Upon this rock, Jesus Christ built his Church

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,

Yes the Saviour had Ben born.

But his role as Saviour could not begin till his anointing.

[Ed J]

Kerwin and Nick, you can disagree that Jesus Christ came in the flesh all you like, that is your choice.

Hi T8,

I believe what they are saying is that Jesus came in the flesh, then later Christ came in the flesh.
But as T8 has been attempting to point out (Nick, Kerwin, and Gene), that is not what this verse says.

Here is the context…

“Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is
of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God” (1John 4:2-3)

The context here suggests that the event was simultaneous, rather than two separate occurrences. Further,
T8 has has also been pointing out that THOSE WORDS DON’T EVEN ALLOW for your particular interpretation!

_______________
God bless
Ed J
PS. miss the gas-mask avatar

[kerwin]

t8,

Are you dodging a straightforward challenge to interpret your words to agree with Scripture or are you in a hurry and missed what I wrote in my last post? It is my impression it is the first.

I strive to explain my words and so destroy but you just insist your are true even though I point out where they disagree with Scripture. That is not a show of faith. It is instead suspension of disbelief in your own words.

“Be conscientious about how you live and what you teach. Persevere in this, because by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.”. (1 Timothy 4:16 New English Translation (NET Bible))

[Proclaimer]

Thanks Edj.

Nick, if you really believe that on the say of his birth that Jesus was the savior, Christ, and Lord, then why do you persecute me for believing that?

Your whole focus was to prove my belief that he was the Christ at birth as wrong. Now you agree with what I have been saying all a long. And you believe it because you had no choice. It was either tow the line or be seen as the one opposing the scriptures I pointed out. So is that it. I am off your hook? lol. Or is there more accusations to come?

Kerwin, I am not sure what you are saying.

Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ. That Jesus who was born in a manger was the Christ and the Lord. Yes / No. You have previously said no. Do you keep that stance or will you let scripture have its way?

An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people.

Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

 

[kerwin]

Ed J,

There are two verses that state two similar but different concepts.

1 John 4:2New English Translation (NET Bible)

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus as the Christ who has come in the flesh is from God,

and

2 John 7New English Translation (NET Bible)

7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, people who do not confess Jesus as Christ coming in the flesh. This person is the deceiver and the antichrist!

The AV of the King James does not have the same disagreement though the Koine Greek does.

1 John 4:2Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

2 John 7Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

The difference may be translators understanding of the main verb of the sentence which seems to be the present tense confess to me as “Jesus is come/as coming in the flesh” is a teaching.

Even though some translations interpret it as present tense I do not use as proof because it is controversial.

My actual point. that t8 refuses to address, is that all human beings come in the flesh or they would be naked souls. He also does not explain how empty and come in agree with one another. This reveals he is not comfortable with what he proclaims.

[kerwin]

t8,

Kerwin, I am not sure what you are saying.

I am saying Scripture explicitly claims Jesus was made King because he chose to give his life upon the cross. That occurred well after his birth. The wise men called Jesus King of Israel before he actually was king just like God called Abraham the father of many nations before he was the father of many nations.

I am associating the title Christ with the title king because that is the reason Jesus is anointed according to the promise to David.

I already pointed out God is known to call things that will happen as if they already did since he called Abraham the father of many nations before he actually became the father of many nations.

There is more Scriptures than what you wrote that have a bearing on this discussion. From what I see you are jumping to conclusion which is a common error.

[Proclaimer]

My actual point. that t8 refuses to address, is that all human beings come in the flesh or they would be naked souls. He also does not explain how empty and come in agree with one another. This reveals he is not comfortable with what he proclaims.

Not sure what you are getting at and all that stuff about being uncomfortable means nothing till I know what it is you are saying.

Yes we are flesh too. But Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Nick actually says that Jesus is not the Christ, rather is just a man devoid of the Spirit. But at Jordan he recieved that spirit or anointing to become Jesus Christ. But the angel declared that at his birth that he was the Christ, savior, and Lord. So I am not uncomfortable about anything here because I am agreeing with the angel’s proclamation.

Further,  to confess means to “agree with” or “say the same thing as.” So why do you guys oppose me when I say the same thing as:

Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

And Jesus Christ came in the flesh. When exactly did he come in the flesh? When he was born a baby as testified by the angel quoted above.

1 John 4:2
Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God

See other translations. They too say ‘Jesus Christ’ is come in the flesh.
http://biblehub.com/1_john/4-2.htm

2 John 1:7
I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

See other translations. They too say ‘Jesus Christ’ is come in the flesh.
http://biblehub.com/2_john/1-7.htm

As for empty. Well he existed in the form of God, he emptied himself and came in the flesh. Obviously there is an emptying of privilege and power or a downgrade so to speak. Especially if you existed with the Father in glory and then being born a baby in a manger in what may have been a third world country by our standards today. It could mean many things. In a way, we take nothing with us when we die. We cannot take our bank account, fancy car, or beautiful house. We arrive empty handed accept for the works built on the sure foundation. Perhaps he laid aside for a time his knowledge etc, to become like us, innocent and knowing very little. Jesus had to increase in wisdom and stature and even learned obedience. However, he is now back in that glory that he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

[Proclaimer]

Okay, just noticed your post. It looks clear, so I will address it probably tomorrow. It is 1 o’clock in the morning here now.

[kerwin]

t8,

Nick interprets John’s words spiritually and though I do not think that was John’s intent it is still a true interpretation.

Spiritual interpretation is that Jesus does not literally come and dwell in a believe but rather it is the Spirit he walked by that comes and dwells in a believer.

Jesus speaks in the same manner when he claims I am in the Father and the Father is in me.

Essentially he is claiming he walks according to the same Spirit that God does.

Nick is thus applying the same method of speech to John’s words.

I instead interpret John’s in a more traditional manner as I use the idea Paul expresses that the human soul dwells in a tabernacle of flesh to interpret them. The traditional interpretation believes he was addressing Gnostic that literally denied he was flesh. It can be applied to other false teachings by the fact that false teaching intrinsically teach another Christ or no Christ.

Your view seems to be that Jesus is a spirit that inhabited flesh or perhaps you believe the words “come in the flesh” are incomprehensible words that only apply to Jesus. I am guessing based on your words and lack of explanations.

[kerwin]

t8,

I understand.

I am five hours later than you.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8….What KERWIN, NICK, AND I, have BEEN TRYING to tell you, is the TRUTH, Jesus as A CHILD was not yet “the Christo’s,” “CHRIST”, nor the Lord, nor the savior, at his human berth, that was his prophesied fate. Those things concerning him did apply to him, but only applied to him at berth, in a prophetic sense, untill it actually took place.

Why is that so hard for you to come to see brother?

peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

[Proclaimer]

Because Gene, an angel of God proclaimed something completely different to what you guys teach.

An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people.

Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

I am of course going to accept this angel’s testimony over yours.

It seems that some of you seem to repeatedly come to opposite conclusions of verses that are not hard to grasp. ‘Opposite’ and ‘Anti’ are synonyms Gene. Seriously guys, you can easily change any meaning by adding an extra word or two.

And who is it that talks in such subtle terms? It is Satan. He said to Eve, “You will not die”. And guess what? Eve didn’t die when she ate the fruit, technically speaking. Not right away at least. All this garb that some of you add to scripture only serves to change the meaning, and in many cases to the exact opposite meaning. I have tested the spirit behind some of the teachings from some members here and it is Anti what the text actually says. For example:

---

Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord
becomes:
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he WILL BECOME the Messiah, in the last three years of his life.

---

Jesus said: “Before Abraham, I am”.
becomes:
Jesus said: “Before Abraham, I WASN’T”.

---

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
becomes
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He DIDN”T exist in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

---

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
becomes:
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you IN YOUR MIND ONLY before the world began.

---

Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God
becomes:
Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus THE MAN ONLY is come in the flesh, is of God

---

I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
becomes:
I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus THE MAN as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

---

If you are going to tell me that the Angel called Jesus the Christ that day, BUT was not the Christ, then that would be a definition of Antichrist would it not? One who is proclaimed as the Christ but is not the Christ. From one error many others can follow.

[Proclaimer]

Kerwin, why is it then that I am opposed by you, Nick, and Gene when I proclaim exactly the same message as that angel of God? Can you not see that you guys are doing that? It should have been obvious to all of you in the first place. Regardless of why he was called the messiah, the truth is that he was born the messiah. Otherwise you are changing the true proclamation and events.

Subtle smooth words that I have heard from you guys to debunk the Angel’s message is no different to what Satan said to Eve. “You shall not die”. If I was debating that eating from the tree of good and evil resulted in death, I could imagine hearing the smooth words, “ye shall not die”. So let’s say I believe that and eat. Guess what, I am still alive, you guys would be right, you have your victory. But then…

Smooth talk and opposing the text, what the angel said, or what God says, is not wise. It is wise to hold the words of truth in one’s heart and to not sway to the subtle smooth talk of those who technically change the meaning one precept at a time.

The Kingdom of God belongs to children and the innocent. They do not play around with words like adults have learned to do. Out of the mouth of babes… The Devil is in the details…

[NickHassan]

Hi T8,

Yet the rock that the church was built on

was men hearing the Spirit of God.

?

[NickHassan]

Hi T8,

You brand us with being the author of concepts we have not presented.

Have you understood nothing of what we have said about the Spirit?

[kerwin]

t9,

Kerwin, why is it then that I am opposed by you, Nick, and Gene when I proclaim exactly the same message as that angel of God?

1) You seem to lack knowledge of the fact that natural languages are implicitly ambiguous or would not insist there is only one possible interpretation of a set of words with backing it up with either written or unwritten context.
2) There is no disagreement over the words spoken by the angel. The disagreement is over the meaning of those words.

Here is a test on interpretation: Which is correct?

Genesis 17:5Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

1. a) Abraham was already a father of many nations at the time God spoke these words.
2. b) God was speaking of the future as if it had already occurred.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8….I know you do not realize it but you are doing eactly what you accuse us of. You seening this just like Satan wants you to, the way most all Christendom sees it. I TRIED TO SHOW EVERYONE HOW Satan want to make Jesus different then an ordinary human being by his teachings, the DOCTRINE OF SEPERATION, NOW IF YOU PARTICIPATE in those same teachings are you not really serving him, even if you don’ realize it, nearly all christanity doesn’t realize they are serving Satan, by preaching his teachings that make Jesus different then we are. It completely destorts the plan and purpose of JESUS COMMING INTO HIS EXISTENCE “EXACTLY” AS WE HAVE, WITHOUT AN ONCE OF DIFFERENCE THEN US. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY HE COULD HAVE DEMENSTRATERD God the Father POWER IN HUMAN KIND. T8….JESUS WAS SIMPLY A SECOND ADAM, WHO, with the help of God the Father was able to come to what the Father has in mind for us all.

If you drive Jesus away from your “exact” idenity with him, by making him different then you are , you can not have the same faith in God to achieve exactly what Jesus has, by not being able to equate yourself with him, and that is exactly what Satan wants us all to think.

Kerwin, Nick ,and I, am three wittiness here telling you the truth brother.

peace and love to you and yours ……..gene

[Proclaimer]

Kerwin, perhaps you are not up to speed with what is being debated. We are not debating any denial from myself that Jesus was baptised at the Jordan and the Spirit descended on him, but Nick and others including yourself (I think) that say Jesus was not born the Christ, the son of God, and the King of Israel.

If you are debating that I deny the Spirit that descended on Jesus at the Jordan, then it is because you believe Nick’s false accusations toward me. These accusations are not true. Check for yourself. I think he invented that idea to take the heat off him denying that Jesus was born the Christ. Or it could just be a case of him relying on his own understanding and thus deluding himself.

Anyway, this topic is about the rock that Jesus built his Church on. I let topics go off subject in the last two months, but I can see it is very hard to find posts now that they have become scattered. I would appreciate if we all (including myself) could stick to the subject of each topic again. It makes it easier for people searching on a subject to find relevant content. Thanks in advance. There are plenty of topics out there that can cater for any subject and we create new ones if they don’t exist. There is also a search function too.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,

So the rock is the ability to hear the Father as Jesus told us.

Those who do so become more like Jesus Christ.

 

Do you think we should strive to follow him in this way or did he have advantages over us?

[Proclaimer]

Did Gene teach you that the rock was hearing the Father?

Yes he has advantages over us, he was born without sin for a start. But he was also baptised in a way that we will not.

“You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?”

So definitely not saying he had it easy or easier than us. Quite the opposite. Salvation is a free gift given to us because of the work of the cross.

[Author]

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