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Hi Gadam,
John 8:2 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Psalms 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
John 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
Jesus didn’t say that he saw Abraham, he said that Abraham saw him, his day, and he rejoiced and was glad over the prophecy that he saw.
VERY SIMPLE BIBLICAL FACT Gadam, BEFORE Abraham was, before Abraham even existed, in God’s WORD all things were made by reason of and for Jesus, the firstborn from the dead who would become higher than the kings of the earth. Abraham wouldn’t even have existed if it weren’t for the man Jesus Christ. Before Abraham was, his own seed was declared greater than he and Abraham rejoiced in that truth.
Before Abraham was, the man Jesus was THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD according to God’s Word.
Hi Gadam,
I have time this evening to cover one more.
John 17: 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
With, Para- of 51, with 42, from 24
Are we so ignorant that we do not know of the Word of God that He declared from the beginning? Are we so blind that we cannot apply clear given truths from one scripture to another? God not only declared the End from the Beginning, but He wants to make sure that we know that He did! By such YHVH’s great power, righteousness and glory is displayed.
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Jesus KNEW the Word of God that was from the beginning and he had faith in it, which was why he went to the cross.
Jesus was asking God in John 17:5 for God to fulfill His Word concerning him, that was before the world was.
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
THIS IS PROPHECY FULFILLED, the Word of God made true. Jesus had received the Spirit and was sent out into the world to do the works of God that would in turn glorify God. He finished that work.
Then Jesus asks for another prophecy to be fulfilled that we read in the next verse, his own glory dying for the sins of the world and being resurrected as a firstborn of many brethren made a king of kings.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had of thee before the world was.
This was God’s Word from the beginning,
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
1 Chronicles 17:14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. 15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
Jesus KNEW who he was! Even after he ascended from the grave, he told his disciples to read the OT scriptures concerning him.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them. 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Gadam, it would be quite interesting to hear your comments regarding Isaiah 48, especially the highlighted above, which is a clear reference to a mysterious being, and this mysterious being is talking about another “HIM” and about Himself that He spoke in the very beginning, that He was there, and that the Lord God hath sent
Hi Carmel, thanks for your reply to my post to Jodi. In fact I have already commented on Isaiah 48 earlier on this Forum. Isaiah 48:
14 Assemble, all of you, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
he shall perform his purpose on Babylon,
and his arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken and called him,
I have brought him, and he will prosper in his way.
16 Draw near to me, hear this!
From the beginning I have not spoken in secret,
from the time it came to be I have been there.
And now the Lord God has sent me and his spirit.Isiah 48:14-16 is clearly talking about Cyrus the Persian Emperor whom God Yahweh raised against the Kingdom of Babylon. I am sorry to say that it’s your imagination that the above passage is talking about Jesus. This is the problem with Christianity.
VERY SIMPLE BIBLICAL FACT Gadam, BEFORE Abraham was, before Abraham even existed, in God’s WORD all things were made by reason of and for Jesus, the firstborn from the dead who would become higher than the kings of the earth. Abraham wouldn’t even have existed if it weren’t for the man Jesus Christ. Before Abraham was, his own seed was declared greater than he and Abraham rejoiced in that truth.
Hi Sis Jodi, thanks for your lengthy replies to my post above. But I am not convinced by your replies on negating Jesus’ preexistence. One is such an example of your replies. The writer of the Fourth Gospel never meant about Jesus’ resurrection in this passage. This is the problem with Unitarianism as they simply misinterpret the NT to suit their strange ideas. Col 1:15-17 is another example.
Jesus KNEW who he was! Even after he ascended from the grave, he told his disciples to read the OT scriptures concerning him.
The above are the words of NT writers and Christianity stating that Jesus had fulfilled the Prophecies of Hebrew Bible. In fact this is a continuous debate on another thread “The Jewish Messiah” If you want you can participate in the lengthy debates on Jesus’ Messiahship. Jesus had not fulfilled any of the promised Messianic requirements which the Hebrew Bible contains. I have already quoted major texts on promised Messiah as per the Hebrew Bible in my earlier post.
Hi Gadam,
I AM represents Jesus’s purpose, and that purpose was ordained by God of Jesus before the world was. Before Abraham was, Jesus by God’s WORD was the light of the world, the light of life and immortality, why we are also told that YHVH made everything by reason of and for him.
Jesus was greater than father Abraham, such was YHVH’s word before Abraham was. Why was he greater?… Jesus told them ” I am the light of the world”, where he brings forth “the light of life”.
I AM represents who Jesus is, the light of the world, which was ordained of God before the world was and before Abraham was. This is why Jesus says “before Abraham was, I AM”.
Apparently it’s an issue, it’s wrong to apply Jesus’s own words to his own words that actually appear in the same chapter. I am sorry, but I find it ridiculous to try and say that verse 12 has nothing to do with verse 58.
and all scripture unites,
2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Hi Gadam,
Jesus is not dead, he is sitting at God’s right hand returning to fulfill all OT prophecies concerning him.
Hi Gadam,
Jesus is not dead, he is sitting at God’s right hand returning to fulfill all OT prophecies concerning him.
Hi Jodi, thanks for your replies to my posts. But I am not convinced on your explanation on John 8:58. The writer of Fourth Gospel was not talking about the pre-eminence of Jesus to Abraham but he was talking about his pre-existence prior to Abraham in that verse.
Yes Jesus may not be dead as per the NT and Christianity but there is no concept of second coming for Messiah in the Hebrew Bible. It’s purely the invention of the NT writers.
Hi Gadam,
Below speaks of the Messiah dying for our transgressions where he then lives again and is given a portion with the great and is ordained to divide the spoil with the strong.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Below is OT scripture that speaks of the Messiah coming and declaring that there will be a coming day of vengeance of YHVH,
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted*, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
OT scripture about the day of the LORD,
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Below is OT scripture that speaks of the Messiah as he who fulfills the coming day of YHVH,
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Gadam,
We have OT scripture of a Messiah coming and PREACHING about a COMING day of YHVH.
We have OT scripture of the Messiah dying and coming to life again.
We have OT scripture telling us that it is the Messiah who fulfills the promised coming day of YHVH.
He comes and preaches and he comes later and fulfills that which he preached.
Hi Gadam,
Below speaks of the Messiah dying for our transgressions where he then lives again and is given a portion with the great and is ordained to divide the spoil with the strong.
Hi Jodi, I know you will quote Isaiah 53 for showing us about the dying Messiah. In fact Isaiah’s Servant songs are not about any Messiah but about Jacob or the nation of Israel. Here are few arguments of Jewish people on Isaiah 53;
“Christian Missionaries misleadingly assert that the entire chapter 53 of the book of Isaiah refers to Jesus as the “Suffering Servant” of God who dies for the sins of the world. Someone could easily be fooled to believe this argument if Isaiah is read out of context and without a proper translation. At this point, take out a Tanach and turn to Isaiah 52 and read straight through 53, then proceed further:
If you read the text correctly, Isaiah is clearly telling us how the nations of the world will react when they witness the future messianic-redemption of the Jewish people. (Throughout the book of Isaiah, the Jewish people are referred to as the “Servant of G-d” and in the singular, e.g. Isaiah 41:8, Isaiah 49:3). First, they will be astonished, literally covering their mouths at what they see, because they never believed that they would witness the glorious redemption of a persecuted, rejected and despised Israel – which they themselves persecuted! Then, they will try to understand why this newly exalted Israel suffered so much. Originally they believed it was because G-d had rejected the Jews. Now that they see that this is not true, they will say that the suffering was the result of the transgressions of the nations (themselves) who persecuted the Jewish people.
While it is useful to share the entire chapter with the students, if time is of the essence the major mistranslations to focus on are these two:
1.“He [Israel] was wounded because of (מ) our [the nations] transgression.” (Isaiah 53:5). In this verse the Hebrew letter (מ) means “because of” or “from.” It is never translated as “for” which would incorrectly indicate a vicarious atonement.
2. “For the transgression of my people they (למו) were stricken.” (Isaiah 53:8). The word they (למו) is plural (see Psalm 99:7) and clearly indicates that this verse does not refer to a single individual.
Another important detail to point out is that his chapter does not clearly identify Jesus of Nazareth. Even if we take the approach that the chapter does speak of Messiah, it could just as easily apply to anyone in history who suffered. How about Moses, Rabbi Akiva, Rabbi Chaninah Ben Tradyon, Jews in the Holocaust, etc? The entire application to Jesus by missionaries is based on faith, but when carefully scrutinized it doesn’t prove anything.
One other point to emphasize, if you have time. In Matthew 16, we see that Jesus himself does not claim to be Messiah. Jesus asks his disciples, “Who do you think I am?” One answers “Elijah,” another, that he is John the Baptist. Peter thinks he is the Messiah. However, when Jesus then says that he must go up to Jerusalem, be killed, and resurrected on the third day. Peter rebukes him “God forbid it, lord, this shall never happen to you.”
One may ask “Why does Peter need to rebuke Jesus?” If, indeed he is the promised messiah, then Peter, no doubt familiar with Isaiah 53, should have had no problem. Yet, since neither he, nor any other apostle of Jesus knew of any strange concept of Messiah suffering, dying, and being resurrected, they did not see Isaiah 53 as being a definitive passage containing information defining the “suffering servant” and vicarious atonement role of Messiah”
The other Messianic scriptures which talk about Messiah were not fulfilled by Jesus the so called Messiah.
If you want to debate on Jesus’ Messiahship please go to the appropriate thread “Was Jesus Jewish Messiah – What does the Hebrew Bible really say?”
Adam……Jodi and I have quoted the Old Testament scriptures to you directly ,over and over, but you are simply refusing to believe them. There are many scriptures that support the fact that Jesus is the Messiah. But you have given yourself over to the Jews and are becoming one of them, you seem to forget they were the ones rejecting Jesus right from the beginning , they rejected the thrush then and still do, they even had Jesus killed. Their blindness is so evident in and through scriptures, but some of them do believe Jesus was and is the Messiah, who God sent into the world to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God, and God did back up his words with great miracles and sign and wonders, raising him back to life after he was dead for three days. Does not scripture say he came to his own, and they received him not, rejected him? Is that not true also? Have you become one of them also?
peace and love to you and yours Adam………gene
Adam……Jodi and I have quoted the Old Testament scriptures to you directly ,over and over, but you are simply refusing to believe them. There are many scriptures that support the fact that Jesus is the Messiah.
Hi brother Gene, no you can not prove Jesus as Messiah if you are honest enough to interpret the Messianic quotations from the Hebrew Bible. Here are the few critical arguments on this subject;
The Hebrew scriptures were an important source for the New Testament authors. There are 27 direct quotations in the Gospel of Mark, 54 in Matthew, 24 in Luke, and 14 in John, and the influence of the scriptures is vastly increased when allusions and echoes are included, with half of Mark’s gospel being made up of allusions to and citations of the scriptures. Matthew contains all Mark’s quotations and introduces around 30 more, sometimes in the mouth of Jesus, sometimes as his own commentary on the narrative, and Luke makes allusions to all but three of the Old Testament books.
Debate about prophecy fulfillment
Among Christian believers, opinion varies as to which Old Testament passages are messianic prophecies and which are not, and whether the prophecies they claim to have been fulfilled are intended to be prophecies. The authors of these Old Testament prophecies often appear to be describing events that had already occurred. For example, the New Testament verse states:
14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: ‘Out of Egypt I called my son.
— Matthew 2:14-15
This is referring to the Old Testament verse Hosea 11:1. However, that passage reads,When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Skeptics say that the Hosea passage clearly is talking about a historical event and therefore the passage clearly is not a prophecy.
According to modern scholarship, the suffering servant described in Isaiah chapter 53 is actually the Jewish people. According to some, the rabbinic response, e.g., Rashi and Maimonides, is that, although the suffering servant passage is clearly prophetic and even if Psalm 22 is prophetic, the Messiah has not come yet; therefore, the passages could not be talking about Jesus. As noted above, there is some controversy about the phrase “they have pierced my hands and my feet”.
For modern Bible scholars, either the verses make no claim of predicting future events, or the verses make no claim of speaking about the Messiah. They view the argument that Jesus is the Messiah because he has fulfilled prophecy as a fallacy, i.e. it is a confession of faith masquerading as objective rational argumentation. As Christian-turned-atheist Farrell Till argues in his Skeptical Review,
What is the rationale for distorting the scriptures so flagrantly? Well, the answer, of course, is obvious: the gospel writers were desperate to prove that their man Jesus was the Messiah who had been promised in the Old Testament. Since there really were no prophecies of a virgin-born, crucified, resurrected Messiah in the Old Testament, they had to twist and distort to give the appearance that Jesus was the long-awaited one.
This was the fate of the NT writers.
The Portrayal of Jesus in Matthew’s Gospel
Most people would agree that Matthews’s gospel is the most Jewish of the four gospels. This first century Jewish writer, set within the Jewish tradition, wants the reader to learn Most people would agree that Matthews’s gospel is the most Jewish of the four gospels. This first century Jewish writer, set within the Jewish tradition, wants the reader to learn about Jesus, the one he called Messiah. It is thought the work of Matthews’s gospel is unlikely to be a translator; there is no evidence to say if it is the same, Matthew mentioned in the gospel. We can say for certain the author was a Jew. And safely dated to the last quarter of the first century; the Didache and Ignatius of Antioch reference Matthew’s gospel in the first part of the second century. The gospel of Matthew appears to have a dependence on Mark with early rabbinic Judaism possibly trying to consolidate itself after the Jewish war.
Matthews’s intentions are to link Jesus to the Prophesies and great Patriarchal figures such as Moses concerning the coming of the Messiah. At the start of Matthews gospel is the genealogy to show the unbroken line from Abraham through David to the husband of Mary, Joseph. I think it is worth briefly mentioning gematria here a numerological study assigned to words and letters, there appears a manipulation by Matthew counting Jechonia twice. Scholars have noted this means there are 42 generations between Abraham, Mary and Joseph, 42 has a scriptural symbolic reference to the unfolding of God’s plan. All the names in each set is 86.8, 80 is the number of salvation, and 6 is the number of man. Has Matthew left us an encrypted message, is the son of David represented by the number 14? The answer is unclear by the author but we must acknowledge the manipulation of information as Matthew trying to prove the Jewish heritage of Jesus, born of the spirit, adopted son of Joseph, son of David and son of Abraham.
Matthew’s Christology is one that emphasises to a Jewish audience the Jewishness of Jesus. It will be the purpose of this is to argue that the purpose of Matthew’s Christology is to portray Jesus as entirely compatible if not with the Judaism of his day then with ancient Judaic tradition, namely the Old Testament. Whilst there are numerous titles given to Jesus that are exclusive/predominant within the Matthean account, such as that of Son of God, it is the writer’s assertion that these merely complement Matthew’s central theses; this being the portrayal of Jesus as Messiah and so, as such, will not be investigated except where they promote this conclusion. This fulfilment of Judaic tradition will be investigated in three separate yet interrelated areas: Jesus as the fulfilment of Hebraic messianic expectation, Jesus’ role as a Jewish teacher and Jesus as inaugurator of God’s Kingdom.
Matthew is a Semitic gospel written as an encouragement to Jewish Christians and as an apologetic to unbelieving Jews. From the outset Matthew identifies Jesus as one of royal Davidic lineage and Abrahamic descent. Matthew immediately identifies with Judaic tradition portraying Jesus with the Immanuel figure of Isaiah 7:14 (1:23). This motif of the Jewishness of the gospel is especially prevalent in its depiction of Jesus’ role as the fulfilment of the Old Testament’s messianic hope (2:4, 26:63) as well as running throughout the text on varying levels. Perhaps one of the most interesting theories offered in detailing this continuation between testaments is Leske’s proposal that Jesus’ role and ministry is antecedent to the Isaianic literature, and, in particular, the Servant nation of Israel.
“My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness”
2 Cor12.8
So how weak was the son of God.?
His flesh was weak.
He emptied himself, humbled himself, denied himself, and did what the Father wanted him to do.
Now he is with God in the glory he had with him before the cosmos.
The body that he has now is like the body that the redeemed will have.
Flesh → Spirit.
We must be born again. Born of the Spirit.
Hi PC,
We know that Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power and he went about doing good and healing, walking on water and raising the dead etc. was this because of the anointing , or do you really think he did all these things in his own strength?
To all……Jesus clearly speaking of himself said……“the Son of man can do “nothing” of himself”. But most don’t really believe he meant what he said, if they did believe him they would understand it was God the Father doing the works in and through him.
peace and love to you all and yours………gene
If you guys need to rely on a strawman argument to force your point through, then you have lost.
Those who believe that Jesus is the Word of God, the Son of God, the Lord, and the Messiah, also believe that he is a man. So stating scriptures that speak of Jesus as a man is not winning your argument.
Read slowly please.
Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
Now that you know that Jesus emptied himself, came in the flesh, humbled himself, obeyed God, died for our sins, then was raised, it is also up to you to know that Jesus Christ is at the right hand of the Father in the glory he had with him before the cosmos.
Stating that Jesus Christ is a man agrees with what I am telling you and what many already believe, but you have deceived your own mind into thinking that it somehow proves that Jesus Christ was not with the Father as the first born of all creation.
Time to wake up from your slumber. Truth doesn’t change because you twist things to mean something else.
Either accept the truth about Jesus Christ or run into darkness where you can imagine any fantasy you want and then regurgitate strawman arguments to make yourself feel better.
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