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Gene,
You are confusing the symbol of a rock used in one passage with the same symbol used in another.
God is the rock of the people before and after Jesus’ church came to be. There was no reason to lay that foundation again in order to build the church. Peter expressed his faith the Jesus is the Christ, the chief Son of the Living God. For that Jesus named him the rock. Even though he bears the name of the rock Peter is not the rock upon Jesus builds his church nor is God, who is the foundation that already was laid. The rock that the church is built on is faith that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. If no faith in God then no Jesus Christ. If no faith in Jesus Christ then no church.
T8…….There is only ONE true rock. And that is GOD THE FATHER
The word ‘rock’ has certain meanings like ‘solid platform’. Of course God is the only rock when you compare him with others.
But the word rock can be used of other things too. If you do not believe that, then Jesus shouldn’t have renamed Simon to Peter (Petros). And we are living stones too.
Sure God is the big rock, but that doesn’t disallow other uses of rock or stone in different contexts and remember that there are literal rocks too that are not false rocks.
Now take a look at Matthew 7:24-27. We are told to build our house on the rock. And yes you could argue that we should build our lives on God. That is true. But the verse actually tells you what the meaning of rock in the verse is. Let’s take a look:
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
The rock here is symbolic of hearing the words of Jesus Christ and doing what he said. If you disagree, then take the argument up with Jesus Christ as he is the one who said this.
T8…..The words of Jesus, were not “HIS” words, but the words of him who sent him, and that was GOD THE FATHER, he is the only true ROCK, so it is HIS WORDS, we are to build our foundation on not JESUS’ words, the same applies, as the FATHER IS THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD.
peace and love to you and yours. …………….gene
To all……HERE IS A GOOD EXAMPLE I BELIEVE, the sun is the source of the light on this earth, if i say the moon is also a source of that light, i would be wrong, because the moon simply reflects the light “from” the sun, so it is with JESUS, and all true sons of GOD are as stars, and AS JESUS, REFLECT the light OF GOD, BUT WE ARE NOT THE SOURCE OF IT, GOD IS, WE SIMPLY REFLECT IT. IMO
peace and love to you all and yours. ……………..gene
Gene,
The sun moon is false analogy as the use of the word “rock” is symbolic. As t8 points out “rock” symbolized obedience to Jesus’ teaching and terrarica points out it symbolizes the kingdom of heaven in yet another one.
It is also considers details that Scripture ignores as in Genesis 1:14-16 both the sun and the moon are called lights. The only difference is one is called the greater light and the other is called the lesser light. Scientists have discovered the moon reflects the light but God did not care to teach us that.
Hi AndrewAD:
The scripture states that “they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them” , and that rock was Christ. So, what is the “spiritual rock that they drank”? Are you saying that they drank the incarnate Jesus?
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Gene:
You are correct in saying that the Words that Jesus spoke did not originate with him, but Gene, he is the rock because he obeyed the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross.
And each of us, including the Apostle Peter whose name was changed to “Peter or Pertros” which defined is “a rock or a stone” because he and we are also rocks, or living stones being built on the foundation that was laid and together are the temple of the living God if we are obeying the Word of God, and the Holy Ghost dwells within us.
Love in Christ,
MartyYes Marty,it was spiritual and literal drinking of spiritual and literal waters and it was Paul’s Christ .
All blessings to thee and thine!!
Hi AndrewAD:
So, the incarnate Christ was spiritual and literal waters that they drank?
Don’t you think that this spiritual drink was “the Word of God that was preached to them”?
Take a look at the following scripture:
Hebrews 4Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
4 We may fear, then, lest a promise being left of entering into His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short,
2 for we also are having good news proclaimed, even as they, but the word heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard,
3 for we do enter into the rest — we who did believe, as He said, `So I sware in My anger, If they shall enter into My rest — ;’ and yet the works were done from the foundation of the world,
4 for He spake in a certain place concerning the seventh [day] thus: `And God did rest in the seventh day from all His works;’
5 and in this [place] again, `If they shall enter into My rest — ;’
6 since then, it remaineth for certain to enter into it, and those who did first hear good news entered not in because of unbelief —
7 again He doth limitCompare the the above scripture to 1 Co. 10 in context:
10 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
2 and all to Moses were baptized in the cloud, and in the sea;
3 and all the same spiritual food did eat,
4 and all the same spiritual drink did drink, for they were drinking of a spiritual rock following them, and the rock was the Christ;
5 but in the most of them God was not well pleased, for they were strewn in the wilderness,
6 and those things became types of us, for our not passionately desiring evil things, as also these did desire.
7 Neither become ye idolaters, as certain of them, as it hath been written, `The people sat down to eat and to drink, and stood up to play;’(So, what do you think AndrewAD, is this what the Apostle Paul was speaking of?)
Love in Christ,
MartyT8…..The words of Jesus, were not “HIS” words, but the words of him who sent him, and that was GOD THE FATHER, he is the only true ROCK, so it is HIS WORDS, we are to build our foundation on not JESUS’ words, the same applies, as the FATHER IS THE “ONLY” TRUE GOD.
Your denial of Jesus teaching did not go unnoticed Gene. Jesus always spoke that which is Father spoke, so yes they are the Father’s words. But that doesn’t negate that the rock in that verse was symbolic of hearing the words of Jesus Christ who spoke in accordance with the Father.
The rock here is not God himself is it Gene, whether God spoke through him or not.
Matthew 7:24-27
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”See that. It is not talking about God as the rock, but hearing the words and then doing them.
If you stubbornly insist that the rock in this passage is God himself, then please explain to me who ‘sand’ is?
Rock is God, Sand is?
T8…..IF YOU HEAR THE WORDS OF JESUS, you are hearing the words of God the Father, because what do you think Jesus meant when he said clearly the words he was speaking to us were “NOT” HIS WORDS, BUT THE WORDS OF HIM WHO SENT HIM? And again ,”the son of man can do nothing of or from himself”, and again, “he that has seen me has not seen me, but the FATHER WHO HAS SENT ME”, and again “if you do not believe the Father is “In” me, then believe in the MIRCALES”. and again, “the son of man can so “nothing” of himself, the FATHER that is “IN” HIM “HE” DOES THE WORKS.”
THE “ROCK” IS THE POWER OF GOD, CAUSING THE REAVELATION AND CONVICTION OF THE TRUTH “IN” THE MIND OF THOSE WHO HE IS CALLING. And that is the “ROCK” that Chrst Jesus is buildibg the church on, and the gates of hell can not prevail against it. It is not Jesus himself or Peter, but God the Father, he alone is the “ONLY TRUE ROCK”. Haven’t you read where Jesus clearly said, “NO” MAN “CAN”, COME UNTO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER DRAW HIM.
T8 what you and others are doing is robbing God the Father, and paying JESUS and others. While there is no other “true” foundation that can be layed, which will indure, then that which has been laid, the “whole” building is a work of GOD and fitted together by him no matter who he uses to build on it with, they are all his laborers, called and chosen by him alone. He alone is the ROCK all the true builders trust in him, as their “ROCK “AND GOD, and that includes Jesus, and the apostles and all true believers also. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
Marty……JESUS DID NOT EVER SAY HE WAS A ROCK, WHAT HE SAID WAS “upon “THIS” rock he would build the church,” that Rock was God the Fathers power to get into the minds of people and reaveal the truth to them, just like GOD did to Peter, Jesus was not talking about himself or Peter. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
T8…..IF YOU HEAR THE WORDS OF JESUS, you are hearing the words of God the Father, because what do you think Jesus meant when he said clearly the words he was speaking to us were “NOT” HIS WORDS, BUT THE WORDS OF HIM WHO SENT HIM?
Gene, your mind seems to be clouded as you are unable to see the obvious. Yes what you say is true, but the rock in this context is still about those Jesus said: “who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. In case there was any doubt he further said: “But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand“.
So if God is the rock in this passage of scripture, then who is the sand? Is that the Devil? See how silly your stubbornness is?
There is no excuse for not hearing Jesus own words which are as you point out the words of the Father. Just accept his words as they are and let them teach you and develop your theology on these pillars of truth, rather than stick to your guns and interpret everything through your own foundational lens.
A person who loves God and his son also loves truth. If we are not truthful, then that is a reflection of what we really think about God and his son. If the word ‘rock’ is used in different ways like the word ‘water’ for example, then red each scripture in context and try and learn the truth of the parable rather than sticking with a man-made tenet and making everything fit your own understanding. After all, this is what those who forward the Trinity Doctrine do. Why do the same? Stubbornness is for goats, not sheep.
Marty……JESUS DID NOT EVER SAY HE WAS A ROCK, WHAT HE SAID WAS “upon “THIS” rock he would build the church,” that Rock was God the Fathers power to get into the minds of people and reaveal the truth to them, just like GOD did to Peter, Jesus was not talking about himself or Peter. IMO
Your opinion is wrong. It was the confession Peter made as to who Jesus is. And Jesus built his Church on that truth. There you are again starting with your own theology and making scripture fit your view. Please stop this. A warning is given about those who oppose this. Guess the identity. The answer is the “Gates of Hell” will not overcome it. So it is from Hell itself to try. Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice. Stop being stubborn like a goat and become a sheep that hears his voice. Being obstinate is bad fruit that reflects a bad root or at least a troubled heart.
T8…..You should heed your own words if you ask me, Jesus ask Peter who he thought he was, and Peter replied, you are christ the son of the LIVING GOD , and Jesus responed saying, blessed are you Simon Barjona, ( now please pay attation) for “flesh and blood” , did not reaveal that unto you (Jesus was flesh and blood), but MY Father who is in heaven has “reavealed” it unto you, Jesus was not the one who reavealed who he was unto Peter, it was God the Father himself that did, and Jesus went on to say this, and i say you, you are Peter, (another words, Jesus had reveling knowledge from GOD also, and by that, he know who Peter was also, it was by that same reveling knowledge, from GOD the Father) and he reconized who Peter was to, it was exactly the same power that enabled Peter to reconize who he was.
THAT was the “ROCK”, THAT JESUS SAID HE WOULD BUILD THE CHURCH ON, IT WAS THE POWER OF GOD THE FATHER TO REAVEAL IN THE MIND OF PEOPLE WHO HE WAS, THAT IS EXACTLY WHY JESUS SAID “NO” MAN “CAN” COME UNTO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER “DRAW” HIM. GOD THE FATHER DRAWS US TO JESUS BY REAVEALING WHO JESUS IS the same as HE DID PETER. HE IS THE ROCK JESUS TRUSTED IN TO BUILD THE CHURCH.
The “ROCK” that builds the church is GOD THE FATHER, I BELIEVE YOU ARE BEING THE GOAT on this one T8, NOT ME. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …………….gene
THAT was the “ROCK”, THAT JESUS SAID HE WOULD BUILD THE CHURCH ON, IT WAS THE POWER OF GOD THE FATHER TO REAVEAL IN THE MIND OF PEOPLE WHO HE WAS
Stubborn to the end by the look of it. You are allowed to disagree with Jesus words, but we know that HE indeed speaks but only what he hears the Father saying. That means he still speaks, but in accordance with the Father’s will. So yes his words are indeed God’s words but that was never in question, so no need to bring that up as if we were debating that.
What was questioned is your assumption that this rock and other rocks mentioned are all God the Father himself. We have clearly showed you otherwise. Either humble yourself and admit that this is not the case, or continue on like a goat. I am picking that you will act like a goat. But I would also like to be proved wrong on that.
T8…….What I was addressing was what JESUS SAID TO PETER CONCERNING THE SCRIPTURES I QUOTED, NOW YOU HAVE BROADENED IT TO TAKE IN EVERY TIME THE WORD ROCK IS MENTIONED IN SCRIPTURE, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT. LIKE where God brought water out of the rock for the childern of ISREAL IN THE WILDERNESS, ANY FOOL KNOWS THAT. I AM SPEAKING ABOUT SPECIFIC SCRIPTURES, LIKE where JESUS TOLD PETER WHAT HE WOULD BUILD THE CHURCH ON, AND THAT WAS THE ROCK I AM ADDRESSING HERE AND THAT ROCK WAD THE “POWER” OF GOD THE FATHER TO GET INTO THE MINDS OF PEOPLE AND REAVEAL THE TRUTH TO THEM, AND THAT WAS WHAT JESUS WAD GOING TOBUILD THE CHURCH ON.
I BELIEVE EVERYONE HERE KNOWS THAT, EXCEPT YOU IT APPEARS. THE SPECIFIC PLACES I MENTIONED IN SCRIPTURES CLEARLY SHOW GOD THE FATHER IS THE ROCK BEING MENTIONED THERE, I EVEN LISTED THOSES SCRIPTURES FOR ALL TO SEE where GOD was the ROCK being mentioned. GO BACK AND READ THEM AND SEE IF THEY ARE NOT REFERENCING TO GOD HIMSELF, BEFORE YOU BEGAIN YOUR PERSONAL ASULTS ON ME, AND SHOW ME WHERE I HAVE EVER SAID EVERY TIME THE WORD ROCK IS USED IN SCRIPTURES it “ALWAYS” REPRESENT GOD THE FATHER. Your accusitory words against me fit you more accurately if you ask me.
peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene
T8…..ANOTHER POINT, even IN SCRIPTURE JESUS IS PORTRAYED AS A GOAT, THE “ESCAPE GOAT” WHO WAS LEAD OUT INTO THE WILDERNES TO DIE, FOR THE SIN OF PEOPLE. SO GOATS ARE NOT ALWAY BAD IN SCRIPTURES, NOR ARE THEY PORTRAYED AS STUBBORN EITHER. AT LEAST I CAN’T RECALL ANY PLACE WHERE THEY ARE.
YOU ASSUME A LOT OF THINGS T8,LIKE JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON THIS EARTH ALSO. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …………..gene
Hi Gene:
When anyone builds a building, it is built upon a foundation, and Jesus stated that he would build his church upon “this rock”. So, is he speaking about building his church upon a foundation. I believe that he is based upon this scripture:
Matthew 7:
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And so, specifically, the rock are “the sayings that came from God through him”, and I stated that “he is the rock in that he obeyed the Word of God unto death on the cross”.
If the foundation is the rock upon that church is to be built, this is what the scripture state:
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus ChristBut the scriptures state that “In the beginning was the Word”, and so, God has spoken to humanity from the beginning, and the scriptures state:
Ephesians 2:
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
And
Hebrews 1King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
But when the Apostle Paul speaks “that those in the wilderness ate and drank of the spiritual rock that followed them”, he is not speaking of some pre-existent Jesus Christ, but all of the scriptures point to the Word of God that would be fulfilled through him. The Exodus, the baptism unto Moses, the passover lamb, the unleavened bread, the Ten Commandments, the Manna from heaven and so forth. All of this was what would be fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It is the Word of God that was symbolically and prophetically spoke about Jesus Christ.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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