The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

Participant

David I see you are keeping up with me on the edits.

Without looking it up, how do you interpret Galatians 4:6?

March 13, 2007 at 6:58 am#44697

Participant

…by “looking it up” I don't mean the verse itself (in a Bible), I meant in your WT expositional resources…..

March 13, 2007 at 7:01 am#44698

Participant

David

Also could you give me your interpretation of 2 Cor 6:16 & 2 Cor 13:5?

March 13, 2007 at 7:05 am#44699

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 13 2007,07:34)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2007,10:46)

Hi Is 1.18,
God's spirit filled the Son and in the Son is called the Spirit of Christ.

Otherwise Rom 8 .9 makes no sense in the sequential context, between the first part of the verse, which is naturally correlated to the second in they have the same meaning.

“9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. “

The Spirit of God helps us communicate with God being always in communication with God and by helping us by giving us the language to speak with God with.

While I wait for t8 to give his understanding of this verse I'll give you my reply….

Let me see if I have read this correctly….although Paul wrote “God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts” he didn't really mean the actual Spirit of the Son, but rather the Father's personal Spirit….and in reality it was the Father's Spirit that cries “Abba! Father!” to the Father?!?

I'm sorry, but I find this an utterly ridiculous interpretation of Galatians 4:6.

Is 1:18

Good point! Dido!

March 13, 2007 at 7:12 am#44701

Participant

“Do not interpretations belong to God?” (Genesis 40:8)

Paul, I feel the evidence is overwhelming that the holy spirit is not part of a trinity.

I don't think the Jews ever even considered the thought or entertained the idea in the slightest that the holy spirit was a person, much less part of a trinity.
I don't believe the earliest Christians believed this either.

These are't my ideas. THEY ARE SIMPLY STATEMENTS OF FACT.

(I like saying that.)

As I said, interpretation belongs to God. Let's let him shed some light.

JOHN 14:26
“But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU.”

ROMANS 5:5
“and the hope does not lead to disappointment; because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy spirit, which was given us.”

I think these scritpures are good starting points.

david

March 13, 2007 at 7:13 am#44702

Participant

hmmm. Was it that the early Christians spoke too impersonally of God's holy spirit, or that later “Christians” spoke too personally?

DID JESUS EARLIEST FOLLOWERS WORSHIP THE HOLY SPIRIT AS GOD?

HOW MANY TIMES ARE WE TOLD THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD?

WHY DOESN’T THE HOLY SPIRIT KNOW WHAT GOD KNOWS? (MARK 13:32)

A PERSON CAN BE PORTRAYED BY THE IMAGE OF A PERSON (AS JEHOVAH AND JESUS ARE) SO WHY ISN'T THE HOLY SPIRIT EVER PICTURED IN HUMAN TERMS (AS HAVING A CROWN FOR EXAMPLE, OR A THRONE)?

WHY IS THE HOLY SPIRIT MISSING FROM VISIONS WHERE JEHOVAH AND JESUS ARE PICTURED?

YES, WHERE IS THE HOLY SPIRIT'S THRONE?

JEHOVAH (THE FATHER) AND JESUS (HIS SON) HAVE PERSONAL NAMES, SO WHAT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT'S NAME, IF IT IS A PERSON?

WHERE ARE WE COMMANDED TO LOVE THE HOLY SPIRIT?

WHERE ARE WE TOLD THE HOLY SPIRIT LOVES US?

WHERE ARE WE TOLD OF THE LOVE BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT OR BETWEEN THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT?

WHY DID IT TAKE A FEW HUNDRED YEARS FOR “CHRISTIANS” TO FIGURE OUT THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS A PERSON WHO IS PART OF A TRINITY?

March 13, 2007 at 7:15 am#44703

Participant

Quote

…by “looking it up” I don't mean the verse itself (in a Bible), I meant in your WT expositional resources…..

First, I think I told you a while ago that I don't play by “your” rules.

Secondly, I tried to look it up and there isn't really anything on those couple words in question in the middle of that verse. Nothing. So, I followed what you said, but only because breaking “your” rule was physically impossible.

March 13, 2007 at 7:17 am#44705

Participant

Hi WJ, long time.

Quote

Also could you give me your interpretation of 2 Cor 6:16 & 2 Cor 13:5?

I have no idea how either of these verses could be taken to imply anything of a trinity or anything obout the holy spirit. Maybe I had the wrong verses, or you do? ?

March 13, 2007 at 7:20 am#44706

Participant

Hey David it's not an overtly unfair or difficult question, I just want your own interpretation of Galatians 4:6….what did Paul mean by:

“Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba!”Father!”]

Just a quick synopsis will do.

March 13, 2007 at 7:25 am#44707

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 13 2007,08:17)

Hi WJ, long time.

Quote

Also could you give me your interpretation of 2 Cor 6:16 & 2 Cor 13:5?

I have no idea how either of these verses could be taken to imply anything of a trinity or anything obout the holy spirit. Maybe I had the wrong verses, or you do? ?

David

Here, this is the verses!

2 Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

By this scripture how does Father dwell in us David?

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

By this scripture how does Yeshua dwell in us David?

How would you explain this?

March 13, 2007 at 7:33 am#44709

Participant

Quote

Just a quick synopsis will do.

A quick synopsis leads to very long conversations. It's 1:30 in the morning and I'm going to sleep.
JOHN 14:26
“But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name. . .”

ROMANS 5:5
“and the hope does not lead to disappointment; because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy spirit, which was given us.”

We see in all cases that it is God (not Jesus) that is doing the sending of this spirit. We see that in John 14, we are told that the Father would send the holy spirit in Jesus name.
And we see this scripture it says: “God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts,”
The spirit of Jesus has been sent into their hearts. God sent his spirit in Jesus name. I don't know if there's a delema here? I'm not quite certain what the issue is.

I'm going to bed. In the mean time, you can explain why this scripture proves the trinity.

March 13, 2007 at 7:34 am#44711

Participant

Quote

By this scripture how does Father dwell in us David?

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

By this scripture how does Yeshua dwell in us David?

How would you explain this?

If you are implying that this somehow proves they are the same….

I dwell in this house.
Hey,so does my wife.
We are not a trinity.

done.

March 13, 2007 at 7:44 am#44713

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 13 2007,08:33)

Quote

Just a quick synopsis will do.

A quick synopsis leads to very long conversations. It's 1:30 in the morning and I'm going to sleep.
JOHN 14:26
“But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name. . .”

ROMANS 5:5
“and the hope does not lead to disappointment; because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy spirit, which was given us.”

I'm going to bed. In the mean time, you can explain why this scripture proves the trinity.

So are you saying that when Paul wrote “”God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts” he meant that He sent it in “Jesus' name”?

Is that your interpretation?

March 13, 2007 at 7:53 am#44716

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 13 2007,07:34)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2007,10:46)

Hi Is 1.18,
God's spirit filled the Son and in the Son is called the Spirit of Christ.

Otherwise Rom 8 .9 makes no sense in the sequential context, between the first part of the verse, which is naturally correlated to the second in they have the same meaning.

“9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. “

The Spirit of God helps us communicate with God being always in communication with God and by helping us by giving us the language to speak with God with.

While I wait for t8 to give his understanding of this verse I'll give you my reply….

I'm sorry, but I find this an utterly ridiculous interpretation of Galatians 4:6.

This was too abrasive. I apologise. Let me rephrase – I think you are drawing a long bow with your interpretation and the verse really doesn't need to be interpreted, it speaks for itself.

March 13, 2007 at 8:57 am#44720

NickHassan

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
The Spirit was given to Christ as a gift and God gives gifts without repentance.
That Spirit of God unites Christ with his God.

Rom 11
“29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. “

So that gift now can be called the Spirit of Christ.
It is still however the Spirit of God as to origin and the Holy Spirit as to nature.
God could have chosen to pour of His own Spirit again into the followers of Christ but chose instead that the gift must be poured from Christ to unite us to him.

Jn 7
” 37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

By the choice of God we must come, not to Himself, but to Jesus to drink from his gifted Spirit to bring all into unity with the Father.

March 13, 2007 at 3:49 pm#44735

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 13 2007,08:34)

Quote

By this scripture how does Father dwell in us David?

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

By this scripture how does Yeshua dwell in us David?

How would you explain this?

If you are implying that this somehow proves they are the same….

I dwell in this house.
Hey,so does my wife.
We are not a trinity.

done.

David

No, but you and your wife are “One Flesh” are you not?

The Spirit of God is One!

The Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit are terms we use for the One selfsame Spirit we drink into!

The Spirit is God! God is a Spirit!

Study the terms David and you will see that the Lord is the Spirit!

Blessings

March 13, 2007 at 6:35 pm#44742

NickHassan

Participant

Hi W,
Are you and your wife eternally one?

March 13, 2007 at 7:02 pm#44746

NickHassan

Participant

Hi W,
You say
“The Spirit of God is One!

The Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit are terms we use for the One selfsame Spirit we drink into!”

Yes.
But the Son had life in Himself.
A man like us he died and his OWN spirit returned to God.

Matt 27
' 50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. “

mk 15
'37And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last.

Lk 23
“46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

Jn 19
30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

He died.
The spirit being that had been with God in the beginning died.

March 13, 2007 at 7:39 pm#44747