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Hi Dig4,
Is.53.1
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
For he grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of parched ground: he has no stately form or majesty
that we should look upon him, nor appearance that we should be attracted to him.
He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face, he was despised and we did not esteem him.
Is 42.1
Behold My servant, whom I uphold, My chosen one in whom My soul delights.
I have put My Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations.
It is all the work of God by His Spirit in a chosen human vessel.
My work shows up best in weak vessels.
Gene: “Jesus’ glory was a “prophesied” glory, that he “now” has, GO AND READ HEB 2: 6-11, and see if you can see any difference between Jesus’ present glory and our “prophesied” glory. When you have done that then get back to me and we can take it from there. It’s not a question of me belittling Jesus, it’s a question of you belittling mankind. JESUS said over 80 times he was a SON OF MAN, you either believe that or not, and if you truly believe that then you would not try to seperate him from his brothers and sisters.”
There was really only two short scriptures that I used to back up my claim. A good response should have reasoned with them.
Concerning Heb 11, are you referring to the part that says, “for a little while lower than the angels“?
If so then I must ask again, does this sound like us?
Nick, again you have not answered directly. Is Yeshua just a man? You do get points for mentioning Isa 53 though.
Yes, Yeshua was a man and the Servant of the Father but He was not just a man.
Phil 2:6-8 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Hi Dig4truth,
You: “Concerning Heb 11, are you referring to the part that says, “for a little while lower than the angels“?
If so then I must ask again, does this sound like us?
Yes, Yeshua was a man and the Servant of the Father but He was not just a man.”
Phil 2:6-8 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Me: We are told directly many times that Jesus was and IS a Human Being.
Psalms 8:1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
The LORD visited the human being Jesus, He placed His Spirit upon this human being without measure. Jesus rose from the dead a human being, we are told he is returning as the son of a human being. Upon his rising we are told he received glory. It is to a human being that the LORD has given all dominion to, the LORD has given this human over to have dominion over His works. All things have been placed under the feet of a human being that the LORD visited.
DO NOT read any passage without keeping it in the context of the unity of the true faith as Paul tells us, which is in believing that Jesus is a perfect human being. Any ideas apart from this are false, they are against Christ, the anointed human being.
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
So keeping what is the unity of our faith intact READ Philippians 2! As well, recall the history of men, where they have many times been given gifts of God, but then declared it as their own greatness. They would receive wisdom and with that wisdom came power and wealth, and they would often declare themselves as a god. There were men anointed with God’s Spirit given powers, baptized into the Spirit given gifts to heal, to give prophecy, etc..with these gifts they needed to KEEP the MIND of Christ, which was to give all glory to the one true Almighty God and none to themselves, and perform works according to God’s will and not their own.
Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Dig4truth, do you see what is being said? It is extremely important, it is exactly why we bow and confess that Jesus is our master to the glory of God. Jesus having been anointed with God’s Spirit had all the powers of God, but he did not use them for himself, he did not declare himself as a god, instead he told us that he was doing nothing through himself, he said that he himself was not even good, that only God is good. Instead of using those powers to declare himself as great, he gave all the glory to God. He remained a servant following God’s will. With all those powers he humbled himself and was obedient even unto death, where he could have saved himself.
HOW was Jesus in the FORM of God? Jesus the human being anointed with God’s Spirit, he was in the form of God because he had all the powers of God. He might as well been God as he didn’t just have God’s powers but he ONLY used those powers according to how God wanted him to.
How was Jesus made in likeness of men? He was a human being able to be tempted like all men are tempted, but yet he remained without sin. This is so significant Dig4truth, Jesus received amazing powers of which he could have used for himself, and he was tempted to do so, but he denied all temptation and followed the will of God only remaining a humble servant.
When you do not KEEP the unity of our faith in tact you wind up tossed to and fro by all different doctrines. You end up misinterpreting many passages. I am witness to such by so many on this forum.
Hi Jodi, it’s not likely that we will ever see eye to eye on this but I appreciate your effort.
John 1:1-5, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Dig4truth……Jodi is right.
D4T…..There has been a lot of research on the scripture where it says” for when he was in the fom of God he thought it not robbery to be equal with God”. The research I once read, concluded that scripture to be written this way, “for when he was in the form of God he thought not to rob God to make himself equal with GOD” , AND I THINK THAT IS A MORE ACCURATE INTERPRETATION.
You might say how could that happen? Easely, by just letting the people go ahead and think that he was the one doing all those mircales that GOD THE Father was doing “through” him. Let me show you an example of that almost happening, JESUS told Mary or Martha, ” did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God”. You see if Jesus would let that statement stand, THEY COULD HAVE EASELY THOUGHT THAT JESUS WAS THE GOD THAT WAS RAISING LAZARUS, but notice what Jesus said right after he said that, ” Father the only reason I said that, was so they might believe you sent me.”, notice how quickly Jesus explain his reason for making that statement to God the Father.
He was not like Moses who broke faith with God at the waters of Merbia , which cost him his chance to go into the promise land. Jesus made sure he didn’t make that same mistake Moses did by stealing glory from GOD.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Gene, the fact that Yeshua didn’t do these miracles of His own initiative does not negate His deity. Isn’t that what the scriptures say? He emptied Himself and became a servant, He spoke only what He heard the Father speak, He obeyed His Father’s commands, etc. In short He came to be a servant. He came to be obedient in place of our rebellion.
Hi Dig4truth,
I’m disappointed in your response.
Could you address Ephesians 4? …where our unity of faith is to be held in that Jesus is a perfect human being, and so because he was the full measure stature of an anointing of God’s Spirit.
Also you gave no response to how I have used scripture and kept Ephesians 4 in it’s truth for Philippians 2.
You replied with,
“Hi Jodi, it’s not likely that we will ever see eye to eye on this but I appreciate your effort.
John 1:1-5, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
Thanks for appreciating my effort! Maybe I can change your mind!
I am going to read John 1 ALSO holding onto Ephesians 4 as our unity of faith, and understand it through that passage as well as others. I am not going to deny all that scripture says and I will understand John 1 in a manner that is NOT contrary to Ephesians 4.
What we know from scripture is that God promised before He created the world eternal life to mankind. We see that He had given Abraham a promise and David a promise, that of their lineage all nations would be blessed. What we also know from Isaiah is that a servant from among the brethren of the tribe of Judah God would anoint with His Spirit giving him wisdom, understanding and knowledge. Then he would be sent out having that anointing to preach the coming kingdom of God, to heal, to set captives free. We are also told that from heaven, meaning from God would come to man the bread of life, and this bread that came from God was the FLESH of Jesus. We are also told that whatever God desires is truth, it becomes fulfilled. We are even told that if God declares something will happen it is as if it already exists because it’s a sure thing!
In the FLESH of Jesus God’s Word was fulfilled. In the anointing of Jesus’s flesh the Word of God was being fulfilled. In the beginning God knew that He would anoint a human being with His Spirit and bring him into perfection, and by the death of this perfect human being people would be saved from their sins. Jesus existed in the WORD of God in the beginning, he did not pre-exist. God was able to declare the end before He made the beginning, and everything was made through this END, which was eternal life to human beings through a human being. When God spoke and the earth and man was created it was all being created for the firstborn of the dead, the firstborn HUMAN BEING given eternal life.
As we are told the WORD of God was given to the prophets, but in later days it came through the anointed man Jesus. Moses spoke the words of God, as he too had been anointed with God’s Spirit to be able to speak God’s words, and he spoke as a prophet about the coming Messiah who would be like him. Jesus did not say I spoke to Moses in times past, he said that Moses spoke about him giving prophesy. Likewise Jesus reads from Isaiah and he says that he is the person who Isaiah gave prophesy about.
Just absolutely absurd to try and say that Jesus pre-existed as some being that was the Word, because by Jesus’s own words such could not be true. He identified himself as the MAN the prophets spoke about through God revealing it to them. He did not identify himself as pre-existing giving them the Word of truth. He is the one who fulfilled the Words spoken about him. We are really to believe that Jesus pre-existed as the Word, but then as a human being he needed God to anoint him to be able to speak God’s words?
Jesus says that he could do nothing of himself, he speaks what God gives him, and that he is fulfilling the words that were given to the prophets.
I am not going to read John 1 and understand it according to the traditions of men, according to the ideas of Plato that were so popular when pagan converts decided to create Christian doctrine under their love for Greek ideas.
I am going to read John 1 through the words of the prophets, and through what Jesus himself declared.
When you interpret a passage and say it is saying pre-existence you destroy the significance of what is actually being said. You are not only distracting people away from what is our unity of faith suppose to be in, but you are leading people away from the actual message that is revealing something profound.
The purpose of Christ was to bring people into believing in and having faith in the One True God YHWH. Through God fulfilling His Word that He spoke from the beginning, through His Words being fulfilled that the prophets spoke, through His words spoken by Jesus, it gives us faith in the One True God. With that faith we then have our hope, that as God raised the human being Jesus from the dead, we too shall RISE as he rose having eternal life.
T8…..by preaching Jesus was born with the anointing spirit, and he was not baptized inorder to recieve it, then that put in the ranks of an anti-anointing, or ANTICHRIST person . What you are saying in effect is Jesus was not a true human being, who would need to be anointed with God’s spirit as we have to be. You also preach he prexisted as some kind of being other then a human being, so in conclusion, you deny his comming into existence “exactly” as we flesh and blood being do, then you deny that he, as we needed to be anointed after our berth.
Gene, you will not find a post from me saying what you are saying I am saying.
I’m keeping it simple and it drives you and Nick nuts.
Have the same mindset as Christ Jesus who existed with the nature of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh or human likeness, chose to be a humble servant, and was obedient even dying on a cross for the sins of humanity. Now God has exalted him to the highest place in the glory he had with God before the cosmos. FOr us Believers we declare that Jesus Christ is Lord, the son of God, and the of course as the title suggests, he is the messiah. He was born the messiah in Bethlehem and he was born as the lord.
While I can substantiate all this with multiple scriptures, you guys are trying wrestle away half of what I have said because you have a different view to scripture.
Thus what are we to conclude? Nick says you need the Spirit, but he teaches against this, so what Spirit is he talking about exactly? Further, he denies that Jesus was the Christ for most of his life and he also denies outright that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
How do you guys think we should react to this.
Right Jodi, your mind isn’t made up at all. : 0
I don’t debate what Scrioture clearly states, there is no need to. But please continue to look into this yourself.
John 20:27-29 Then He *said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
Dig4ruth…….GOD WAS “IN” JESUS, That never made him a God, no more then it would make you a God if God who “is” spirit was “in” you. But GOD’S presence would be there, so Thomas finely got it, “MY lord “AND” GOD. If Thomas was meaning Jesus was God, he would have simply said my LORD GOD, he would not have added the word “and” in what he said. The apostles had to come to realize God the Father was indeed “in” Jesus just like Jesus said, but again that never made Jesus the God that was in him doing the works him. If Jesus was God, why would he need the Father to be “in” him in the first place and why would he need to be anointed with the spirit of God if he were already a God? Many have bought into many false teachings.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Hi Gene
Your the one that belive like the Gnostic. Gene for one you keep trying to prove from Hebrews 2:6-11is speaking that Jesus “is just a man” it’s apparent you don’t have a clue what the phrase “the son of man” or “Jesus” mean. That’s why I never responded to your post on this subject. To deny all other scriptures that tell us what the phrase “the son of man” and Jesus mean’s is right out ignoring the Bible as a whole. Apparently your either blinded or out right trying to teach false doctrine. I think if you really wanted to know the meaning of these phrases you would search the Scriptures which apparently you haven’t. And you should check out how some of the Gnostic belived the same thing as you “Jesus is just a man” and at His baptismal God adopted Him. You can look up Adoptionism and the Gnostic. Or your so blinded that you just can’t search scriptures and let them show you what they want . Gene you have to have a open mind to God’s Word.
Later
Hi Jodi
You said:
When you interpret a passage and say it is saying pre-existence you destroy the significance of what is actually being said. You are not only distracting people away from what is our unity of faith suppose to be in, but you are leading people away from the actual message that is revealing something profound.
Hi Dig, you said:
Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus *said to him
Rather than craft a post about this, I poinyvyoubto the following page.
Hi Jodi
What do you think about this scripture? Do you think He Jesus had the glory before the world was
Yes or no
John 17:5And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.Jodi
You said: You are not only distracting people away from what is our unity of faith
If you think that our unity of faith is making out that Jesus Christ ” is just a man” then you have a whole lot to learn. Later
Hi Anthony,
The man JESUS OF NAZARETH did not exist before the earth from which man was partly created did.
But the Spirit of Christ did.
The Word.
Anthony, I share your frustration. With all the scriptural evidence to support Yeshua’s deity you have to try very hard to ignore it. To suggest as Gene has that a Jewish believer in the first century would call Someone “God” goes against all credulity. Their main quote was the Shama which ends with “the Lord (God) is one”. No Hebrew believer at that time would believe in more than one God and no believer would call a man God! It would not matter how perfect he was.
Also, to suggest that Yeshua would accept the praise of God for Himself if He were not deity would be a sin since God does not share His glory with another. And on and on it goes but as you have seen, to no avail.
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