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Hi Ed J,
YOU:Did Jesus know he was “The Son of God” *before* Jordan?
ME: Jesus knew OT scripture concerning him before the Jordan, he studied scriptures concerning him as a child. He knew that he was the Son of David who God had given a promise to. He knew that he was the seed of Abraham through whom all the nations would be blessed through. He knew what Isaiah wrote about him.
YOU: First you ignore verses that prove you wrong.
Then when pressed you attempt “to alter”
them to fit your carnal understandingME: There is no verse that I ignore. Do you want to give an example of one that I have?
I alter passages? Give an example of a passage that I alter? How about you taking a passage that is speaking of JESUS, which is the name given to the seed of David born a Son of Man, and saying that it is referencing not him but his former self?
I have asked this question to t8 and Anthony, haven’t noticed a response yet, maybe I missed it.
Does a scripture’s meaning CHANGE if you change who the passage is speaking of? If a passage is speaking of Jesus in the flesh verses his former self you believe existed, does that change the meaning to the passage?
Hi Carmel,
YOU:
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLD.
Jody
Tell me If God made the world by “THE WORD” Jesus TO BE, the Son of Man TO BE, as a spirit, HOW ON EARTH JESUS, THE SOURCE DID NOT PRE-EXIST.
ME: First of all the passage you gave tells us that the Son didn’t pre-exist as the WORD. In God’s word to the prophets was the Son, who would be of the seed of David who God would make into His own Son. Second, you don’t understand the COMMON USE of the word “by” which in the Greek is dia,
- through
- of place
- with
- in
- of time
- throughout
- during
- of means
- by
- by the means of
- of place
- through
- the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
- by reason of
- on account of
- because of for this reason
- therefore
- on this account
- the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
Thirdly, you seem to DENY that Jesus is the Last Adam (human), certainly not some spirit creature.
Fourthly, who is it that sits at God’s right hand? Who is it that brought you forgiveness to your sins? Who is it that is returning and is sitting on David’s throne according to the FLESH? Who is it that is your source for eternal salvation? Who is it that is said to be God’s Son? The PERFECTED SON OF MAN that is WHO.
Hi Carmel,
YOU:
Rev. 13:8 And all the dwell upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world.
Jodi, read and reflect:
WHICH WAS SLAIN FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD. Tell me if “THE WORD” Jesus TO BE, the Son of Man TO BE, as a spirit,
was slain like a lamb from the beginning of the world, HOW ON EARTH HE DID NOT PRE-EXIST
ME: The lamb that was slain was Jesus, who through being obedient to God going up to be slaughtered caused his perfection, that perfecting is what saves you from your sins. You speak vanity, pure emptiness. Jesus as the lamb going to be slaughtered was a HUMAN who FEARED death but He overcame because he did not live by bread alone but by the word of God that was in him. That word had been given to David, and Jesus believed it, he had faith in it. Jesus had faith that God’s promise to David was TRUE, that though he would die on the cross God would not allow his flesh to see decay, that he would become God’s firstborn, that he would sit at God’s right hand and be given dominion over the works of God’s hands, that he would destroy all wickedness and raise up the righteous, making his brothers and sisters to be JUST LIKE HIM.
Seems you are using the translation of Wycliffe There was a slaying from the beginning that occurred? I don’t even follow what you are saying it is nonsense to me. The Word of God is the word of God, the word of God in OT given was about the coming Son of Man and how that Son of Man would fulfill God’s will, and how God would anoint that Son of Man to not only do God’s will but in doing so he would be speaking God’s word for God, that is what it means when it is said that Jesus came in God’s name, he was a prophet for God, he was a teacher for God. He spoke not his own words but the words of the ONE True God. As a spirit??? what are you talking about?
Go look up other translations.
Really?? the passage is telling us that the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth??
4 and they did bow before the dragon who did give authority to the beast, and they did bow before the beast, saying, `Who is like to the beast? who is able to war with it?’ 6 and it did open its mouth for evil-speaking toward God, to speak evil of His name, and of His tabernacle, and of those who in the heaven tabernacle, 7 and there was given to it to make war with the saints, and to overcome them, and there was given to it authority over every tribe, and tongue, and nation. 8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;The scroll of life pertains to those that have faith in the slain Lamb, Jesus the Son of man who died on the cross,
from the foundation of the world pertains to those that since the foundation of the world have bowed to the powers who spoke evil towards God. Whose names have NOT been written in the scroll of life since the foundation of the world.
Hi Carmel I can tell you this,
Acts 2: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Hi Carmel,
YOU:
John 8:25 They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you.
Jody, read and reflect:
THE BEGINNING, WHO ALSO SPEAK TO YOU. Tell me if “THE WORD” Jesus TO BE, the Son of Man TO BE, as a spirit, was
THE BEGINNING. HOW ON EARTH HE DID NOT PRE-EXIST.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
ME: Wycliffe again huh?
John 8:25 (ASV) They said therefore unto him, Who art thou? Jesus said unto them, Even that which I have also spoken unto you from the beginning.
John 8:25 (BBE) Then they said to him, Who are you? Jesus said, What I said to you from the first.
John 8:25 (CJB) At this, they said to him, “You? Who are you?” Yeshua answered, “Just what I’ve been telling you from the start.
John 8:25 (CSB) “Who are You?” they questioned. “Precisely what I’ve been telling you from the very beginning,” Jesus told them.
John 8:25 (ESV) So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning.
John 8:25 (GNT) “Who are you?” they asked him. Jesus answered, “What I have told you from the very beginning.
John 8:25 (KJV) Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them,Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
John 8:25 (NAS) So they were saying to Him, “Who are You?” Jesus said to them, “What have I been saying to you from the beginning?
John 8:25 (YLT) They said, therefore, to him,
Thou -- who art thou?' and Jesus said to them,Even what I did speak of to you at the beginning;Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him…Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness…14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about…18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Here is a passage where Jesus speaks of himself as NOT being the Creator, “4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and another one, ” because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.
15:27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
Are we to believe Carmel that there were others with Jesus in the BEGINNING. Would you like to pull this passage out of context to what the beginning is referencing?
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Jesus is the beginning, the beginning to the kingdom of God, the beginning of eternal life, the firstborn of the dead, the first HUMAN to obtain eternal life. God established the END, this new beginning, before He made the world, He established it through this firstborn.
Hi Carmel,
You quote me and then you speak according to my quote incorrectly, what gives?
My quote you gave”
“Jesus was not born some half breed human god, he was born the seed of David SET APART as the one who God would perfect and make into our source for eternal salvation.
YOU: Jodi,
Jesus is not as you said:
half breed human god
ME: Jesus was NOT born some half breed human god.
Hi Carmel,
YOU:
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,
THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE:
ME: you are changing WHO the passage is speaking of, which would be the Son of Man that was just prior in verse 14 said to have shed his blood. At the time Paul gave these words this Son of Man was sitting at God’s right hand as a firstborn over all creation, just as God’s WORD had been spoken to David concerning his son in Psalms 89. God’s word, fulfilled in the flesh of Jesus, as Jesus was raised according to the flesh to return to earth and sit on David’s throne.
What really gets me, people change the meaningful truth into emptiness.
Here we have a MAN who God PERFECTED, and because of that perfection God could not hold him to his death and instead changed his flesh from corruptible not allowing his flesh to decay but gave it eternal life, where he no longer had weak flesh to tempt him trying to pull him away from serving God, but was given full freedom to serve God. THIS is who is in the image of God, NOT some pre-existing non flesh one of a kind son. As Jesus was made in God’s image I too shall be made in God’s image. Exactly why Jesus is said to be the New beginning the firstborn of the dead just a few verses later.
To Ed J.
Gene like Nick cannot answer yes or no questions. To answer reasonable yes not questions, you need to be an honest person.
As for Jodi, I think she has answered yes and no, but usually conflates the issue and also dances around questions with essays that most never bother to read.
Forums are very good at point to point discussions. But people are not going to read essay after essay after essay. Especially when you can see they do not answer the question or cover the point.
ME: Jesus was NOT born some half breed human god.
Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man,
Believe it or not.
Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you,
This is true he was shown to be approved by God by the miracles he performed. Nicodemus knew this too well.
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”
And he came from the God who is in heaven.
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our joy complete.
Hi Ed J,
YOU: Did Jesus know he was “The Son of God” *before* Jordan?
ME: Jesus knew OT scripture concerning him before the Jordan, he studied scriptures concerning him as a child. He knew that he was the Son of David who God had given a promise to. He knew that he was the seed of Abraham through whom all the nations would be blessed through. He knew what Isaiah wrote about him.
YOU: First you ignore verses that prove you wrong.
Then when pressed you attempt “to alter”
them to fit your carnal understandingME: There is no verse that I ignore. Do you want to give an example of one that I have?
I alter passages? Give an example of a passage that I alter? How about you taking a passage that is speaking of JESUS, which is the name given to the seed of David born a Son of Man, and saying that it is referencing not him but his former self?
I have asked this question to t8 and Anthony, haven’t noticed a response yet, maybe I missed it.
Does a scripture’s meaning CHANGE if you change who the passage is speaking of? If a passage is speaking of Jesus in the flesh verses his former self you believe existed, does that change the meaning to the passage?
Hi Jodi,
Is this a “Yes” answer?
I alter passages? Give an example of a passage that I alter?
Micah 5:2
“whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:2)
Context suggests God is talking about the one (to be) born in “Bethlehem”
So obviously Micah is saying “the spirit of Christ” will be born there.Paraphrased for you…
“The Spirit of Christ’s” goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:2)This is easily confirmed by 1Peter 1:11 and 1Cor 10:4
I alter passages? Give an example of a passage that I alter?
whose goings forth as a man[color=white].[/color] have been foretold[color=white].[/color] from of old, even[color=white].[/color] from everlasting.
I have altered the verse “using red italics” for you to match your belief.
But that is NOT what the verse is sayingHi Carmel,
YOU:
John 17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
All my things, THE HUMAN ATTRIBUTES, are yours, and yours, THE DIVINE ATTRIBUTES are mine,…….
Thus: GET IT INTO YOUR MIND. THAT JESUS WAS/IS FULLY MAN AND FULLY GOD.
ME: This passage is speaking of the MAN Jesus who had been anointing with God’s Spirit Carmel.
Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him…Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness…14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about…18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Go read Isaiah 11, 42, and 61. A human would be anointed with God’s Spirit, begotten of God, born of His Spirit, being CALLED to righteousness, God would hold his hand and keep him for a covenant, to become a light for all people including the Gentiles. Those who are born of the Spirit do not sin.
There is quite a difference between the anointing of the man Jesus that occurred at the river verses him as a child GROWING strong in spirit, growing being filled with wisdom, and growing with the grace of God upon him.
Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall MAKE him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,
CARMEL, Isaiah tells you DIRECTLY that Jesus did not create heaven and earth. The one who receives the Spirit we know to be the man Jesus, he is NOT the one who created heaven and earth, he is the one who received from the Creator the Creator’s Spirit, which was a calling to righteousness. The Creator and His powers created heaven and earth, it was founded by His wisdom, which that wisdom was given to the son of David, so that the son of David could carry out the Creator’s will. The Creator would not give His glory to another, as in no other human. The servant is a human, chosen from among humans, and he is the ONLY MORTAL human to have been BORN of God’s Spirit in full measure and power. He is the one, who the Creator before He made the world, knew of as He planned for him to come, NOT sending himself, but coming forth from the offspring of David. He was MADE a covenant for the people, he would bring forth eternal life, which was the Creators PURPOSE when He created earth and man.
Either you are ONE or the other, you cannot be fully human if you are also the One True God. To me that is just one of the stupidest things I have ever heard, it DENIES God Himself and the laws to His creation, not to mention so many direct scriptures.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
With Jesus having been begotten by God just as God promised David, he had the full measure and power of God’s Spirit, and he was given it in order to perform the Creator’s will. God’s Spirit IN Jesus made him our savior, hence why AFTER he had been baptized and received the Spirit that is EXACTLY when we see him being SENT, and he was SENT out performing miracles and signs, speaking God’s word with authority, being able to raise the dead even. With that anointing he became master over the Sabbath, he was able to forgive people of sins and then heal them. Not because he pre-existed as a master, or was born some half God or full God full man, but BECAUSE God took a man chosen from the people and gave him of His glory, the Creator MADE him the anointed master as we are directly told in Acts.
Edj……JESUS SURE DID KNOW, ANSWER IS YES, HE DID. Do you think his parents didn’t tell him what the Angel of God said to them?, and do you think he did not read in scriptures that prophecied about him? God the Father gave him his Male DNA, as I HAVE SAID ALL ALONG. He was indeed a son of God just like ADAM WAS, BUT how does that make him any different then Adam was or for that matter we are also, or haven’t you read “our” father, who art in heaven”. And so many more in scripture , as “your” father, in heaven knows you have need of these thing”. and on and on it goes but you don’t obviously believe Jesus, so you preach a “DOCTRINE OF SEPERATION “. like all false teachers do, ever striving to make Jesus Out to be “different” from his human brothers and sisters.
Jodi has addresses all your question “accurately” and “clearly”, in great detail, but what good does it, for those who have eyes to see, but can’t see and ears to hear but can’t hear? Go and study go a change exactly what she has written, even if you reject what I or others have said, over and over for about ten years here. “For them that has, more shall be given and he that has not, even what he has shall be taken away.”
The sheep know the sound of the true SHEPARD, and will not follow, the voices of strangers or false shapards.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
T8…..if anyone her is dishonest here it not me nor was NICK. SHOW ME ONE PLACE WHERE I WAS EVER DISHONEST HERE. if anyone is dishonest here it’s you, because you use you power here to cast out people that disagree with your false teachings . While I have not always agreed with NICK, I “NEVER THOUGHT HE WAS DISHONEST”. He spoke what he truly believed IMO.
Peace and love to you and yours ……..gene
Hi Ed J,
YOU:
Here is the pattern I see from Gene, Jodi and Nick…
First you ignore verses that prove you wrong.
Then when pressed you attempt “to alter”
them to fit your carnal understandingME: I asked you to give examples of that which you accuse me of ignoring. I asked you to give me examples of scriptures you accuse me of altering.
YOU: Jodi, ranting on and on accomplishes nothing.
Let’s instead discuss this issues
ME: ??????
YOU:Did Jesus know he was “The Son of God” *before* Jordan?
ME: Jesus before the Jordan knew that he would become the Son of God at the Jordan, as he knew prophecy concerning himself. He grew up LEARNING, he grew in wisdom from a child to a man with the grace of God upon him. Then at the Jordan the Spirit descends upon him fulfilling Isaiah’s prophecies regarding God’s Spirit being placed upon him.
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