@DesireTruth

Proverbs 8:1 begins with the narrator of the chapter who quotes the person referred to as wisdom.

The Son was born/begotten before the creation of the depths and mountains. A birth is not a beginning of existence, a birth requires that which is born to have existed so that he could be born. The Son existed eternally within the…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

There is much more than the word “craftsman” that shows wisdom is referring to a person who was with God before creation.
The Tanakh itself uses these words to show that:

• “I was born” — Proverbs 8:24
• “I was born” — Proverbs 8:25
• “From everlasting I was established” — Proverbs 8:23
• “When He established the heavens, I was…[Read more]

You raised several objections, but none of them actually address the point I made, so let me clarify it in the simplest possible terms.

My claim is not that Philo, Sirach, or the Targums are “Scripture.” My claim is that ancient Jews before Christianity interpreted Proverbs 8 as describing a real, personal, pre‑existent figure who comes forth…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Just to clarify: the idea that Proverbs 8 describes a divine, pre‑existent figure who participates in creation is not a Christian invention. Multiple ancient Jewish sources — long before Christianity — interpreted it that way.

Philo of Alexandria (20 BC–AD 50), a Jewish philosopher, explicitly identified the figure in Proverb…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

I mentioned the part of the chapter that was dealing with the topic of creation because that is what we were discussing.

Also I addressed your point about “wisdom” being feminine to tell you that just because Hebrew words have a gender for their grammatical construction doesn’t really mean anything significant when the noun is inani…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Let me just start here with my reply. You don’t seem to understand how Hebrew works when using gender specific nouns.

The Hebrew noun for “wisdom” (חָכְמָה) is grammatically feminine, but grammatical gender in Hebrew
belongs to the noun, not to the real identity of the figure being represented.
Hebrew routinely personifies…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Here is my clear statement about Proverbs 8:

Even if we acknowledge that Proverbs 8 uses poetic personification, the text still describes “wisdom” as something that comes forth from YHWH, exists before creation, is with YHWH before anything is made, stands beside Him, and participates in creation as a craftsman. Those are the act…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

I believe that the “wisdom” in Prov 8:22+ represents the literal only begotten Son of YHVH who YHVH the Father identifies as the YHVH who all things were made through and for. They are united as one Holy Spirit that is sent to dwell in all true believers, bringing the fellowship of both the Father and the Son of God to them.

@DesireTruth

Thanks for asking. Here’s the follow‑up question I’m trying to get to:

If Proverbs 8 describes a being who comes forth from God, is with God before creation, stands beside God, and participates in creation as a craftsman, then how do you interpret that figure within the Tanakh?

In other words: what is this being, according to your…[Read more]

@DesireTruth
I hear what you’re saying, and I’m not trying to analyze you or your journey. I’m only trying to stay focused on this specific textual question to establish a foundation from which to build on.

You said the answer to all three creation questions is “no,” so let me stay with that one point. My goal isn’t to defend church tradition o…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

I want to start by acknowledging something important about your story. You’ve shared that you spent forty years in Christian churches, raising sincere questions about the relationship between the Tanakh and the New Testament — and that your pastor and fellow churchgoers didn’t give you meaningful answers. I can understand how disco…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

You keep asserting that the Messiah must be biologically descended from Solomon, and that God cannot have an only‑begotten Son. But you have not shown where the Tanakh says either of these things.

So let me ask directly:

1. Where does the Tanakh say the Messiah must come from Solomon specifically?
2. Where does the Tanakh say God c…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

You keep asserting that God cannot have an only‑begotten Son, but you have not shown where the Tanakh says this. So let me ask directly:

Where does the Tanakh say that God cannot have a Son?
Where does it say God cannot beget?
Where does it say God cannot send His Son?
Where does it say God cannot reveal Himself through His S…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Proverbs 30:4 is a riddle about the identity of a divine figure. Agur asks who ascends and descends from heaven, who gathers the wind, who wraps the waters, and who established the earth. These are all divine actions in the Tanakh. Then he asks: “What is His name, and what is His Son’s name?”

The “Son” cannot be Israel or Solomon,…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

When God says He will make Solomon’s dynasty “permanent,” He does not mean an endless biological chain of Solomon’s sons ruling on earth.

The Tanakh itself shows Solomon’s line collapsed: the kingdom split, the monarchy ended, foreign powers deposed kings, Jehoiachin was cursed, and no son of Solomon ruled after the exile. If “perma…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

It’s the desire and love of God and His truth that takes me where I go, not stubbornness nor fear.

@DesireTruth

I’m going to stay with the text and ignore the personal comments. You asked for Tanakh support for the statements I made, so here are the passages.

1. “God sent His Son” — Tanakh foundation
The Tanakh repeatedly speaks of a divine figure sent by God who is distinct from God yet shares His nature.

– Prov 30:4 — “What is His name,…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

God the Father sent His only begotten Son into the world as a bond servant, fully man while still remaining eternally divine,  as the promised Messiah. Born of the seed of Abraham through Mary who married Joseph. The Messiah is sitting at the right hand of the Father who will put all His enemies under His feet.

@DesireTruth

Jesus is a legal heir to the dynasty, Jesus is a biological heir of David.

Both are true.

@Keith

I don’t believe that we have communicated before now. Nice to “meet” you. Do you agree that Jesus is a son in Solomon’s line legally by adoption with Joseph and biologically through Nathan and eventually through Mary?