The Ordinary Jesus Brigade

[Jodi]

Good Morning t8,

YOU:

I marvel at the debates that happen here and elsewhere. One side says that Jesus is God and the other says a man only. But scripture tells the truth when it identifies him as the Word of God, the messiah, the Son of God, and the saviour.

ME: Don’t you have a problem though with this t8, as the WORD is said that it “was God”.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If you equate the Word to a pre-existing Jesus, then I would see how people then would according to this passage, MUST equate him with being God. 

The WORD in John 1 is not equated with the Son of God, or the Messiah but is equated to God t8. 

 

[Proclaimer]

Not so Jodi. The word ‘God’ (theos) has no definite article in John 1:1c like the other instances of ‘theos’ in John 1:1a-b’. This is profound.

First off, if it did have the definite article, then it would mean that the Word was God to the exclusion of all others. So what does it mean?

Think of the time Jesus said “You are theos”. Was he telling his hearers that they were YHWH? No. Besides quoting scripture, there was no preceding definite article so he never said: “You are THE God” and the Old Testament verse he was quoting is clearly not referring to YHWH in the latter instance of ‘theos’.

John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

Psalm 82
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; He judgeth among the gods
…..
I have said, Ye are gods;
And all of you are children of the most High.

Likewise with John 1:1c there is no definite article and you can tell from Psalm 82 that the second ‘theos’ is not the first ‘theos’.

Below I will provide some quotes where others have eloquently expressed what the word ‘theos’ in John 1:1c means. I will quote all the way back to Origen and up to these latter times. I don’t expect you to read all of Origen’s understanding of this so I have placed it at the bottom of the post, but the first few are an easy read. But if you do read Origen’s commentary, you will not only learn about ‘theos’ without the definite article but also what it means to the logos too.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke,  Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

[Truthcomber]

Hi T8,

 

Your application of the Granville sharp rule to John 1:1 is bogus.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-1.htm

John 1:1 (Greek text) In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and God was the Word.

Me: This is the original Greek text. Click the link above. There is no article in “God was the Word.” It is not “THE God was the Word”.  So is God not God?

https://www.theopedia.com/granville-sharps-rule
Titus 2:13:
• KJV — “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Similarly in the 1901 ASV, RSV, and also in the New World Translation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
• NASB — “Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” The same sense is also seen in NIV and ESV.
In the above translations, the first implies a reference to two persons, while the second (applying the Granville Sharp rule) sees the reference to one person who is both God and savior. The same contrast may be seen in 2 Peter 1:1:
• KJV — “to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.”
• NASB — “To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.”

Statement of the rule
“The following rule by Granville Sharp of a century back still proves to be true: `When the copulative KAI connects two nouns of the same case, if the article HO or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e., it denotes a further description of the first-named person.'” (A Manual Of The Greek New Testament, Dana & Mantey, p. 147)
“Basically, Granville Sharp’s rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word ‘and,’ and the first noun has the article (‘the’) while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person.” – James White
The basic formula (in the Greek word order) may be seen in this manner:
• Article (ho) + noun1 + and (kai) + noun2
Granville Sharp’s rule says that since the definite article (ho, or its variant) precedes only the first noun and not both, then the reference is to one person — this being the case in the verses quoted above.
Cautions in application
Detractors maintain that there are numerous examples in the Greek where Granville Sharp’s rule fails to hold up, i.e. where two distinct referents are obviously intended. However, as pointed out by Daniel Wallace, this is due to a misapplication of the rule.^ [1]^ What is often overlooked is that Granville Sharp distinctly noted that the rule applies when the two nouns are singular and apply to persons, not things. When these restrictions are considered, there are no exceptions to be noted in native Koine Greek constructions.
Wallace has restated Granville Sharp’s rule in order to explicitly state all the restrictions and to enhance the readability of the rule.
In native Greek constructions (i.e., not translation Greek), when a single article modifies two substantives connected by kai (thus, article-substantive- kai-substantive), when both substantives are (1) singular (both grammatically and semantically), (2) personal, (3) and common nouns (not proper names or ordinals), they have the same referent. ^[2]^

[Truthcomber]

Hi T8,

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a SON is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace.

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Me: Our God is in two modes, invisible and visible. God expresses himself through the Word which became his son since the human element or heart of man was added to it.  They are one and the same or two sides of the same coin. God will express himself through his brethren via his Son Jesus Christ. We are one with his son. Christ is one with God. Therefore, we are one with God through Christ.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:..20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

[Truthcomber]

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am YHWH; and beside me there is no savior.

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

 

Me: Again the Father and son are the same person–the higher self invisible and the son the expression of the Father.

[Proclaimer]

John 1:1 (Greek text) In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and God was the Word.

Me: This is the original Greek text. Click the link above. There is no article in “God was the Word.” It is not “THE God was the Word”.  So is God not God?

God doesn’t have the definite article, Logos does.

[Proclaimer]

Truthcomber, I am open to the Word being God because I believe that everything came from God even the Word that was with God. God is the Father of spirits after all.

If you read the commentaries shortly after the Apostles on John 1:1, their understanding of what was written in the New Testament is the God was alone and the first to come from God was his Word, so yes, The Word was God would fit. They further believed that the Word was with God at this point and all things came into existence thereafter by God through his Word. In fact creation is defined as all that came from God through the Word, thus ruling out both God and the Word as created. Begotten is a better way to understand the Word of God who is the Son of God.

That said, there are really valid reasons for believing that John 1:1c is written in a qualitative sense as other instances of theos in scripture that is not referring to the Father. And we are taught elsewhere in scripture that the Father is the only God, and if the Word was God, then the Father is the Word and not the Son. Here are some viewpoints from Trinitarians who agree that ‘theos’ in John 1:1c is qualtative.

Philip B. Harner:
“Perhaps the clause could be translated ‘the Word had the same nature as God.’ This would be one way of representing John’s thought, which is, as I understand it, that ho logos, no less than ho theos, had the nature of theos.” (“Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1”, Journal of Biblical Literature, 92,1 (March 1973), p. 87)

James Moffat:
“‘The Word was God…And the Word became flesh,’ simply means ‘The Word was divine….And the word became human.’ The Nicene faith, in the Chalcedon definition, was intended to conserve both of these truths against theories that failed to present Jesus as truly God and truly man…” (Jesus the Same. Abingdon-Cokesbury, 1945, p. 61)

B.F. Westcott:
“The predicate (God) stands emphatically first, as in iv. 24. It is necessarily without the article (theos not ho theos) inasmuch as it describes the nature of the Word and does not identify His Person…. No idea of inferiority of nature is suggested by the form of expression, which simply affirms the true deity of the Word.” (The Gospel According to St. John. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1958 reprint, p. 3)

Henry Alford:
“Theos must then be taken as implying God, in substance and essence,–not ho theos, ‘the Father,’ in person. It noes not = theios; nor is it to be rendered a God–but, as in sarx engeneto, sarx expresses that state into which the Divine Word entered by a-definite act, so in theos en, theos expresses that essence which was His en arche:–that He was very God . So that this first verse must be connected thus: the Logos was from eternity,–was with God (the Father),–and was Himself God.” (Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary, Vol. I, Part II Guardian ‘press 1976 ; originally published 1871). p. 681.

[Proclaimer]

To understand how the definite article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used in a qualitative sense that is, mankind or to describe one’s nature. Whereas, THE man is identifying a particular man and Eve is not a particular man, but she is part of man.

[Anthony]

Hi Gene

Here another place were you say Jesus Christ is just a man.

You said: post #810752

JESUS CAME INTO “HIS” “EXISTENCE” EXACTLY as we did, without exception.

See Gene you do look at Jesus Christ as just a man or a prophet or good teaching, but just a man like us.

And don’t think that most of us don’t see Jesus Christ humanity.

God bless

[Anthony]

Hi Gene

Mii told you the truth:

Post# 810824

Jesus is not just our Brother, but also our Lord, Messiah, Savior, King, Mediator, Shepherd, High Priest, Word, Teacher and more. He WAS different than us, because he was the only sinless person, and had the Spirit Without measure. How then can you say he was Exactly like us in every way? And how can you ask him anything if he is still just a man?

Gene, do you believe that Jesus is STILL just a man?

God bless

[Truthcomber]

Hi T8,

 

You: I am open to the Word being God because I believe that everything came from God even the Word that was with God. God is the Father of spirits after all.
If you read the commentaries shortly after the Apostles on John 1:1, their understanding of what was written in the New Testament is the God was alone and the first to come from God was his Word, so yes, The Word was God would fit. They further believed that the Word was with God at this point and all things came into existence thereafter by God through his Word. In fact creation is defined as all that came from God through the Word, thus ruling out both God and the Word as created. Begotten is a better way to understand the Word of God who is the Son of God.

Me: There was no “son of God” pertaining to the Word of God in the OT. You cannot find it. Click the below link. The humanity of Christ is a creation of God. “Sons of God”  also pertain to the angels and Adam because they had no ancestors but was created directly by God. Even Adam was called the son of God because he too had no ancestor (Luke 3:38).

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=son+of+God&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

Only in Daniel 3:25 do we find “one LIKE the son of God”. The word became the “begotten son of God” when he was joined to the human heart of man of the seed of David. That is when he became the “only begotten son of God”.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. He was the only one. No saints were called the son of God in a spiritual sense in the OT.

New King James Version
Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten (Me: birth) You.”

Psalms 2:7 (NASB) “I will surely tell of the decree of YHWH
He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten (me: birth) You.

Me: Christ became fully the son of God after his resurrection and glorification. Now the expression of God himself had the soul of a man in it. The soul of man was completely bonded to the Word of God.  The expression of God now had a human element in it.  But why are saints called the sons of God in the NT. It is because they too are born directly as the sons of God by putting on Christ. They are a new creation. The OT saints also become the sons of God by Pentecost.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is THE image of the invisible God,

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Me: This is almost like cloning. We are baptized of the holy spirit. We become the direct sons of God.

You: That said, there are really valid reasons for believing that John 1:1c is written in a qualitative sense as other instances of theos in scripture that is not referring to the Father. And we are taught elsewhere in scripture that the Father is the only God, and if the Word was God, then the Father is the Word and not the Son. Here are some viewpoints from Trinitarians who agree that ‘theos’ in John 1:1c is qualtative.

To All  these se called scholars:
2 Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Me: The Father is invisible. The Word is the expression of the invisible God who no one has seen or heard.

Duet 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Me: This means there are two aspects of God—the invisible and the expression of himself that together is one.  .

[Truthcomber]

Hi T8

 

You: To understand how the definite article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.
a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man
a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man
The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:
a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.
See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.
In other words the word ‘man’ can be used in a qualitative sense that is, mankind or to describe one’s nature. Whereas, THE man is identifying a particular man and Eve is not a particular man, but she is part of man.

Me: I explained this to you already.
A) In the beginning was THE Word
B) And the Word was with God (not with the God)

C) (Greek text) And God was the Word.

[Truthcomber]

John 1:1 (Greek text) In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and God was the Word.
Me: This is the original Greek text. Click the link above. There is no article in “God was the Word.” It is not “THE God was the Word”. So is God not God?

You: God doesn’t have the definite article, Logos does.
Me: The Granville Sharp rule states the first noun that has “the” dictates. And if the first one does and the second doesn’t, then the first and second pertain to the same person. The rule doesn’t apply here.  Even if John 1c says that “the Word was God”, this means that the Word is God.

[GeneBalthrop]

T8,   so if I say the  ball and chain saved me, that means the ball and chain are the same thing.  While we can say our God and savior Jesus christ, that in no way means they are the same thing. Why? Because both are involved in our salvation process. God saves us through his sacrificial lamb, Jesus  which he offered up for our forgiveness .

Thomas said  “my lord “and” my God,  showing two different beings, if he were meaning they were the same person, he would have said “my lord God”, he obvisely was expressing two presents there. One was the lord (adoni) JESUS,  and God (adonai)  who indwelt him, by the anointing spirit he had on him.

GOD AND HIS WORD ARE THE SAME THING , GOD IS SPIRIT SO ARE HIS WORDS, AND JESUS SPOKE THEM TO US, AND PLAINLY SAID THOSE WORDS WERE “NOT HIS”.  JESUS IS NOT GOD’S WORD HIMSELF EVEN THOUGH HE SPEAKS THEM TO US, NO MORE THEN I WOULD BE GOD’S WORD IF I QUOTED THEM TO ANYONE.

Anyone T8 should understand these words spoken by Jesus,  ” that they might know “YOU” the “ONLY” TRUE GOD,  and Jesus Christ who “YOU” HAVE SENT.   That scripture along should make all the other scriptures clear, to anyone with the spirit of truth in them. 

You  spend your time swatting gnats and swallowing camels.   You explain things like you know it, but neglect the simple things right in front of you.  It reminds me of those who are ever learning, but never comming the the truth.

If you can’t see Jesus had a God and it sure was not him, you haven’t even started understanding the truth yet. T8 jesus is not the ‘WORD” OF God, because God and his words are one and the same being brother. He and his words can abide in us by the anointing Spirit he gives us.  Jesus told us that the Anointing spirit of truth would bring to our minds the words he was telling us, how?, because it’s the same spirit that was giving him GOD THE FATHER’S WORDS TO TELL US.

Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

 

[Jodi]

Hi t8,

You: Likewise with John 1:1c there is no definite article and you can tell from Psalm 82 that the second ‘theos’ is not the first ‘theos’.

Psalm 82
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; He judgeth among the gods

ME: You can tell that the second elohiym is not the first in Psalms because the first is JUDGING the second, and one is used to represent One and the other multiple. The verse makes it absolutely clear that the two occurrences of elohiym being used are not possibly the same elohiym.

Such is not the case in John 1:1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

However I will say in your defense that I agree that Jesus can be referred to as a theos as from the example you gave,

John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

Also in your defense I can see that if you believe the “Word” to represent a “pre-existing Son” the word “with” in the passage gives you room for a more legitimate stance .

Correct me if I am wrong, when you read John 1:1 you understand it like this,

In the beginning was the Word (pre-existing Son), and the Word (pre-existing Son) was with God (One True God) and the Word (pre-existing Son) was God (a theos).

the use of “with” God and then “is” God certainly helps you out.

I’d like to go back to this passage,

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos). 35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

Jesus has referenced himself in this passage to other men, like that of Ezekiel, as the word of God came to Ezekiel and he was sent to speak it.

Ezekiel would be one of those gods, to whom the word of God came,

Ezekiel 3:1 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. 2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness. 4 And he said unto me, Son of man, go, get thee unto the house of Israel, and speak with my words unto them….10 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, all my words that I shall speak unto thee receive in thine heart, and hear with thine ears….14 So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me.

Ezekiel 11:5 And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.

Jesus likewise had the Spirit fall upon him, it did like a dove, but in the case of Jesus it was the Spirit resting upon him without measure, he called it an anointing, and gave the purpose for his anointing, which was for him to go and speak the word of God, heal, and deliver captives.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

The word of God that Jesus speaks, the Good News, was that which had been WITH God before Jesus had been anointed to preach the word of God.

Let’s review some of the NAMES given to the child born of Mary,

The NAME given to the child born of Mary was JESUS which means “YHWH is Salvation”.

Through Jesus we are to know the Only True God and that by God through Jesus we have salvation.  Jesus is sent out upon his anointing to do the will of God not his own, to speak the words of God not his own, and perform deeds by God’s command.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God ACCORDING to his PROMISE RAISED unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 

Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 That WORD, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and BEGAN from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

We can see why Jesus was given such a NAME by reading what he says, 

John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. 44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

We also see another NAME given, a NAME that means “God with us” or “With us is God”.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

In Revelation we are give yet ANOTHER NAME, the below passage leads us to UNDERSTAND that NAME. 

Revelation 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath PREVAILED to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. …8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Jesus, of the tribe of Judah, of the root of David, who SHED HIS BLOOD, resurrected being the Son of Man sitting at God’s right hand had PREVAILED and thus he is worthy to open the book giving us the WORD of GOD of the seven seals. 

In that same chapter he is given yet another NAME,

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

ALL THESE NAMES are given to the Son of David, and they were WITH GOD FOR the son of David to be named, before the world was! Just as God had promised eternal life for mankind before the world was, God had promised the son of David to be His firstborn of many brethren into eternal life, before the world was. 

God’s WORD that had been WITH God from the beginning, is HIS WILL that would be done, that will of God established from the beginning is revealed to us by promises in the scriptures.

2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

God’s WORD, HIS WILL, SPOKEN to us in PROMISES.

Promises in the scriptures are His WORD, reflecting that which was with HIM from the beginning and is HIM, HIS WILL.

When I read John 1:1 I understand it like this,

In the beginning was the Word (God’s Will, which includes eternal life for mankind, which includes God who is going to be mindful of a man), and the Word (God’s Will) was with God (One True God) and the Word (God’s Will) was God (One True God).

God ALONE created all things t8, so your use of the word “through” is false.

God ALONE made all things by His Wisdom and Power, and He made it through by REASON OF, that which is according to His WILL, a man He would be mindful of, visit, rest His Spirit upon an anointing, calling him to righteousness, holding his hand and directing all his ways, for to be a LIGHT. 

t8, John goes on in chapter 1, speaking of God’s WILL that had been with God since the beginning. The verses in chapter 1 are of the LIGHT, the LIGHT of Isaiah’s prophecy, God’s SPOKEN promise that revealed that which was God’s Will that had been WITH God before the world was.

Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, FOR A LIGHT of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my GLORY will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

JESUS is worthy to open the book of the Word of God of the seven seals because he PREVAILED, he prevailed because God had called the root of David, a man of the tribe of Judah to righteousness, because God held his hand.

In prophecy (God’s Word revealing His Will by promises) NO PART of the equation holds a pre-exisiting son needing to come down to be made into a man in order for us to have a savior. NONE.

Our savior comes from the seed of David who fulfills all of God will. (Acts 13)

The equation according to God’s word, is God and a man, and that man being visited by God, having God’s Spirit rest upon him, an anointing, a calling to righteousness for to be a LIGHT for all people.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

How is the above passage NOT equated with the passage below?

Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 That WORD, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and BEGAN from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

How could anyone NOT equate John speaking of Jesus as the LIGHT and being in GLORY to a direct reference of God’s WORD given by Isaiah? God’s WORD being made true in the flesh of Jesus?

God calling a man to righteousness for to be a LIGHT, a prohecy made true in the flesh of Jesus, God giving glory to a man, made true in the flesh of Jesus. A man receiving the Spirit without measure, the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of the Lord, made true in the flesh of Jesus.

How can you t8 possibly NOT equate Jesus being said to be the only begotten of the father filled with GRACE and TRUTH, to the prophecies of Isaiah?

SERIOUSLY please EXPLAIN such t8? 

You want to tell me that the people saw Jesus and they beheld the glory of Jesus as a pre-existing non flesh anointed spirit?

NO, they beheld the glory of a man that was born again, called to righteousness having God’s Spirit rest upon him, where he was SENT out beginning in Galilee preaching God’s word, performing signs and miracles VIA being filled with the Spirit and Power of God, when it descended upon him like a dove.

Such is WHEN God fulfilled His “promise, RAISING up Jesus unto Israel a Saviour”. Jesus said he had to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness, when Jesus rose up from the water the Spirit was upon him, he had been called to righteousness for to be a LIGHT and that LIGHT was SENT. That light came to his own but his own did not receive him, just as was prophesied. 

God created all things through and FOR the Son of Man that would be His firstborn of many brethren dwelling in an eternal kingdom. He created all things FOR the END that He had established from the beginning. God did not make a one of a kind anointed Son and have him then create all things FOR HIMSELF and then send him down to be one of the men he made.

To say that God had to send a non flesh son to save us is a LIE.

God saves us through a calling of a man to righteousness for to be a LIGHT.

God raised up Jesus to be our savior, He did not send down a pre-existing son to be a man to be our savior. Our savior came to us by a PROMISE, according to a prophecy, God’s will revealed to us by His WORD.  Jesus came to the world, he was sent by God upon His anointing at the river, the BEGINNING of his glory was first witnessed in Galilee, the glory that came from a promise that a MAN was to receive. Jesus came from heaven/ God’s will, that had been with God before the world was. 

[Ed J]

Good Morning t8,

YOU:

I marvel at the debates that happen here and elsewhere. One side says that Jesus is God and the other says a man only. But scripture tells the truth when it identifies him as the Word of God, the messiah, the Son of God, and the saviour.

ME: Don’t you have a problem though with this t8, as the WORD is said that it “was God”.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If you equate the Word to a pre-existing Jesus, then I would see how people then would according to this passage, MUST equate him with being God.

The WORD in John 1 is not equated with the Son of God, or the Messiah but is equated to God t8.

Hi Jodi,

Religion starts with the compass point premise: “The Word” is Jesus…
…and then they try to fit all of Scripture around that premise.

But there’s only one problem: Scripture no-where says that???
It’s instead clear from Scripture “The Word” God’s “Holy-Spirit:

The Spirit is the word –> The words are spirit… (Pretty simple!)

“the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit” (John 6:63)
”the Spirit, which is the word of God” (Ephesians 6:17)

____________
God bless
Ed J

[GeneBalthrop]

T8……what Jodi and I and it looks like even Edj, are telling you IS RIGHT, the word of God is God, and naturally it is with him , just as your words are with you and are you.  Jesus did not preexist his birth on this earth,,  Those are are false teachings of the fallen or apostate churches, that was starting even at the time of Paul and John.

We are trying to explain it correctly to you T8, Jesus is a fellow human being just like the first Adam is, he is called the second Adam right? Now was not Adam a fellow flesh human being like we are, because God created him does that somehow make him different the we are, the same applies to Jesus, scripture calls him the second Adam, and even calls Adam the son of God, but you have no problem of identifying Adam as a human being right?  The same should apply to JESUS, and us all. God the Father took a  ordinary born  human being and perfected him by his holy spirit, and elevated him to the highest position a man could ever attain to, placing over all the works of his (GOD’S) hands that God created for us all.  He is the highest level of God’s creation, no one is or can be higher the Jesus in all creation.

GOD’S PURPOSE FOR US IS THIS,  EPH 4:13…..Tell we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a “perfect” man, unto the measure of the stature of the “fulness” of Christ. (the anointed). 

There it is T8, simple and clear, no “special ” hidden understandings needed. As long as we see Jesus as a man exactly as we are a MAN who GOD THE FATHER TOOK AND  “HIGHELY” GLORIFIED AND HONOURED AND  EXALTED and put  ALL THE WORKS OF CREATION UNDER HIS FEET,  exactly as he has said about mankind in Hebrews, he has fulfilled in “the man Jesus”.  We are called to be “joint” heirs with him in the kingdom of God.  Where if we overcome exactly as he did, we will sit with him in his kingdom, just as he said, we could.

Liars and false teachers under the sway of Satan, have seperated Jesus from identifying his own human idenity with the rest of mankind.  They preach him as a God, which destorys his Faith in God the “only” true God, how?, by making the image of  him to be  himself a God, they can’t even understand , why would Jesus need a God  to believe in, if he were already a God himself.  THESE FALSE TEACHERS ARE EVERWHERE IN NEARLY ALL SO-CALLED CHRISTANITY TODAY.

SATAN has deliberately build a wedge between  mankind and God the Father by turning the “image” of Jesus in the hearts and minds of those who are  decieved into a GOD.  They are IDOLATERS.  ,  Remember what John said “little childern keep yourselves from idols”. He know it was going to be a matter of Idolatry that was going to plague the church, and it is.

Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

 

[Proclaimer]

T8……what Jodi and I and it looks like even Edj, are telling you IS RIGHT, the word of God is God, and naturally it is with him

I’ve always said it here and it is still true, that if people understood the difference between an attribute and person, then they wouldn’t wander off into strange doctrines on what God is and what Jesus is.

Of course, logos is in God as it is part of his divine nature and / or character, but so is truth. When Jesus said he was the truth, if we take your thinking Gene, it means that Jesus is God because he is truth and truth is in God. Trinitarians hard at work could make this point against you as we know well that Jesus is not part of God, he was begotten of God.

Finally, when God begats, he does so from himself and yes the one who is begotten takes on the same nature and has the same attributes, like a flame gives rise to a flame. God doesn’t begat something that is not already from within himself because he is God of all and all good and all life has its origin in God. So it stands to reason that the Logos that was with God doesn’t takeaway the logos that is in God just like a flame doesn’t diminish when it creates a new flame. Just know that people are often named after an attribute like Grace, Peter, Yeshua and yet they remain a person that is not God himself. Know the difference between a person and an attribute. The definite article can help you grapple with this.

[Proclaimer]

Ed J, you have never satisfactorily answered this question.

If the Holy Spirit is the Word of God then why is the sword of the Spirit also the word of God?

The sword must confuse you because it must be pointless to you right?

and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,

[Proclaimer]

Religion starts with the compass point premise: “The Word” is Jesus…
…and then they try to fit all of Scripture around that premise.

But there’s only one problem: Scripture no-where says that???
It’s instead clear from Scripture “The Word” God’s “Holy-Spirit:

The Spirit is the word –> The words are spirit… (Pretty simple!)

As to your last sentence Ed J, there’s only one problem: Scripture no-where says that???

[Author]

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