wisdom “is God,” then explain why the text says:
– “YH…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

You’re demanding that the Messiah fulfill every *end‑time* prophecy in His first appearance, but the Tanakh never says that. Not once. You invented that rule.

The Tanakh’s actual pattern is always the same:
first suffering/rejection,
then exaltation,
then worldwide restoration.

This is Joseph, Moses, David, the Servant in Isaia…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

You asked: “Can you show me anywhere in the Tanakh where the Messiah was going to die for the sins of mankind?”

Yes. The Tanakh teaches this in multiple passages.

1. Isaiah 53
The Servant dies as a substitutionary sacrifice:
• “He was pierced for our transgressions” (53:5)
• “The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all” (53:6…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Regarding point 5:

You said that wisdom in Proverbs 8 is just a characteristic with human-like qualities, and definitely not a reference to Jesus. But the problem is that Proverbs 8 does not describe a characteristic. It describes a pre-existent, active, relational person.

1. Proverbs 8 uses verbs of personal agency:
Wisdom calls,…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Regarding the dynasty concern:

SUMMARY: JESUS AND SOLOMON’S DYNASTY

Jesus did NOT come from Solomon’s dynasty biologically, but He DID come from Solomon’s dynasty legally. This distinction is essential for understanding how the Messiah fulfills both the biological and royal requirements of the Davidic covenant.

1. Biological Desce…[Read more]

@DesireTruth
You’re raising translation concerns, so let’s deal with them carefully and textually — not rhetorically.

1. “Battle of translations”? No — the issue is the Hebrew text itself.
Your Jewish translation is translating the same Hebrew verbs:
• קָנָנִי (qanani) — Qal perfect of קָנָה
• חוֹלָלְתִּי (cholalti) — Pual perfect of חוּל
The de…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

See Proverbs 8:24-25 and look at the parallel Bibles to see that the word “born” or “brought forth” is in nearly all of the versions. There you will see the evidence.

@DesireTruth

ACTIONS OF WISDOM IN PROVERBS 8 — FULL CHAPTER (NASB)

────────────────────────────────────────
PART 1 — PROVERBS 8:1–21
────────────────────────────────────────

1. Calls out publicly (v.1)
2. Takes her stand in prominent places (v.2)
3. Cries aloud at the city gates (v.3)
4. Calls to all humanity (v.4)
5. Commands the simple to…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Proverbs 8:1 begins with the narrator of the chapter who quotes the person referred to as wisdom.

The Son was born/begotten before the creation of the depths and mountains. A birth is not a beginning of existence, a birth requires that which is born to have existed so that he could be born. The Son existed eternally within the…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

There is much more than the word “craftsman” that shows wisdom is referring to a person who was with God before creation.
The Tanakh itself uses these words to show that:

• “I was born” — Proverbs 8:24
• “I was born” — Proverbs 8:25
• “From everlasting I was established” — Proverbs 8:23
• “When He established the heavens, I was…[Read more]

You raised several objections, but none of them actually address the point I made, so let me clarify it in the simplest possible terms.

My claim is not that Philo, Sirach, or the Targums are “Scripture.” My claim is that ancient Jews before Christianity interpreted Proverbs 8 as describing a real, personal, pre‑existent figure who comes forth…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Just to clarify: the idea that Proverbs 8 describes a divine, pre‑existent figure who participates in creation is not a Christian invention. Multiple ancient Jewish sources — long before Christianity — interpreted it that way.

Philo of Alexandria (20 BC–AD 50), a Jewish philosopher, explicitly identified the figure in Proverb…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

I mentioned the part of the chapter that was dealing with the topic of creation because that is what we were discussing.

Also I addressed your point about “wisdom” being feminine to tell you that just because Hebrew words have a gender for their grammatical construction doesn’t really mean anything significant when the noun is inani…[Read more]