One God and One Lord

[Lightenup]

You raised several objections, but none of them actually address the point I made, so let me clarify it in the simplest possible terms.

My claim is not that Philo, Sirach, or the Targums are “Scripture.” My claim is that ancient Jews before Christianity interpreted Proverbs 8 as describing a real, personal, pre‑existent figure who comes forth from God and participates in creation.

That is a historical claim, not a theological one.

Here are the facts:

1. Philo was a Jew, not a Christian. Whether you like his Hellenized background or not, he is still a Jewish witness to how Jews in the first century understood Proverbs 8. He explicitly identifies the figure in Proverbs 8 with the divine Logos, the first‑born Son, and the agent of creation. That is simply a matter of record.

2. Sirach and Wisdom of Solomon are Jewish books written before Christianity. You don’t have to accept them as Scripture for them to show how Jews interpreted “Wisdom.” Both books describe Wisdom as pre‑existent, coming forth from God, and active in creation. Again, that is historical evidence of Jewish interpretation.

3. The Targums use “Memra” as a divine agent who creates, speaks, saves, and judges. Whether you think Memra is a substitute for YHWH or a distinct agent, it still shows that Jews believed in a personal, active intermediary associated with creation.

4. The “Two Powers in Heaven” doctrine is documented in early rabbinic literature as a Jewish belief that existed before Christianity. You may reject it, but it is still part of Jewish interpretive history.

None of these sources are Christian. They are Jewish. And they all show that the idea of a divine, pre‑existent, co‑creative figure was not invented by Christianity.

Now, if you disagree with these Jewish sources, that’s fine. But dismissing them doesn’t erase the fact that they existed and that they interpreted Proverbs 8 in a way that aligns with what I’m saying.

So let me bring this back to the actual text:

Proverbs 8 describes something that:
• comes forth from YHWH
• exists before creation
• is beside YHWH
• rejoices before Him
• and participates in creation

You’ve said it’s “just a characteristic,” but you still haven’t explained how an abstract characteristic can be “brought forth,” “stand beside,” “rejoice,” or act as a “craftsman.”

That is the question I’m asking you to answer.

[Author]

Posts