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1. ISAIAH 53
If the servant is Israel, then explain why the servant is righteous (53:11) when Israel is repeatedly called sinful (Isa 1:4; 48:8). Explain why the servant suffers for the sins of others (53:5–6) when Israel suffers for its own sins (Isa 40:2). Explain why the servant dies (53:8–9) when Israel never dies. Explain why the nations speak in past tense about a single figure. You can’t. Your “Israel = servant” claim collapses under the text.2. DANIEL 9:26
The text says the Messiah is “cut off” BEFORE the Temple is destroyed. That alone means Messiah appears before 70 CE. Your claim that the 70th week ended at the destruction contradicts the Hebrew and the sequence given by the angel.3. ZECHARIAH 12:10
The Hebrew says: “They will look to ME whom THEY pierced.” God is speaking. The mourning is for a single figure, compared to Josiah. This is not “battle casualties.” Your interpretation ignores the grammar.4. PSALM 22
David was never pierced, never surrounded by Gentiles, never had his garments gambled over, and never “laid in the dust of death.” The psalm contains details that never happened to David. It is prophetic, not autobiographical.5. PSALM 69
The psalm describes being hated without cause, zeal for God’s house, insults falling on him, and being given vinegar to drink. David experienced some of this, but the psalm goes far beyond his life. It is prophetic, like many Davidic psalms.6. “Everyone is responsible for their own sins.”
Correct — and Isaiah 53 agrees. The servant voluntarily suffers as an intercessor, just like Moses (Ex 32:32), the high priest (Lev 16), and the righteous who atone for the land (Prov 16:6). You are rejecting the Tanakh’s own categories.7. “Jesus didn’t bring salvation.”
Irrelevant. The Tanakh says the servant is rejected first (Isa 49:7), then brings salvation (Isa 49:6), then is exalted (Isa 52:13), then is mourned (Zech 12:10). You are demanding the final stage before acknowledging the first stage.Your arguments don’t come from the Tanakh.
You’ve made it very clear who you believe the Messiah is *not*.
So let me ask the obvious question you’ve avoided:Who do you believe the Messiah is?
Not “what the Messiah will do.”
Not “why Jesus isn’t the Messiah.”
Not “what Christianity gets wrong.”
I’m asking for a name.According to your own reading of the Tanakh:
• Who is the Messiah?
• Has he already come, or is he still future?
• If he is future, what is his identity?
• If he is past, who was he?
• And if you say “we don’t know,” then how can you be certain Jesus isn’t him?You’ve rejected every candidate, every interpretation, and every Messianic text offered.
So it’s time to hear your positive claim, not just your objections.Who is the Messiah — according to you?
Desire truth. There are still some prophecy’s that Jesus will fulfill at the proper time. It will not go undone.
Few have seen the prophecy in Daniel 4 fulfilled over 100 years ago=Rev6:2–He receives his crown. The prophecy was 2520 days after the last king sat on the throne.( none sat on the throne until here at Rev 6:2) But using a year for a day in that prophecy one gets 2520 years it took= 607 bce( last king on the Throne) + 2520 years= 1914( Rev 6:2)–Rev 6:4( peace will be taken from the Earth)=ww1)–not a single war, a world war. In 1879 using that prophecy no other mortal saw, Charles Taze Russell said in the July 1879 watchtower-Peace will be taken from the Earth in 1914, because that prophecy was revealed through him.
WOW! Where do I begin with this salad bar of christianity?
You’re demanding that the Messiah fulfill every *end‑time* prophecy in His first appearance, but the Tanakh never says that. Not once. You invented that rule.
And the Tanakh DOESN’T say the Messiah was to come twice; however, your response will be, “but it doesn’t say he won’t either”; kind of a silly argument. I’m not demanding anything, just pointing out what the Tanakh says. I did give you scripture references of what the true Messiah will do when he comes, but no comments on those passages. I also asked why the NT doesn’t speak of any of the things the Messiah is to fulfill according to the Tanakh, and you gave zero response. The true Messiah will fulfill those “end-time prophecies” at the end because that’s when he’s coming and you want me to name him!??!? (continue reading)
Daniel 9:26 literally says the Messiah is “cut off” BEFORE the Temple is destroyed. That alone destroys your argument.
The Jewish term for messiah is mashiach and means “anointed one”; how many people in the Tanakh were “anointed”? There were many “messiahs”! Just because a capital letter was added to the term messiah doesn’t mean it’s a reference to the Jesus (are no capital letters in Hebrew). The Jesus dies about 40 years prior; this “messiah” most likely referred to the priestly line that ended (cut off) with the destruction of the Temple. The counting thing is another issue, who counts 7 and 62; just say 69. Reading the king Jimmy of 1611 one will find a semicolon, which separates two ideas. These are two separate time periods and two different “messiahs.”
Your arguments don’t come from the Tanakh.”
Where do you think my position comes from, if not from the Tanakh? Let’s wrap up all your christian justifications with two questions; how does Judaism understand all these passages and why is their understanding rejected? It’s their book, it was given to them and not the world?
Your last post is an interesting one.
Who do you believe the Messiah is?
How can I name someone who hasn’t come yet!??!!?? I suppose we could call him “Bob”; but that wouldn’t be very Jewish. In Judaism they call him Ben David. The better question would be has he been revealed and at this point, I’d say no (everyone will know who he is when does arrive though); his birth isn’t the focal point in the Tanakh, what he will do and what will happen when he arrives is.
You say you aren’t interested in the following:
Not “what the Messiah will do.” This is how you will know who the Messiah is or isn’t.
Not “why Jesus isn’t the Messiah.” The Jesus is a false messiah, he didn’t fulfill what was said, which why the religious leaders rejected him as the messiah.
Not “what Christianity gets wrong.” Christianity has gotten a lot wrong and this doesn’t concern you?? I forgot, the christian bible is infallible…REALLY!!! Compare the book of Hebrews to the Tanakh.
You aren’t asking the right questions; you’re parroting what you have been told is truth. Verify everything!
So it’s time to hear your positive claim, not just your objections.
Interesting, I have gone over many passages christianity claims to be about the Jesus and have given my thoughts on them; and would you believe, they have been rejected because they don’t align with the christian thought…stunned! Proverbs 8 is an excellent example. You are so stuck in the christian mind hive that you can’t see anything beyond it. Solomon wrote simple words that are easy to understand; his audience was simple and still is. What is the Jewish thought on their passage?
Below is a simple comparison of what the Tanakh says the Messiah must do, and how Jesus either fulfilled it already or is said to fulfill it in the future. This avoids going in circles and keeps everything text‑anchored.
Messianic Expectation (Tanakh) / Jesus in NT / Messianic Age Fulfillment
Born from David (Jer 23:5; 2 Sam 7)
Jesus is legally Davidic through Joseph and biologically Davidic through Mary.Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
Jesus is born in Bethlehem.Appears before 70 CE (Dan 9:26)
Jesus appears and is “cut off” before the Temple’s destruction.Rejected by Israel (Isa 49:7)
Jesus is rejected by the leaders of His generation.Suffers for others (Isa 53)
Jesus suffers, is silent, dies, is buried with the rich, and is vindicated.Pierced and later mourned (Zech 12:10)
Jesus is pierced; national mourning is future.Light to the nations (Isa 49:6)
Billions worship Israel’s God through Him.Brings the New Covenant (Jer 31:31–34)
Jesus inaugurates it at the Last Supper.Spirit‑anointed deliverer (Isa 61:1–2)
Jesus reads this and applies it to Himself.King riding a donkey (Zech 9:9)
Jesus enters Jerusalem on a donkey.Betrayed by a friend (Ps 41:9)
Jesus is betrayed by Judas.Hands and feet pierced (Ps 22:16)
Jesus is crucified.Garments divided by casting lots (Ps 22:18)
Soldiers cast lots for His clothing.Silent before oppressors (Isa 53:7)
Jesus remains silent before Pilate.Buried with the rich (Isa 53:9)
Jesus is buried in Joseph of Arimathea’s tomb.Not left to decay (Ps 16:10)
Jesus is raised.Exalted to God’s right hand (Dan 7:13–14)
Jesus ascends and receives authority.Regathers Israel (Isa 11)
Fulfilled at His return.Brings worldwide peace (Micah 4)
Fulfilled in the Messianic age.All nations worship God (Isa 66:23)
Fulfilled in the new creation.This is why the Tanakh’s pattern is always the same: suffering first, restoration later. Some prophecies must happen before 70 CE, some during His suffering, and some at the end of the age. Jesus is the only figure who fits the entire pattern.
At this point, I’ve laid out the Tanakh’s expectations and how Jesus fulfills the entire pattern — suffering first, restoration later. You’re free to disagree, but I’m not going to continue repeating the same points in circles.
I’ve presented the texts, the timeline, and the pattern. You’ve presented your interpretation. Readers can decide for themselves which view aligns more closely with the Tanakh.
With that, I’m stepping out of this exchange for now.
For anyone following this exchange, I want to offer a brief summary so the main point doesn’t get lost in the back‑and‑forth.
The Tanakh presents a consistent pattern for God’s chosen figures: suffering or rejection first, followed by vindication and restoration. This pattern appears in Joseph, Moses, David, the Servant in Isaiah, and the pierced one in Zechariah. It is not a Christian invention — it is the rhythm of the Hebrew Scriptures themselves.
When the Messianic prophecies are placed side‑by‑side, they naturally divide into two categories:
1. Prophecies that must occur before the destruction of the Second Temple (Dan 9:26).
2. Prophecies that belong to the final age of restoration (Isa 11; Mic 4; Isa 66).Jesus is the only figure in history who fulfills the first category and is positioned to fulfill the second. That is why I believe He is the Messiah — not because of tradition, but because of the Tanakh’s own structure, timeline, and pattern.
I’ve presented the texts and the reasoning as clearly as I can. Others are free to weigh the evidence and reach their own conclusions.
0 doubt in all creation, Jesus IS the Messiah. He told those spiritual leaders back in his day-Your Father is the devil-Why? Because they were apostatized, They listened to Law( but added too many burdens along with those laws) their hearts were haughty, not humble as should have been.
Everything you posted is from a christian perspective; what about the Jewish? Again, it is their scripture; wouldn’t they be the authority on what it says?
Amen, Jesus is the Messiah! I set up a one-on-one discussion with you to discuss and share our beliefs. I’m not a JW but always like to discuss the distinctions. If interested, go to the discussion here: https://heavennet.net/forums/topic/lightenup-keith-discussion/#post-948050
Hope to see you there,
Lightenup (LU)
Desire truth–Jesus said the Israelite spiritual leaders father was the devil. It has not changed as long as they reject the Messiah.
The Old Testament does not explicitly say the Messiah comes twice. But there appears to be two phases in the prophecies. A suffering and rejection, then later glory and kingship. Judaism generally does not read these as two separate comings of the same Messiah, whereas logically speaking, it would normally take at least two phases.
Rejected
Isaiah 53
The servant is rejected, suffers, is pierced, and bears the sins of many.Psalm 22
A righteous sufferer is mocked and surrounded by enemies.Zechariah 12:10
“They shall look upon me whom they have pierced…”Daniel 9:26
“Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself…”Victorious
Daniel 7:13–14
One like a son of man receives everlasting dominion.Isaiah 9:6–7
A royal child rules on David’s throne with justice and peace.Psalm 110
The Lord’s chosen king rules at God’s right hand.Zechariah 14
The Lord comes in victory and reigns as king over all the earth.So yes, two phases can explain all of it.
@Kieth,
Where we left of I asked if you could provide a passage that says the innocent can take the responsibility of the guilty. I also asked to provide a passage where G-d says he was sending someone to take on the sins mankind and be a moderator on their behalf (G-d only spoke in the Tanakh, so it has to be found there and not in the NT). Have you had time to ponder any of this?
@Kieth,
Jesus said the Israelite spiritual leaders father was the devil. It has not changed as long as they reject the Messiah.
Why did the religious leaders reject the Jesus?
They listened to Law( but added to many burdens along with those laws) their hearts were haughty, not humble as should have been.
What examples do you have of them adding to the law; Moses warned of adding or taking away from the law (Deut 4:2). There hearts were “haughty” and not “humble”, where do we read this?
The Old Testament does not explicitly say the Messiah comes twice.
Absolutely, so why do you believe the Jesus will come twice?
But there appears to be two phases in the prophecies. A suffering and rejection, then later glory and kingship.
“Suffering and rejection” of whom; to be later awarded “glory and kingship”? The suffering I read is the punishment Israel and Jacob receive due to disobedience to G-d’s commands and statutes and restoration when they return to G-d.
Judaism generally does not read these as two separate comings of the same Messiah, whereas logically speaking, it would normally take at least two phases.
“Logically speaking”, why would/should it take “two phases”; didn’t all this take place in the last days of the Jesus? Didn’t he “suffer” and was “rejected”; crucified, and upon his resurrection, raised in “glory” and “crowned king”? So when does he do all that was prophesied the Messiah is to do?
All those passages you claim point to the Jesus, are you reading them in the context they were written or believing what you were told?
Verify everything!
Desiretruth- Its called justice– A perfect mortal man sinned and lost a good standing with God for all his descendants. Justice = A perfect mortal man lived a sinless existence, yet paid in full the wages of sin he did not owe= the ransom sacrifice. This opened the door to all mankind to go in through the narrow gate and have an opportunity to live forever in Gods kingdom. God applies justice to all his dealings-perfect justice.
Desiretruth–They rejected Jesus because they had haughty hearts and he told them they were wrong on many counts. A mere carpenters son telling the elite spiritual leaders they were wrong.
desiretruth— Jesus healed on the sabbath- They thought it was not allowed. The apostles picked grains of wheat on the sabbath, they thought it was not allowed. They twisted things.
Its called justice– A perfect mortal man sinned and lost a good standing with God for all his descendants.
Adam was punished for his sin, but did G-d reject him for it? NO!!
Justice = A perfect mortal man lived a sinless existence, yet paid in full the wages of sin he did not owe= the ransom sacrifice.
Are you saying the Jesus lived a “sinless” life?!?!? Did he honor his father and mother by disappearing? How about destroying a heard of hog by running them into the sea to drown (a cities food source), or how about over turning tables in the Temple court and driving the people and animals out. G-d has something to say about destroying other people’s property. Sinless…LAUGHABLE!
Let’s go back to where we left off, where did G-d say the innocent are responsible for the guilt of another? I’ll give you a hint, YOU are responsible for your wickedness and NO ONE can be a substitute for your wrong doings! In fact Moses tried it and G-d said NOPE!! (Ex 32:31-24 READ IT!!)
This opened the door to all mankind to go in through the narrow gate and have an opportunity to live forever in Gods kingdom. God applies justice to all his dealings-perfect justice.
When G-d said to repent, turn from your wickedness, and HE’LL remember it no more wasn’t good enough? Sounds simple to me; why would I need anyone other than G-d?
Check your religion, are they telling you truth? Verify everything!!!
They rejected Jesus because they had haughty hearts and he told them they were wrong on many counts. A mere carpenters son telling the elite spiritual leaders they were wrong.
Or maybe (start nodding your head) the Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah and failed on every account and they knew it. Like in Ps 110 where the Jesus supposedly confused the religious leaders with “the Lord said to my lord”; you don’t think a Jewish religious leader didn’t speak Hebrew and know what this passage meant?!? This is a Psalm to/for David NOT by David. The modern translations intentionally changed the meaning.
Jesus healed on the sabbath- They thought it was not allowed. The apostles picked grains of wheat on the sabbath, they thought it was not allowed. They twisted things.
Do we ever get in the Tanakh where it defines what work is or are we getting the writers interpretive take on the situation?
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