The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 05 2007,06:53)

Quote (kenrch @ June 05 2007,00:35)

WJ,

Let me try to explain.

All God's children have the Holy Spirit that includes the first begotten our elder Brother Jesus. When you receive the Holy Spirit we receive Jesus who is in the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is in the Father the Holy Spirit for God is a Spirit. We should be one in that same Spirit.

When we receive the Holy Spirit we receive the spirit of Christ who is one with the Holy Spirit.

Joh 17:10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.

Joh 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Father (who is Spirit John 4:24) is in Jesus. and Jesus is in the Father the Holy Spirit. WE (Jesus' prayer) are in the Father and Son because the Father and Son are one.

Actually when we receive the Holy Spirit we become part of each other in the Holy Spirit~GOD~.

So we have the Son of Man one with God the Holy Spirit.

Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

The only part of us that will make heaven is that part of us that is one with God Who is the Holy Spirit.

Mat 18:9 And if thine eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire.

If the Holy Spirit is a third separate person and part of the Trinity and all are in one Spirit; then what spirit is the Holy Spirit IN?

Scripture says there is only one Spirit. The Trinity doctrine states three in one. What is the one?

All are in the Holy Spirit. Not the Holy Spirit in a spirit.

If this is true then let it be true and accept it. My prayer is that we ARE one.

IHN&L,

Ken

Kenrch

Again, your implication is there is more than “One Spirit”.

Jesus spirit in the Holy Spirit which you say is the Fathers personal spirit.

Jesus Spirit and Holy Spirit is 2 Spirits!

There is no scripture that states this.

Look at these scriptures…

Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the *Spirit of God* dwell in you. Now if any man have not the *Spirit of Christ*, he is none of his.
10 And if *Christ be in you*, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the *Spirit of him* that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by *his Spirit* that dwelleth in you.

Now we see most of the terms I mentioned earlier in Rom 8:9,10,11. A close look at these scriptures shows Paul uses the terms interchangeably to describe the “One Spirit”.

Here we see Paul speaking of The Spirit is, “the Spirit of God” “The Spirit of Christ” “The Spirit of Him” “His Spirit” all in the same breath.

To Paul there is three persons but “One Spirit”!

You say…

Quote

If the Holy Spirit is a third separate person and part of the Trinity and all are in one Spirit; then what spirit is the Holy Spirit IN?

Scripture says there is only one Spirit. The Trinity doctrine states three in one. What is the one?

You are totally ignoring the scriptures that prove that the Comforter is a third person.

Here is a few scriptures that clearly show there is “another” Person!

Lk 3:16
John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: *he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire*:
(is this Holy Ghost the Father? If so, the Holy Spirit is subservient to Jesus since Jesus is doing the baptizing!)

Lk 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall *your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him*?
(there is 2 persons mentioned here, 1. the Father who gives 2. the Holy Spirit or comforter!)

1 Thess 4:8
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
( Again 2 persons is mentioned!)

Jn 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and *he shall give you another Comforter*, that he may abide with you for ever;
(Again, there is 2 persons here, 1. The Father and 2. “another” comforter who the Father will give)

Jn 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom *the Father will send in my name*, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
(Again, 2 persons shown here, 1. The Father and, 2. The Holy ghost whom the Father will send)

Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father*, he shall testify of me:(here is the third person proceeding from the Father and testifys of Jesus)

Jn 16:15
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for *for he shall not speak of himself*; but *whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak*: and he will shew you things to come.
(This scripture is obvious that the Spirit of truth is not the Father for the Spirit here is subservient to Jesus!)

Jn 16:14
He shall glorify me: for *he shall receive of mine* and shall shew it unto you.
(Again not the Father or the Son for he takes from Jesus and gives to us)

Jn 16:15
*All things that the Father hath are mine*: therefore said I, that *he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you*
(Again this person is not Jesus nor the Father for it would make no since for the Father here would be subservient to Jesus.)

Taking all the scriptures I have shown can only be seen in a Trinitarian light, unless you can show me another way to interpret these!

Blessings

Therer are “many” spirits in the Holy Spirit! You are suppose to be one, are you?

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1) God is a Spirit
2) It is God who is Spirit that works all in all
3) The manifestation of the Spirit, that is God, who is all in all, is given to all of His children.

Luk 10:
21 In that hour the Holy Spirit filled Jesus with joy. Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for hiding these things from wise and intelligent people and revealing them to little children. Yes, Father, this is what pleased you.

The Holy Spirit fills Jesus with Joy. Then Jesus said ” I prasie you FATHER”. Notice He didn't say I praise you Holy Spirit but he did when He reconized the Holy Spirit as the Father.

Are you asking how can God do that? I don't know…He is God!

Anyone who is a child of God Knows when the Holy Spirit manifest Himself.

When are you going to answer my question WJ?

If the Trio God is in one spirit then what spirit is that? It's not the Holy Spirit because the so called third person with NO NAME is also in THAT spirit. So what spirit is it? The spirit of the antichrist?

Who else would change God's law?

IHN&L,

Ken

June 5, 2007 at 3:55 am#54668

Participant

The Holy Spirit fills Jesus with Joy. Then Jesus said ” I prasie you FATHER”. Notice He didn't say I praise you Holy Spirit but he did when He reconized the Holy Spirit as the Father.
***********************************************

Interesting, indeed

June 5, 2007 at 5:04 am#54686

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 05 2007,15:55)

Interesting, indeed

not3

If the Holy Spirit is the Father then the Father is subservient to Jesus…

John 15:
13 Howbeit when he, the *Spirit of truth*, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for *he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak*: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for *he shall receive of mine*, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that *he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you*.

June 5, 2007 at 5:08 am#54688

Participant

WJ, I do believe there is a difference between the gift of holy Spirit and the giver of holy Spirit. But that may be my “Assembly of God” upbringing.

June 5, 2007 at 5:12 am#54689

Participant

Is the “Spirit of Truth” the name of the third person of the the Trinity?

June 5, 2007 at 5:17 am#54690

Participant

kenrch

You say…

Quote

When are you going to answer my question WJ?

Who else would change God's law?

The scriptures and Jesus speaks clearly of a “third person”.

Here is a few scriptures that clearly show there is “another” Person!

1 Thess 4:8
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
( Again 2 persons is mentioned!)

Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for *for he shall not speak of himself*; but *whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak*: and he will shew you things to come.
(This scripture is obvious that the Spirit of truth is not the Father for the Spirit here is subservient to Jesus!)

Jn 16:14
He shall glorify me: for *he shall receive of mine* and shall shew it unto you.
(Again not the Father or the Son for he takes from Jesus and gives to us)

You say…

Quote

Scripture does not support the Trinity doctrine anymore than it supports the “first” day sabbath of the Harlot.

There you go with the harlot stuff again. Is this the pat answer when you cant answer or don’t understand? The Trinity was taught by early church Fathers long before the creeds. Listen to the words of Ignatius who was a desciple of John the beloved in an epistle to the Trallians around 100 AD…

“They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; *and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists*. Some of them say that *the Son is a mere man*, and that *the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person*, and that *the creation is the work of God, not by Christ*, but by some other strange power.

So the whole Trinity and harlot argument is a straw. Give it up.

You say…

Quote

Please answer my question. What Spirit is the Holy Spirit, the Father and the Son in?
It is three in one, correct? You believe the Holy Spirit is a third separate person. Three in one correct? Then you have to include the Holy Spirit as being IN the same Spirit that Jesus and the Father are in.

I only need to conclude what the scriptures say…

There is three persons, One God!

One Spirit, Three persons, One God!

You say…

Quote

Three in one is your doctrine NOT Father and Son in one Spirit that would be two in the ONE Spirit that scripture speaks about 1Cor. ch.12. But your doctrine teaches that the Holy Spirit is a third separate person and part of the Trio. Three in one then would include that person with NO Name and that third person would have to be IN that Spirit BUT Scripture says there is ONE Spirit.

I Cor ch. 12 dosnt even mention the Father.

Not to mention the scriptures I have aready shown that the Holy Spirit is a third person.

Also you need the white out for this “unnamed spirit” you call him, which Jesus and the Apostles says he plainly exist.

Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them *in the name of (singular) the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost*:

June 5, 2007 at 5:18 am#54691

Participant

Just for fun – could the third person of the Trinity be compared to Jesus himself?

John 16:13
“……..he will speak only what he hears….” Speaking of the “Spirit of Truth”

John 5:30
“….I judge only as I hear……” Speaking of Jesus.

June 5, 2007 at 5:21 am#54692

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 05 2007,17:17)

Lk 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall *your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him*?
(there is 2 persons mentioned here, 1. the Father who gives 2. the Holy Spirit or comforter!)

Good example of what I was saying earlier – scripture is true, however you are adding or in this case, deducting that there are “2” persons mentioned in this passage. I don't see “2” persons. I see God, and I see him him giving himself to his children.

June 5, 2007 at 5:40 am#54693

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 05 2007,17:12)

Is the “Spirit of Truth” the name of the third person of the the Trinity?

not3

The Holy Spirit has many “Apallations” just like the Father and the Son.

However the primary role of the Spirit is to testify of the Father and the Son and as an helper for the believer, also known as comforter 'parakletos', which means…

1) summoned, called to one's side, esp. called to one's aid

a) one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant, an advocate

b) one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor

Rom 8:26
Likewise *the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but *the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered*.

If the Spirit here is the Father, then the Father is praying to himself.

Again, primarily the Holy Spirit testifys of the Father and the Son…

Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father*, he shall *testify of me*:(here is the third person proceeding from the Father and testifys of Jesus)

This is the reason the Spirit has no particular name like the name Jesus.

However, truth be known we dont know the true tetragammation of the Fathers name either. We know he is Father and he has many Appallations, like Father or Husbandman, or Lord, but what is his true name?

There is only “One Name” men are saved by! I think you know what that is.

June 5, 2007 at 5:43 am#54694

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 05 2007,17:21)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 05 2007,17:17)

not3

Why be shady about it?

Whats the purpose? Why didnt he just say he will give himself?

Again In light of the scriptures Jesus clearly states there is another!

June 5, 2007 at 5:46 am#54695

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 05 2007,17:18)

Just for fun – could the third person of the Trinity be compared to Jesus himself?

John 16:13
“……..he will speak only what he hears….” Speaking of the “Spirit of Truth”

John 5:30
“….I judge only as I hear……” Speaking of Jesus.

not3

The context clearly shows “Another”.

Is Jesus sending himself?

June 5, 2007 at 6:11 am#54702

NickHassan

Participant

Hi W,
No .
Scripture says Jesus PROCEEDED from God.
The Spirit PROCEEDS from God, as you would expect
given that scripture is speaking of God pouring out His own Spirit.

June 5, 2007 at 6:41 am#54704

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2007,18:11)

Hi W,
No .
Scripture says Jesus PROCEEDED from God.
The Spirit PROCEEDS from God, as you would expect
given that scripture is speaking of God pouring out His own Spirit.

No what?

June 5, 2007 at 1:45 pm#54727

olive

Participant

Hey W,

It seems there is a thread already prepared to speak of truth and spirit.

You know Wj, I have ask for revelation to give, all weekend. Searched the scriptures.

And the only thing I have is this:

Who is truth?
Who is spirit?

Why are we told in John that Yahweh seeks those worshipping in truth and spirit

If the trinity teachings were correct, then this verse leaves them one short. Because it is written he is only seeking two things, truth and spirit.

Will await your response.

much love

June 5, 2007 at 2:08 pm#54730

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 05 2007,17:17)

kenrch

You say…

Quote

When are you going to answer my question WJ?

Who else would change God's law?

The scriptures and Jesus speaks clearly of a “third person”.

Here is a few scriptures that clearly show there is “another” Person!

1 Thess 4:8
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
( Again 2 persons is mentioned!)

Jn 16:14
He shall glorify me: for *he shall receive of mine* and shall shew it unto you.
(Again not the Father or the Son for he takes from Jesus and gives to us)

You say…

Quote

Scripture does not support the Trinity doctrine anymore than it supports the “first” day sabbath of the Harlot.

So the whole Trinity and harlot argument is a straw. Give it up.

You say…

Quote

I only need to conclude what the scriptures say…

There is three persons, One God!

One Spirit, Three persons, One God!

You say…

Quote

I Cor ch. 12 dosnt even mention the Father.

Not to mention the scriptures I have aready shown that the Holy Spirit is a third person.

Also you need the white out for this “unnamed spirit” you call him, which Jesus and the Apostles says he plainly exist.

Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them *in the name of (singular) the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost*:

Just what exactly do you believe?
I know some how you and others have taken the Trinity doctrine and twisted it so it would at least LOOK true.

What holds the three together WJ?

Three in one. One what?

Is God a Spirit?

There is one God and one Spirit. God is that Spirit.

Jesus is in that Spirit. The apostles were in that Spirit. All of God's children are in that Spirit.

You preach a different Jesus one who is God! And a spirit that has God!

Truly you are blinded by your god the Harlot.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, “who is the image of God”, should shine unto them.

Why do you keep Sunday WJ? Isn't it because the Harlot tells you too! You obey man instead of God.

IHN&L,

Ken

June 5, 2007 at 2:17 pm#54731

Participant

Quote

Yes, but if Jesus Spirit is “Human” then How CAN HE DWELL IN MILLIONS OF BELIEVERS. we ar in Gods Spirit but we dont dwell in one another, not to mention Jesus is Omnipresent!

THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT!!!!!

WOW! You really are blind!!

Come out of her if you are one of God's children!

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

You are partaking of her sins and your salvation is in jeopardy!

IHN&L,
Ken

June 5, 2007 at 2:41 pm#54732

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 05 2007,17:04)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 05 2007,15:55)

Interesting, indeed

not3

If the Holy Spirit is the Father then the Father is subservient to Jesus…

Joh 16:15 (NOT 15:15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Quote

…”All things that the Father hath are mine:”

The Father gave everything to the Son is it no wonder that the Holy Spirit will show us, guide us, teach us! Jesus has nothing of Himself. Just as he said in scripture.

Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I DO NOTHING OF MYSELF; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

IHN&L,

Ken

June 5, 2007 at 4:52 pm#54733

Participant

Kenrch

You say…

Quote

Just what exactly do you believe?
I know some how you and others have taken the Trinity doctrine and twisted it so it would at least LOOK true.

What holds the three together WJ?

Three in one. One what?

Is God a Spirit?

There is one God and one Spirit. God is that Spirit.

Jesus is in that Spirit. The apostles were in that Spirit. All of God's children are in that Spirit.

Okay, lets say there is no third person “Comforter” as you say. Then please explain to me if Jesus is in the Fathers Spirit and his Spirit fills everything then that means we have the Spirit of Jesus and the Fathers Spirit right?

1=1=2 Spirits.

There is One Spirit.

Listen to these words again…

Do you see anything in those scriptures that says there is more than One Spirit? The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God! Do you see that?

Eph 2:18
For through him we both have access by *one Spirit* unto the Father.

One Spirit, not 2 the Spirit of “the Father” and “The Spirit of the Son”?

Unfortunatly for you K, even if you say there is no third person, “Comforter”, you still have to conclude if Gods Spirit as you say is God and there is only one Spirit then that makes Jesus God.

Cry harlot if you want. The proof is here in the scriptures.

1 Cor 12:11
But all these worketh that one and the *selfsame Spirit*, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Paul says here the Spirit is the same.

Now you see both Jesus and the Father living in us by that one Spirit…

II Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that *Jesus Christ is in you*, except ye be reprobates?

The Spirit is in us but do we live in one another? Are we Omnipresent like Christ who is present with each one of us by the Spirit that dwells in us?

You say..

Quote

Truly you are blinded by your god the Harlot.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, “who is the image of God”, should shine unto them.

Why do you keep Sunday WJ? Isn't it because the Harlot tells you too! You obey man instead of God.

This is what poiticians do. When they are loosing a race they resort to name calling. K because you say it is not so dosnt make it so. Same stands true for me. However I have thrown the challenge out with many scriptures backing up what I say, and you have not given answer to my questions.

Your patronizing here is uncalled for. You don’t even know if I go to church!

I hope you can sincerely answer my questions!

It would be the Christ like thing to do rather than name calling and patronizing!

Blessings

June 5, 2007 at 4:53 pm#54734