One God and One Lord

[Lightenup]

You raised several objections, but none of them actually address the point I made, so let me clarify it in the simplest possible terms.

My claim is not that Philo, Sirach, or the Targums are “Scripture.” My claim is that ancient Jews before Christianity interpreted Proverbs 8 as describing a real, personal, pre‑existent figure who comes forth from God and participates in creation.

That is a historical claim, not a theological one.

Here are the facts:

1. Philo was a Jew, not a Christian. Whether you like his Hellenized background or not, he is still a Jewish witness to how Jews in the first century understood Proverbs 8. He explicitly identifies the figure in Proverbs 8 with the divine Logos, the first‑born Son, and the agent of creation. That is simply a matter of record.

2. Sirach and Wisdom of Solomon are Jewish books written before Christianity. You don’t have to accept them as Scripture for them to show how Jews interpreted “Wisdom.” Both books describe Wisdom as pre‑existent, coming forth from God, and active in creation. Again, that is historical evidence of Jewish interpretation.

3. The Targums use “Memra” as a divine agent who creates, speaks, saves, and judges. Whether you think Memra is a substitute for YHWH or a distinct agent, it still shows that Jews believed in a personal, active intermediary associated with creation.

4. The “Two Powers in Heaven” doctrine is documented in early rabbinic literature as a Jewish belief that existed before Christianity. You may reject it, but it is still part of Jewish interpretive history.

None of these sources are Christian. They are Jewish. And they all show that the idea of a divine, pre‑existent, co‑creative figure was not invented by Christianity.

Now, if you disagree with these Jewish sources, that’s fine. But dismissing them doesn’t erase the fact that they existed and that they interpreted Proverbs 8 in a way that aligns with what I’m saying.

So let me bring this back to the actual text:

Proverbs 8 describes something that:
• comes forth from YHWH
• exists before creation
• is beside YHWH
• rejoices before Him
• and participates in creation

You’ve said it’s “just a characteristic,” but you still haven’t explained how an abstract characteristic can be “brought forth,” “stand beside,” “rejoice,” or act as a “craftsman.”

That is the question I’m asking you to answer.

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Once again, what you are sighting is “polluted”; it is not based in the Tanakh. I do not base anything on the interpretive minds of man; to site Philo as an authoritative source falls flat; he was a GREEK PHILOSOPHER who happened to be Jewish…big whoop! To site this Jew or that Jew because they believed this or that, is it true Judaism they are trying to convey? I don’t care what others believe or have taught; I care what scripture says. If what you believe is contradictory to what G-d said, it’s false. You’re justifying what you believe to be truth; when will you, or anyone, verify what they are told?

In the Prov 8 passage you’re basing everything you believe on a single word – craftsman. By using the word “craftsman” one can now find the connection to the Jesus. When the correct word is used, it points to wisdom only being present during creation. How do you not see this? Why do you reject what is in front of you?

Prove to yourself the Jesus is the true Messiah; did the Jesus fulfill what was spoken of the Messiah in the Tanakh? The simple answer is no, but you have to find it for yourself and once you do…freedom.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

There is much more than the word “craftsman” that shows wisdom is referring to a person who was with God before creation.
The Tanakh itself uses these words to show that:

• “I was born” — Proverbs 8:24
• “I was born” — Proverbs 8:25
• “From everlasting I was established” — Proverbs 8:23
• “When He established the heavens, I was there” — Proverbs 8:27
• “Then I was beside Him” — Proverbs 8:30
• “I was daily His delight” — Proverbs 8:30
• “Rejoicing always before Him” — Proverbs 8:30
• “Rejoicing in the world, His earth” — Proverbs 8:31
• “He who finds me finds life” — Proverbs 8:35
• “He who sins against me injures himself” — Proverbs 8:36

 

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Now begin reading from verse one; who is speaking throughout the entire chapter? Are you paying attention to the quotation marks? Apparently you didn’t read what I wrote on this chapter a few posts back.

Also, why are you starting toward the end of the chapter? I’ll ask again, do you begin reading a novel in the middle? If not, why do you in the bible? Why does context NOT matter?

When was the Jesus “born” before there was water or mountains? I thought he always existed.

Did the Jesus fulfill what was spoken of the Messiah in the Tanakh (link)? If the Jesus misses just one thing, can he still be considered the Messiah?

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

Proverbs 8:1 begins with the narrator of the chapter who quotes the person referred to as wisdom.

The Son was born/begotten before the creation of the depths and mountains. A birth is not a beginning of existence, a birth requires that which is born to have existed so that he could be born. The Son existed eternally within the Father, then during eternity, before creation, was begotten from the Father. The begetting was the Father’s first work before the work of creation.

Btw, I already answered as to why I began at verse 22. That is the part of the chapter that is specific to creation.

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Did you actually read the Proverb? In verse 3 it says “she cries out:” and what is she proclaiming? EVERYTHING AFTER THAT!! Grammar is your friend. Don’t forget to look out for those pesky quotation marks as she is continuing to “cry out.”

Guess again!

The Son was born/begotten before the creation of the depths and mountains. A birth is not a beginning of existence, a birth requires that which is born to have existed so that he could be born. The Son existed eternally within the Father, then during eternity, before creation, was begotten from the Father. The begetting was the Father’s first work before the work of creation.

Prove it! The Tanakh speaks nothing of G-d having a preexisting son or a son who would be the propitiation for the sins of mankind.

Still waiting for what it means when G-d said of Solomon “I will make his dynasty permanent” or “I will grant to his dynasty permanent rule over Israel”? Whose dynasty is G-d speaking of?

Still waiting for how the Jesus is the Messiah when he didn’t fulfill what was spoken that he would do when he comes.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

ACTIONS OF WISDOM IN PROVERBS 8 — FULL CHAPTER (NASB)

────────────────────────────────────────
PART 1 — PROVERBS 8:1–21
────────────────────────────────────────

1. Calls out publicly (v.1)
2. Takes her stand in prominent places (v.2)
3. Cries aloud at the city gates (v.3)
4. Calls to all humanity (v.4)
5. Commands the simple to gain prudence (v.5)
6. Speaks noble things (v.6)
7. Utters truth (v.7)
8. Speaks righteousness; nothing crooked in her words (vv.8–9)
9. Offers instruction better than silver (vv.10–11)
10. Dwells with prudence (v.12)
11. Finds knowledge and discretion (v.12)
12. Hates evil, pride, arrogance, and perverted speech (v.13)
13. Possesses counsel (v.14)
14. Possesses sound wisdom (v.14)
15. Possesses understanding (v.14)
16. Possesses strength (v.14)
17. Enables kings to reign (v.15)
18. Enables rulers to decree justice (v.15)
19. Enables princes and nobles to rule rightly (v.16)
20. Loves those who love her (v.17)
21. Is found by those who diligently seek her (v.17)
22. Possesses riches and honor (v.18)
23. Produces fruit better than gold (v.19)
24. Walks in righteousness (v.20)
25. Grants inheritance to those who love her (v.21)
26. Fills their treasuries (v.21)

────────────────────────────────────────
PART 2 — PROVERBS 8:22–36
────────────────────────────────────────

1. Was brought forth before creation (vv.22–25)
2. Was present when there were no depths or springs (v.24)
3. Was present before mountains and hills existed (v.25)
4. Was there when the earth’s fields and dust were made (v.26)
5. Was beside God when He established the heavens (v.27)
6. Was present when He inscribed the circle on the deep (v.27)
7. Was present when He made the skies above (v.28)
8. Was present when He set boundaries for the sea (v.29)
9. Was present when He marked out the foundations of the earth (v.29)
10. Was beside Him as a master workman / craftsman (v.30)
11. Was daily His delight (v.30)
12. Rejoiced always before Him (v.30)
13. Rejoiced in the world, His earth (v.31)
14. Found delight in the sons of men (v.31)
15. Calls for her children to listen (v.32)
16. Promises blessing to those who keep her ways (v.32)
17. Instructs to hear and be wise (v.33)
18. Warns not to neglect her (v.33)
19. Declares blessing on those who watch daily at her gates (v.34)
20. Declares blessing on those who wait at her doorposts (v.34)
21. Gives life to those who find her (v.35)
22. Obtains favor from the LORD for those who find her (v.35)
23. Warns that those who sin against her injure themselves (v.36)
24. States that those who hate her love death (v.36)

────────────────────────────────────────
PART 3 — HEBREW GRAMMATICAL GENDER REMINDER
────────────────────────────────────────

In Hebrew, grammatical gender follows the *form of the noun*, not the *nature of the referent*.

• A feminine noun requires feminine verbs, adjectives, and pronouns — even if the speaker is not female.
• A masculine noun requires masculine forms — even if the referent is not male.

Therefore, the feminine forms in Proverbs 8 follow the feminine noun “wisdom” (ḥokhmāh), not the metaphysical identity of the one speaking. Hebrew grammar requires agreement with the noun’s morphology, not with the speaker’s essence.

Can you admit this:

Proverbs 8 is in the Tanakh and it shows that one referred to as “Wisdom” was born of God before creation and was with God. 

Enough for now. I’m not avoiding the rest of your queries, I just want to stay focused. Let’s concentrate on this right now because it is foundational for the rest.

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Can you admit this:

Proverbs 8 is in the Tanakh and it shows that someone was born of God before creation and was with God.

The major problem with what you wrote is “someone was born of God before creation”; have no idea where you are getting that from any translation. Almost every translation I have looked at (38 on BibleHub) have either “possessed”, “acquired”, or a variation of “created”; not one of them says “born.” Wisdom was with G-d before creation is agreeable, because it was created by G-d before creation.

From the Jewish Study Bible:

22 The LORD created me at the beginning of His course as the first of His works of old. 23 In the distant past I was fashioned, at the beginning, at the origin of earth.

To answer your question, NO I can’t admit what you wrote is entirely correct; wisdom was created and NOT born. Unless you can provide evidence to support what you’re saying. So where are you going with your creation line of thought? Just ask the question.

Personally, knowing whether or not the Jesus is the true Messiah is the MOST important conversation to have; he is the foundation for christianity. Knowing whether he fulfilled what G-d said the Messiah was to do is beyond important and everything else is moot. If the Jesus isn’t the true Messiah, then everything taught and believed by christiantity is false.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

See Proverbs 8:24-25 and look at the parallel Bibles to see that the word “born” or “brought forth” is in nearly all of the versions. There you will see the evidence.

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Translations are also becoming an issue; which one are we using or is this the “battle of the translations and mine is more correct than yours”? I use a Jewish to English translation, wanting to stay as close to the original writings as possible; what do you use, is it a translation of a translation?

One of the scriptures I reference reads (8:22-25):

22 Hashem made me as the beginning of His way, before His deeds of yore. 23 I have reigned for all time: from the beginning, from before [there was] the earth. 24 When there were no depths, I was formed; when there were no pools rich with water, 25 before the mountains were settled. Before the hills, I was formed;

In this passage wisdom was “made” or “formed”; the term “born” isn’t there; see the conflict yet? To be “born” or “brought forth” is a form of creation, because it didn’t exist prior and now it does (big problem for christianity because now they have to perform great mental gymnastics to explain the Jesus has always been…yet, G-d never says he has an “‘only’ begotten son” in the Tanakh, this is NT); so how can this chapter be a reference to the Jesus?

Still waiting for your “creation” point. If your point is to say everything in the Tanakh was to point to the Jesus, claiming he is the Messiah, you’re going to have to explain what the Jesus fulfilled the Messiah was to do when he came…see how everything circles back to this one point of the Jesus being the true Messiah and all else being moot until this single point is established?

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth
You’re raising translation concerns, so let’s deal with them carefully and textually — not rhetorically.

1. “Battle of translations”? No — the issue is the Hebrew text itself.
Your Jewish translation is translating the same Hebrew verbs:
• קָנָנִי (qanani) — Qal perfect of קָנָה
• חוֹלָלְתִּי (cholalti) — Pual perfect of חוּל
The debate is not “my translation vs yours.” It’s what these Hebrew stems actually mean.

2. קָנָה does not mean “create” in Biblical Hebrew.
קָנָה overwhelmingly means “to acquire, possess, appoint, or establish.”
Examples:
• Gen 14:19 — “Possessor (קֹנֵה) of heaven and earth”
• Ps 139:13 — “You formed/possessed (קָנִיתָ) my inward parts”
• Deut 32:6 — “Is He not your Father who bought/established you?”
None of these mean “create out of nothing.” So translating קָנָנִי as “made me” is interpretive, not lexical.

3. חוּל (Pual) does mean “brought forth,” “generated,” or “caused to come forth.”
The Pual of חוּל never means “create from nothing.”
It means to bring forth from oneself — labor imagery.
Examples:
• Ps 51:5 — “In sin my mother conceived me (תְּחֹולְלֵנִי)”
• Ps 90:2 — “Before the mountains were brought forth (יֻלָּדוּ)”
• Isa 51:2 — “Sarah who bore you (חוֹלֶלְכֶם)”
Your translation’s “formed” is a smoothing choice, not a lexical one.

4. Your argument that “born = created” is not supported by Hebrew usage.
Hebrew distinguishes:
• ברא — create from nothing
• יצר — form/shape
• ילד / חול — bring forth, generate
Proverbs 8 uses חול, not ברא. If the author wanted to say “created,” he had the vocabulary to do so.

5. You keep assuming Proverbs 8 = “wisdom as an abstract concept,” but the text doesn’t say that.
The chapter personifies wisdom as:
• speaking
• calling
• standing at the gates
• having a relationship with God
• being “beside Him” (אֶצְלוֹ)
• being His “delight” (שַׁעֲשֻׁעִים)
• rejoicing before Him
• rejoicing in the sons of men
These are relational verbs, not abstract qualities.

6. You asked: “How can this refer to the Messiah?”
Because the Tanakh already presents a pre‑existent, personified agent of creation:
• Prov 30:4 — “What is His name, and what is His Son’s name?”
• Ps 33:6 — “By the word of the LORD the heavens were made”
• Ps 2 — The Son is installed, kissed, and rules the nations
• Dan 7 — The “Son of Man” comes with the clouds and receives everlasting dominion
None of these are “Greek ideas.” They’re Tanakh.

7. You keep saying “God never says He has a son in the Tanakh.”
The Tanakh literally uses the word “Son” for:
• Israel (Ex 4:22)
• Davidic king (2 Sam 7:14; Ps 2:7)
• The pre‑existent figure of Prov 30:4
The category exists. Your claim that it doesn’t is simply incorrect.

8. As for Messiah’s works — you keep assuming only one set of prophecies.
The Tanakh presents:
• a suffering, rejected figure (Isa 53; Ps 22)
• a pierced one (Zech 12:10)
• a priest‑king (Ps 110)
• a ruler from Bethlehem (Mic 5:2)
• a light to the nations (Isa 49:6)
• one who comes “suddenly to His temple” (Mal 3:1)
• one who is “cut off” before the destruction of the Second Temple (Dan 9:26)
You’re only citing the political restoration texts and ignoring the rest.

So no — nothing “circles back” to a single point. It circles back to the entire Tanakh, not a selective portion of it.

FOLLOW‑UP QUESTION:
Since you insist “born = created,” can you show a single place in the Tanakh where the Pual of חוּל (as in חוֹלָלְתִּי) means “created from nothing” rather than “brought forth / generated”? If not, then your entire argument collapses at the lexical level.

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Point 1

Sefaria

Biblehub

The Sefaria link gives the definition of: “to get, acquire, create, buy, possess”; does it say create is one of its meanings??

Clicking the Biblehub link scroll to section 1, sub a. What does that say; “of God as originating, creating” and look, does it say Prov 8:22?!?!!? Are you done beating the dead horse?!?!?

Point 2, 3, 4 Not interested in arguing words, I don’t have the time to spend; what does nitpicking their meanings bring to the conversation? Again, I don’t speak Hebrew and can only rely on how they translated the words and that’s it.

Point 5

Never once have I assumed “Proverbs 8 = “wisdom as an abstract concept”; I’ve said wisdom was a characteristic and that it was given human like qualities. Definitely NOT a reference to the Jesus.

Point 6

Where did you get the idea I said these passages where “Greek ideas”?

Point 7

I did say “only begotten son”; and not just “son.”

Point 8

Everyone of those passages I have already discussed at length and christianity has falsely taken them out of context, twisted, and injected the Jesus into the passages. Last I check this was the Hebrew bible and NOT christianity’s; what does a Jew say these passages mean?

FOLLOW‑UP QUESTION:

Can YOU show me anywhere in the Tanakh where the Messiah was going to die for the sins of mankind?

The crux of Proverbs 8 is christianity want/needs it to be about the Jesus and it simply isn’t; which is why you are delving so deep into the meanings of certain words.

Still waiting for what it means when G-d said of Solomon “I will make his dynasty permanent” or “I will grant to his dynasty permanent rule over Israel”? Whose dynasty is G-d speaking of?

Still waiting for your “creation” point.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

Regarding the dynasty concern:

SUMMARY: JESUS AND SOLOMON’S DYNASTY

Jesus did NOT come from Solomon’s dynasty biologically, but He DID come from Solomon’s dynasty legally. This distinction is essential for understanding how the Messiah fulfills both the biological and royal requirements of the Davidic covenant.

1. Biological Descent (Required for Messiahship)
• The Messiah must be a biological descendant of David (2 Sam 7:12; Ps 132:11).
• Jesus fulfills this through Mary’s genealogy (Luke 3), which traces back to David through Nathan—not Solomon.
• Therefore, Jesus is biologically Davidic, but NOT biologically from Solomon’s line.

2. Legal Kingship (Required for the Throne of David)
• Kingship in ancient Israel passed by legal right, not strictly by genetics.
• Joseph is a descendant of Solomon’s royal line (Matthew 1).
• By naming Jesus (Matt 1:25), Joseph legally adopts Him, giving Jesus:
– the legal right to David’s throne
– the legal inheritance of Solomon’s dynasty
– the royal succession required for kingship

3. Why This Matters
• Solomon’s biological dynasty was conditional (1 Chr 28:7) and ultimately failed (Jer 22:30).
• But the legal right to David’s throne still passed through Joseph’s line.
• Jesus avoids the biological curse on Solomon’s line while still inheriting the throne legally.

CONCLUSION:
Jesus is NOT biologically from Solomon’s dynasty, but He IS legally from Solomon’s dynasty through Joseph. Biological descent from David comes through Mary; legal kingship comes through Joseph. The Messiah needs both—and Jesus fulfills both.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

Regarding point 5:

You said that wisdom in Proverbs 8 is just a characteristic with human-like qualities, and definitely not a reference to Jesus. But the problem is that Proverbs 8 does not describe a characteristic. It describes a pre-existent, active, relational person.

1. Proverbs 8 uses verbs of personal agency:
Wisdom calls, speaks, loves, hates, walks, gives, rejoices, and is “brought forth.” These are not the actions of an abstract trait.

2. Wisdom is pre-existent before creation:
“Before the mountains were settled… I was brought forth” (Prov 8:25).
A characteristic cannot exist before creation.

3. Wisdom is present with God during creation:
“When He established the heavens, I was there” (8:27).
“I was beside Him as a master craftsman” (8:30).
A characteristic cannot be a craftsman or stand beside God.

4. Wisdom is the delight of God:
“I was daily His delight” (8:30).
This is relational language, not metaphorical language about an attribute.

5. Jewish interpretation before Christianity (Sirach 24, Wisdom of Solomon 7–9, Philo, Targum Jonathan) all treat Wisdom as a divine hypostasis—a personal, pre-existent agent involved in creation.

So even if you don’t believe Proverbs 8 refers to Jesus, the text itself does not support the idea that Wisdom is merely a characteristic. The passage describes a personal, pre-existent being who works with God in creation. That is why the New Testament identifies Jesus with this figure.

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

You asked: “Can you show me anywhere in the Tanakh where the Messiah was going to die for the sins of mankind?”

Yes. The Tanakh teaches this in multiple passages.

1. Isaiah 53
The Servant dies as a substitutionary sacrifice:
• “He was pierced for our transgressions” (53:5)
• “The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all” (53:6)
• “His soul makes a guilt offering” (53:10)
• “He bore the sin of many” (53:12)
This is atonement language applied to a righteous individual.

2. Daniel 9:26
“Messiah shall be cut off.”
“Cut off” is covenant-death language. Daniel places this before the destruction of the Second Temple.

3. Zechariah 12:10
“They will look on Me whom they pierced.”
This is a pierced, rejected, yet redemptive figure. The Talmud (Sukkah 52a) applies this to a dying Messiah.

4. Psalm 22
A righteous sufferer is pierced, surrounded by enemies, and dies—then is vindicated and brings salvation to “all the ends of the earth.”

5. Psalm 69
“The reproaches of those who reproached You have fallen on me.”
This is substitutionary suffering.

6. Levitical imagery
Isaiah 53 uses sacrificial terms (“guilt offering,” “bearing sin”) and applies them to a person, not an animal.

Conclusion:
The Tanakh teaches a righteous, suffering figure who dies for the sins of others, is vindicated by God, and brings salvation to Israel and the nations. This is exactly what the Messiah was expected to do.

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Jesus is NOT biologically from Solomon’s dynasty, but He IS legally from Solomon’s dynasty through Joseph. Biological descent from David comes through Mary; legal kingship comes through Joseph. The Messiah needs both—and Jesus fulfills both.

You are absolutely 100% correct that the Jesus is NOT biologically from Solomon’s dynasty and therefore CANNOT be the Messiah; everything after that you CANNOT prove with the Tanakh and is therefore mental gymnastics by christianity to “fix” the lies of the NT. Even if we could accept this “scenario” of non-biological descent, which we don’t, it’s NOT what they would have understood (a god impregnating a human woman); they understood the birds and the bees and where children came from. It’s funny how people find it ridiculous the Greek and Roman gods impregnating mortal women; but don’t you dare question the birth of the Jesus. How do you not see this?!?!?

When has the Jesus done the following?

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel 
“And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)

Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of the Jesus? What does christianity teach, that failure to believe in the Jesus condemns you to hell.

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem 
“…and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them..” (Ezekiel 37:26 – 27)

At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after the Jesus died that the Temple was destroyed! Just the opposite of this prophecy!

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace 
“…they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” (Micah 4:3)

Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

 He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments 

“My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes.” (Ezekiel 37:24)

The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy (remember there are 613 commands, not only ten).

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d 
“And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd” (Isaiah 66:23)

It says “all people”; not only those who have “accepted the Jesus.” Please, oh please, don’t tell me he’ll do all this when he returns, because I’ve never read this in the NT; what I read is judgment and hell.

If there is anything between you and G-d, wouldn’t that be called idolatry?

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

Proverbs 8 is poetry; quit making it what it isn’t. It’s wisdom personified, given human like qualities (calls, speaks, loves, hates, walks, gives, rejoices, and is “brought forth”), and that’s it! Of course wisdom was there “with” G-d before creation and “saw” everything come to be; wisdom IS G-d and not something separate from HIM. Did you read the chapter or did Grok help you? When G-d created man, HE created them in HIS image and with that you also received wisdom. You can use wisdom to make wise decisions or not, as the chapter says; do you “bring forth” or “birth” wisdom daily in your life?

Remove your Jesus goggles and see the truth…it’s freeing!

[DesireTruth]

@Lightenup,

1. Isaiah 53

Who is speaking where in this soliloquy? One must begin reading at the end of chapter 52, this is where this last “servant song” begins (why was it cut where it was…hmmm). Who is the servant (begin reading in chapter 41)? It’s not the Jesus!! Verse 10 is a tricky one to apply to the Jesus; unless of course one believes what they are told that it refers to “spiritual children”; except the word zera is used and means “descendants, seed, offspring” (that biological thing).

2. Daniel 9:26

To really understand verse 26, you have to start in verse one and why is Daniel distraught; why is he praying and lamenting before G-d that they’re still in captivity? Enter the vision, explain these 70 weeks and why this “clock” stopped at 69 and we have been waiting for 2000 year for this last week to be fulfilled. Unfortunately you’ll be waiting another 2000 years; the 70th week ended with the destruction of the Temple because of verse 24, Israel didn’t do what G-d said.

3. Zechariah 12:10

Did you read this chapter or did you parachute onto a verse you were told was about the Jesus because of the word “pierced”; and because the Jesus was pierced, this single verse has to be the Jesus? This chapter seems to be about the destruction of those who come against Jerusalem and the protection of its inhabitants, even the feeblest among them will fight like David. Then we come to the verse you claim is about the Jesus, but we just read about a battle over Jerusalem. Don’t you think there were some Israelite’s who died and of those who did, were mourned as the rest of the verse says. Context is everything!

4. Psalm 22

You realize this is a Psalm of David and is about David, right??

5. Psalm 69

Read the verses before and after to put verse 9 into context and explain how you get the Jesus! Or is this another parachute verse christianity loves?

Conclusion:

The Tanakh teaches a righteous, suffering figure who dies for the sins of others, is vindicated by God, and brings salvation to Israel and the nations. This is exactly what the Messiah was expected to do.

So G-d didn’t mean it when HE said you’re responsible for your owns sins? You have a false understanding of Isa 53. In the previous post I gave you what the Messiah is suppose to do when he comes and the Jesus didn’t do anything except be Jewish.

So when does the Jesus bring salvation to Israel and the nations in the NT? Again, I only read judgment for not believing in him. Then there’s that 1000 year reign and at the end Satan will be allowed to deceive again, apparently the Jesus didn’t do a good job leading and did the NT bible disappear so no one knows what’s coming?

Why do you think I continually say to verify what you have been told is truth?

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

You’re demanding that the Messiah fulfill every *end‑time* prophecy in His first appearance, but the Tanakh never says that. Not once. You invented that rule.

The Tanakh’s actual pattern is always the same:
first suffering/rejection,
then exaltation,
then worldwide restoration.

This is Joseph, Moses, David, the Servant in Isaiah, and the “pierced one” in Zechariah. Your timeline contradicts the Tanakh’s timeline.

Isaiah 11, Ezekiel 37, Micah 4, and Isaiah 66 are all end‑time prophecies. No Jewish commentator — Rashi, Radak, Ibn Ezra — places them in the first century. You’re demanding the final stage before acknowledging the first stage.

Daniel 9:26 literally says the Messiah is “cut off” BEFORE the Temple is destroyed. That alone destroys your argument.

Your objection about “God impregnating a woman” is irrelevant to lineage. The Tanakh already shows God creating life in the womb (Isa 7:14; Ps 139:13; Gen 21:1). And legal kingship in the Davidic line is transmitted by legal fatherhood, not DNA — that’s how every king in Judah inherited the throne.

Your “idolatry” argument collapses too. The Tanakh commands honor toward:
– the Davidic king (Psalm 2),
– the Son of Man who receives worship (Daniel 7),
– the Servant who is exalted and lifted up (Isaiah 52:13),
– the figure called “YHWH our righteousness” (Jeremiah 23:5–6).

If honoring the Messiah is idolatry, then the Tanakh commands idolatry.

So here’s the real issue:
You’re not rejecting Jesus — you’re rejecting the Tanakh’s own sequence:
suffering first, restoration later.

Show me one verse in the Tanakh that says the Messiah must fulfill all end‑time prophecies before suffering or rejection. You

[Lightenup]

@DesireTruth

Calling Proverbs 8 “just poetry” doesn’t erase what the text actually says. Hebrew poetry uses personification to reveal truth, not to hide it. And the truth in Proverbs 8 is that Wisdom is portrayed as a real, pre‑creation figure distinct from God in role and relationship.

If Wisdom “is God,” then explain why the text says:
– “YHWH acquired me” (8:22)
– “I was brought forth” (8:24–25)
– “I was beside Him” (8:30)
– “I was His craftsman” (8:30)

If Wisdom is simply God, then God acquired Himself, brought Himself forth, stood beside Himself, and acted as a craftsman to Himself. That is not monotheism — that is incoherence.

Personification does not erase meaning. Psalm 98 personifies rivers, but rivers still exist. Proverbs 8 personifies Wisdom, but the attributes described are not imaginary: pre‑existence, being brought forth, being beside God, and participating in creation.

Your “daily wisdom choices” interpretation is not in the text, not in Hebrew grammar, and not in Jewish exegesis. It’s modern self‑help language pasted onto an ancient passage.

So here’s the real question:
If Wisdom “is God,” why does the text repeatedly describe Wisdom as someone God brings forth, stands beside, and works with?

Until you can answer that, you’re not interpreting Proverbs 8 — you’re avoiding it.

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