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Eternity is the absence of time, the infinite, eternal I AM transcends time and space.
The phrase “in the beginning” is a philosophical construct used for purposes of communicating sequential relationship to the finite mind that exists in time, there was no beginning of the I AM, the existential Father-Son-Spirit trinity nor their creative offspring, the Paradise Creator Sons and associated spirit counterparts.
But when one is limited by the things that men wrote in the Bible Idol, he can’t learn anything knew. It’s like using old scientific text books from the year 800 to understand physics, or using the charts of 6,000 BC to sail to North America.
Colter, when you start preaching your disdain for the Bible and love for your book, you are not sticking to the subject but are spamming your unwanted view. The rules stipulate no spamming and/or no steering the topic away from its original subject. We allow diversions if they are ultimately helpful to the topic at hand.
You are free to post your unbelief of scripture in the Skeptics Area which is the point of having this category. This is the appropriate place to tell us about your unbelief in scripture and belief in the Urantia.
This is the Believers Area. This area is for posts that are angled toward belief in God, his son Jesus, and what the scriptures teach us about them.
If you continue to change the subject or post in unrelated topics, I will have no choice but to ban you from posting.
Last chance.
T.
Was the Holy Spirit also created?
Was the Word also created?
Was the spirit of love also created?
Was truth also created?
What about God’s wisdom,is it also created,or was it in God from everlasting?
wakeup.
John 1:3 NRSV ©
All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being.The Greek text says all things “came into existence” through him, and apart from him “nothing came into existence”.
Lots of questions could be asked here. Does a robot exist?
I feel you are trying to blur the meaning of created and begotten. They are obviously two different words and are applied in different situations. And scripture goes to great lengths to teach us that Jesus is the only begotten, and yet I do not see the same effort put anywhere that says that the Word was created. Or that Jesus is the ‘first creature’.
Both mean to exist, but one is via the Word and the other is directly from, and not via.
When my mother brought me into the world, I was begotten of her and because of her I came to exist. Man is created by God through the Word, that also means existence.
Adam was created by God and Eve via Adam. Subsequent men were begotten by their parents. Yet we all exist. The word ‘created’ does not have the monopoly on existence. If that was the case, then God would not exist.
t8, your interpretation of the scriptures is just one of many other completely conflicting interpretations even on this tiny forum. Others who also believe in God and God the Son, don’t see you as having a monopoly on the truth. Long before the scripture was written men and women had faith in a personal God.
Take care
Mike,
The Preexistant law teaching is actually a variation of the same argument I have made previously. It is a known teaching from the first teaching unlike most people use. It also fits the facts. Both Wikipedia and the Jewish Libraries spoke about it. Philo, like, John called it logos. Jeremiah spoke of a time when it would be written on the hearts of and put in God’s people.
You call it a sideshow instead of addressing it with reason for your own reasons.
Colter.
If the Holy bible was not from God;then we are wasting our time seeking,
and obeying the laws.Jesus resurrection is just some persons imagination.
Lets live have much fun, for tomorrow we die.
wakeup.
kerwin wrote:Mike,
The Preexistant law teaching is actually a variation of the same argument I have made previously. It is a known teaching from the first teaching unlike most people use. It also fits the facts. Both Wikipedia and the Jewish Libraries spoke about it. Philo, like, John called it logos. Jeremiah spoke of a time when it would be written on the hearts of and put in God’s people.
You call it a sideshow instead of addressing it with reason for your own reasons.
I call it a sideshow because before I make my first move, I already know what your next five moves are going to be.
Kerwin, didn’t Philo call the logos a “demigod”? And isn’t a demigod a half man half deity being? Wasn’t Jesus both a god and a man?
Now, about the “characteristics” of this “preexisting Law of God”………… did this Law come to earth to serve others as their slave? Did this Law show humility? Did this Law come as God’s sacrificial lamb – to die for our sins? Is this Law the thing that John the Baptist came to testify about, and bear witness to? Is this Law the thing about which John said he was unworthy to untie the sandals? All these things and many more need to align, Kerwin. All those things align with Jesus, but not with some “preexisting Law”.
Plus, I could go on for days with more things, Kerwin. But for what? So you can post even more bizarre and hard to fathom theories that don’t amount to anything? So you are right that I’m not discussing it “for my own reasons”. But those reasons are that I just don’t have the patience to wade through any more of your bizarre theories.
I know the Word in John 1, 1 John 1, and Rev 19 is Jesus. I have shown you the same using many scriptures and much of my time. You don’t want to believe, and so you won’t. That’s your choice. But it is my choice to not waste any more of my time trying to show you something that you will never allow yourself to accept.
t8 wrote:I feel you are trying to blur the meaning of created and begotten. They are obviously two different words and are applied in different situations.
They are two of MANY different words that convey the same exact thing, ie: “something or someone was brought forth into existence”.
You haven’t addressed the point of my last post, t8. YOU said that the Word “came into existence by God”. And John 1:3 says that apart from the Word, NOTHING came into existence.
How do you explain this conundrum?
I did explain it. He was begotten not created. Both bring about existence, one directly from, the other via the Word. Jesus as the Word of God was begotten. Whereas you and me were created, that is, our coming to exist is not by being born directly of God, but by God through the Word and then further being begotten of our parents.
We are made/created in the image of God, but Yeshua is The Image of God, not a created image as we are. This is the sort of distinction that begotten vs created brings out. Blurring the meaning takes away from Christ’s uniqueness and makes him exclusively one of us, albeit the first us. Instead, we are to become like him. Sure he came as one of us, but that was a rescue mission so he could make us like him. He is the only begotten son and he will bring many sons with him.
By the way, I cannot find that debate we had regarding this subject. Do you know where it is exactly? Perhaps we can continue there as this subject may be helpful for this topic, but it is somewhat taking over from that topic.
🙂
T8…….Mike is wrong also about the word something , conveying the same as the word someone, something coveys an object causing and action, while someone conveys a person, (something) can mean anything, while (someone) is specific to a person.
Another point here is about the word image, if God created us in his image , them we EXIST in his IMAGE , just as Jesus did. There is no separation of Jesus ‘ existence on this earth then ours. The only difference between him and the rest of mankind was he had the fullness of the spirit of God. If he were different then us, scripture could not have said ,”UNTIL we “ALL” Come to the MEASURE, and the “FULNESS” of the STATURE of CHRIST.
Jesus was the first, from the human race from mankind, to attain the exact goal God the Father has for us all, he is a prototype of what we are to become, and not one ounce of deference in what he has attained and what we can, and with Gods help will. HE IS THE “FIRST” OF MANY BRETHREN , to attain the Goal God the Father has in mind for us all. IMO
peace and and love to you and yours……………………………….gene
Christ is much more than you make out Gene.
- While we may attain fullness in Christ, he has the fullness of God;
- We may sit with Christ on his throne, he sits with God on his throne;
- While we are the branches, he is the vine;
- While we may be sons of God, he is THE son of God;
- While we are made in God’s image, he is THE image of God.
- While we are created, he is the only begotten of the Father.
Jesus said: “Eternal life is this, that they may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he sent”. To claim to know someone and then to be willingly ignorant of many aspects of that person, does raise the suspicion that one does not care to know that person. Just saying.
Geneb.
You are speaking of Jesus.
We are discussing the Word,before he was made flesh.
God’s own breath made flesh.
God’s own breath was given a form unto God’s own image.
Everything was made by the breath of God.
His breath is His speech, and His speech is His Word.
Long after creation, the Word was made flesh,and is called by the name Jesus.
He was made like unto His brethren.
wakeup.
Mikeb.
That some one you speak of, that was brought forth was the existing Word.
That someone was God’s own breath; only now given a form
Unto God’s own image.
The breath of God transformed from one shape to another shape.
And God’s own breath was not created.
God’s own spirit was also not created.
wakeup.
t8 wrote:I did explain it. He was begotten not created.
And you said that by being “begotten”, the Word “came into existence by God”, right?
And John 1:3 says that apart from the Word, NOTHING “came into existence”, right?
So by repeating the same thing – “begotten, not created!” – you are not addressing the fact that the Word DID “come into existence”, and how that works in light of John 1:3.
Forget “begotten” for a minute. Forget “created”. Forget “fathered”, “born”, “was given birth”, “was made”. Forget ALL OF THOSE THINGS for a minute. Focus ONLY on “CAME INTO EXISTENCE”, because that is the Greek phrase written in John 1:3.
New International Version
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.New Living Translation
God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.English Standard Version
All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.New American Standard Bible
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.King James Bible
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Holman Christian Standard Bible
All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.International Standard Version
Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.NET Bible
All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Everything was in his hand, and without him not even one thing existed of the things that existed.GOD’S WORD® Translation
Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him.Jubilee Bible 2000
All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.King James 2000 Bible
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.American King James Version
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.American Standard Version
All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.Douay-Rheims Bible
All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.Darby Bible Translation
All things received being through him, and without him not one [thing] received being which has received being.English Revised Version
All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.Webster’s Bible Translation
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Weymouth New Testament
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing that exists came into being.World English Bible
All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made.Young’s Literal Translation
all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.Let’s see. We have from the above translations:
- created
- made
- came into being
- received
- happened
The most popular word is made and I think second place goes to created. A number of translations say something to the tube of ‘come into being, but they are the minority. So created and made is what I believe it is saying. As for being, I wikied it and got the following meaning:
Being is an extremely broad concept encompassing objective and subjective features of reality and existence. Anything that partakes in being is also called a “being”, though often this use is limited to entities that have subjectivity (as in the expression “human being”).
One translation from the Bible Hub list says, ‘came into existence’ as you say it means.
However, I do not see the word ‘begotten’ in any translation here, suggesting that it may not be as interchangeable as you think. Further, if begotten and created are completely interchangeable, then Jesus being the only begotten of the Father means that he is the only created of the Father. Clearly this is not right. The very fact that we have the word ‘only’ suggests strongly that ‘created’ is not a good meaning for ‘begotten’.
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