- This topic has 6,304 replies, 115 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 11 months ago by
.
- Posts
The Holy Spirit is Yahweh. (God)
The Holy Spirit is a Person:
a. He performs personal actions in association with other persons: Matthew 28:19; Acts 15:28;
Revelation 22:17 – NB The Holy Spirit is a separate person from the Father and Jesus – Matthew
28:19 etc.b.Takes the place of Jesus: John 14:16. Could an impersonal force take the place of the Divine Jesus on earth?
c.The Greek word translated “Comforter,” “Helper,” or similar here is parakletos. This New Testament Greek word is never applied to other than persons.
d.In John chapters 14-16 Jesus deliberately broke the rules of Greek Grammar and referred to the Holy Spirit as “He,” “Him,” etc. Noted Theologians such as Leon Morris and J. I. Packer have noted this. Bible Scholar Woodrow Whidden, on page 71 of The Trinity, says, “we should observe that while the word ‘Spirit’ (Greek pneuma) is in the neuter gender in Greek, the personal pronoun ekeinos (‘that one,’ or ‘He,’ clearly used to refer to the neuter Spirit) is in the masculine gender. It is this grammatical fact that has led the majority of translators to render the other personal pronouns called for in these passages as ‘He’ rather than ‘it’ or ‘that one’…” The Greek word for “Spirit” is a neuter word and therefore should rightly be referred to as “it” but a perusal of Bible translations will confirm that because of what Whidden has stated Bible translators feel compelled to translate various pronouns as “He” etc. We must either accept that Jesus did this in order to make it clear to us that the Holy Spirit is a Person, or, we have to accept that our perfect Jesus made a number of uncharacteristic blunders.
e.He exhibits qualities which evidence personal existence: Mind – Romans 8:27; 1 Corinthians 2:10, Will – 1 Corinthians 12:11, Foreknowledge – John 16:13, He speaks – Acts 1:16, Commands and Forbids – Acts 8:29; 11:12; 13:2, 4; (In these verses just mentions He refers to Himself as “me” and “I.” If this was not a Person speaking then language doesn’t mean anything anymore); 16:6, 7; 10:19, 20, Appoints – Acts 20:28, Vexed and Grieved – Isaiah 63:10; Ephesians 4:30, Works Miracles – Acts 2:4; 8:39, Can be insulted – Hebrews 10:29, Blasphemed – Mark 3:29, Loves us – Romans 15:30.
The Holy Spirit is God:
Most, even those who deny the personality of the Holy Spirit, will admit that He is God in some way.
a.He is clearly referred to as God: Acts 5:3, 4.
b.Compare 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17 with 6:19 and also 2 Corinthians 6:16.
Compare 1 Corinthians 12:11 with 12:28.c.The Holy Spirit is Yahweh: Compare Jeremiah 31:33, 34 with Hebrews 10:15-17.
“ Psalm 95:7-11 with Hebrews 3:7-11.
“ Isaiah 6:9, 10 with Acts 28:25-28.
“ 2 Samuel 23:2 with 2 Samuel 23:3.d. The Holy Spirit is Eternal: Hebrews 9:14.
It is quite ridiculous really to say that the Holy Spirit is just the spiritual presence of the Father or the Son or of both. At the baptism of Jesus the Three were manifested there. The Father spoke from heaven, Jesus was in the water being baptized, and the Holy Spirit came down upon Jesus like a dove. The Father and Jesus needed no spiritual presence of any third party. Remember too the baptismal formula Jesus gave at Matthew 28:19 – “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Blind Freddy can surely see that there are Three Persons in the Heavenly Trio.
Holy Holy! Holy!The Holy Spirit is Yahweh. (God)
Spirit of wisdom and grace
Jesus waxing strong in spirit, a spirit of wisdom grace ( fear is the beginning of the spirit of wisdom)
Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Christ receiving the Holy Ghost and now is filled with the spirit of grace and wisdom and then last the Holy Ghost,A prepared Body of our Lord Jesuse Christ receiving power as the Son of God
Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
The Holy Ghost specks out of Christ’s Fathers mouth
Act 1:16 Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Receiving the promise of the holy ghost spoken by the Holy Ghost through his father David mouth;
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
May the power of death be swallowed up by fully understanding the instructions to follow; God has not asked us to follow Christ if we can't possibly do so
Sanctified by HIS FATHER DAVIDS COVERNENT OF MERCY free of charge, add the father David into the equation, for by his heart he signified consent as a vessel for the holy ghost, in which Christ also glorifies his father for his works of righteousness that by grace made him to be the repairer of the breach and wastes of many generations.
Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the $Spirit of grace?$
Who Made receiving the Holy Ghost into a Law?
charity
Quote (Cult Buster @ Jan. 04 2007,09:35) The Holy Spirit is Yahweh. (God) The Holy Spirit is a Person:
a. He performs personal actions in association with other persons: Matthew 28:19; Acts 15:28;
Revelation 22:17 – NB The Holy Spirit is a separate person from the Father and Jesus – Matthew
28:19 etc.b.Takes the place of Jesus: John 14:16. Could an impersonal force take the place of the Divine Jesus on earth?
c.The Greek word translated “Comforter,” “Helper,” or similar here is parakletos. This New Testament Greek word is never applied to other than persons.
d.In John chapters 14-16 Jesus deliberately broke the rules of Greek Grammar and referred to the Holy Spirit as “He,” “Him,” etc. Noted Theologians such as Leon Morris and J. I. Packer have noted this. Bible Scholar Woodrow Whidden, on page 71 of The Trinity, says, “we should observe that while the word ‘Spirit’ (Greek pneuma) is in the neuter gender in Greek, the personal pronoun ekeinos (‘that one,’ or ‘He,’ clearly used to refer to the neuter Spirit) is in the masculine gender. It is this grammatical fact that has led the majority of translators to render the other personal pronouns called for in these passages as ‘He’ rather than ‘it’ or ‘that one’…” The Greek word for “Spirit” is a neuter word and therefore should rightly be referred to as “it” but a perusal of Bible translations will confirm that because of what Whidden has stated Bible translators feel compelled to translate various pronouns as “He” etc. We must either accept that Jesus did this in order to make it clear to us that the Holy Spirit is a Person, or, we have to accept that our perfect Jesus made a number of uncharacteristic blunders.
e.He exhibits qualities which evidence personal existence: Mind – Romans 8:27; 1 Corinthians 2:10, Will – 1 Corinthians 12:11, Foreknowledge – John 16:13, He speaks – Acts 1:16, Commands and Forbids – Acts 8:29; 11:12; 13:2, 4; (In these verses just mentions He refers to Himself as “me” and “I.” If this was not a Person speaking then language doesn’t mean anything anymore); 16:6, 7; 10:19, 20, Appoints – Acts 20:28, Vexed and Grieved – Isaiah 63:10; Ephesians 4:30, Works Miracles – Acts 2:4; 8:39, Can be insulted – Hebrews 10:29, Blasphemed – Mark 3:29, Loves us – Romans 15:30.
The Holy Spirit is God:
Most, even those who deny the personality of the Holy Spirit, will admit that He is God in some way.
a.He is clearly referred to as God: Acts 5:3, 4.
b.Compare 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17 with 6:19 and also 2 Corinthians 6:16.
Compare 1 Corinthians 12:11 with 12:28.c.The Holy Spirit is Yahweh: Compare Jeremiah 31:33, 34 with Hebrews 10:15-17.
“ Psalm 95:7-11 with Hebrews 3:7-11.
“ Isaiah 6:9, 10 with Acts 28:25-28.
“ 2 Samuel 23:2 with 2 Samuel 23:3.d. The Holy Spirit is Eternal: Hebrews 9:14.
It is quite ridiculous really to say that the Holy Spirit is just the spiritual presence of the Father or the Son or of both. At the baptism of Jesus the Three were manifested there. The Father spoke from heaven, Jesus was in the water being baptized, and the Holy Spirit came down upon Jesus like a dove. The Father and Jesus needed no spiritual presence of any third party. Remember too the baptismal formula Jesus gave at Matthew 28:19 – “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Blind Freddy can surely see that there are Three Persons in the Heavenly Trio.
Holy Holy! Holy!The Holy Spirit is Yahweh. (God)
Sure the Holy Spirit is God. Is your spirit you? Is your spirit a separate person?
Even we are gods on a much smaller scale but according to Jesus those who have the Holy Spirit are gods, children of God. Does that make us equal with the Father?Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),
Has your spirit ever been grieved? Does that make your spirit a separate person? Have you ever been decieved does that make your spirit a separate person?
Oxy sorry but I didn't judge nor chastise. Don't you think you were just a bit out of line to even think that just “your” group would have Spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts are not something special to the child of God they are the norm.
Do you Oxy believe that the Son and Holy Spirit are equal with the Father~I don't think so~ so really you don't believe in the Trinity. Why do you suppose that you have a different view of the Trinity?
We have common ground on which to work.
Jesus is God
The Holy Spirit is God
And the Father IS GOD of everythingThe difference is that you believe that the Holy Spirit is a separate person. Can't we reason on this? Is the Spirit a Son of God? No the Spirit is God, being God's Spirit. When the Holy Spirit speaks it is God that is speaking not a third person.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:
The Father who has slightly more power than we His children and even Jesus can and does send His Spirit to speak for Him to relay His thoughts.
Mar 13:11 And when they lead you to judgment, and deliver you up, be not anxious beforehand what ye shall speak: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.
Quote We have common ground on which to work.
Jesus is God
The Holy Spirit is God
And the Father IS GOD of everythingkenrch
Tell me, is this three seperate Gods or three in one?
Quote The Father gave Jesus all authority. If Jesus were equal with the Father (and that's what the Trinity doctrine states) then why would the Father have to GIVE anything to Jesus? Why is Jesus going to give His new kingdon to the Father? kenrch
I dont think most Trinitarians believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in rank.
But equal in Substance, essence and nature, 100% God!
Example:
Father has son
Son not equal in rank
Son equal in that he is 100% human.
God = Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 04 2007,16:00) Quote The Father gave Jesus all authority. If Jesus were equal with the Father (and that's what the Trinity doctrine states) then why would the Father have to GIVE anything to Jesus? Why is Jesus going to give His new kingdon to the Father? kenrch
I dont think most Trinitarians believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in rank.
But equal in Substance, essence and nature, 100% God!
Example:
Father has son
Son not equal in rank
Son equal in that he is 100% human.
God = Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Then my friend AND brother you don't believe in the Catholic Trinity. So is there another doctrine perhaps of one of her daughters that I don't know about? A different version perhaps of the same doctrine?Just trying to make sense of what exactly you and Oxy do believe. Because if you and Oxy don't believe that “they” are equal then the Catholic church taught me wrong as to what was the definition of the Trinity doctrine is.
So what exactly is your and Oxy's definition of the Harlot's doctrine? Oh now see I didn't mean to be so crude, that's just my flesh rising up to a challenge. But I am VERY curious as to what is your definition of the Trinity since it doesn't line up with the originator of the Trinity doctrine?
If I believe that the Son is God (though God of the New creation) and the Holy Spirit is God and you don't believe they are equal and the Father Is God of ALL then why argue at all lets reason and not quarrel about a doctrine that was made by the Harlot of Rev ch. 17. that you don't even follow.
David… Look mate, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to reneg on addressing your questions. I have realised that every question you raised could turn into a debate on its own and quite frankly, I have more urgent things to attend to. I'm truely sorry, but I have a conference to organise, people who need ministering to and web pages to write.
I don't think anything I say will change your mind or your stand, so I think it best to let it go.
I pray that God will bless you.
There is one other thing I had one Trinity believer (who wasn't catholic) said that if I didn't believe in the Trinty then I wasn't saved. Ooooh what a judge according to a law in my view isn't even in the bible!
I believe that God is a Spirit and should be worshiped as such and I believe that Jesus is His only begotten Son that died so that I could be saved into His new kingdom. But somehow that is not enough for those who believe in the Trinty. Tell me is this how you believe… if so then there is no use to even discuss anything as you would never break their rule, right?
Quote Then my friend AND brother you don't believe in the Catholic Trinity. So is there another doctrine perhaps of one of her daughters that I don't know about? A different version perhaps of the same doctrine? Just trying to make sense of what exactly you and Oxy do believe. Because if you and Oxy don't believe that “they” are equal then the Catholic church taught me wrong as to what was the definition of the Trinity doctrine is.
So what exactly is your and Oxy's definition of the Harlot's doctrine? Oh now see I didn't mean to be so crude, that's just my flesh rising up to a challenge. But I am VERY curious as to what is your definition of the Trinity since it doesn't line up with the originator of the Trinity doctrine?
kenrch
Whats all the animosity here?
I simply made a point that I dont think most who hold a trinitarian view believe that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same in rank!
From what I have seen most trinitarians are not even Catholic but were saved as protestants. So I suppose you could make a broad statement and say that if you believe the trinitarian view that you are part of the harlot church.
But Ive asked many here if they believe that Jesus is the messiah and that he is the only savior and if they believe in his shed blood and the gift of the Spirit and his death and his ressurection and his virgin birth and on and on, of which by the way the Catholics believe also.
So should I say that because you believe these things that you are of the harlot church?
Heck why dont we go back to Athanasius and Arian. Basically we could say that if you believe Jesus is God or hold a trinitarian view then you are of Athanasius, but if you are ant-trinitarian or dont believe Jesus is God than you are of Arius.
Which one are you? Are you of the Arians or a dirrivitave of them or are you of Athanasius?
Labeling someone of a particular group because they believe a certain way means nothing. I believe some of the things JWs believe(not much) but does that mean Im a JW?
BTW. Do those you hang out with or your group see eye to eye on everything?
Just curious!
Still waiting on an answer to my question.
Quote We have common ground on which to work.
Jesus is God
The Holy Spirit is God
And the Father IS GOD of everythingkenrch
Tell me, is this three seperate Gods or three in one?
Quote There is one other thing I had one Trinity believer (who wasn't catholic) said that if I didn't believe in the Trinty then I wasn't saved. Ooooh what a judge according to a law in my view isn't even in the bible! I believe that God is a Spirit and should be worshiped as such and I believe that Jesus is His only begotten Son that died so that I could be saved into His new kingdom. But somehow that is not enough for those who believe in the Trinty. Tell me is this how you believe… if so then there is no use to even discuss anything as you would never break their rule, right?
kenrch
No I dont believe that?
But guess what, many on this sight believe I need to be saved for having a trinitarian view, and I suppose like you said I need to come out of the harlot church.
NH has told me this, and t8 has said I need to repent.
So I just nod and keep on Loving Jesus. But I do pray that those who watch and listen that they will come to know the truth.
Quote If I believe that the Son is God (though God of the New creation) and the Holy Spirit is God and you don't believe they are equal and the Father Is God of ALL then why argue at all lets reason and not quarrel about a doctrine that was made by the Harlot of Rev ch. 17. that you don't even follow. kenrch
BTW. This whole thing about Revelation calling the catholic church the harlot church. I dont buy it.
There is no scripture that says the catholic church is the harlot spoken of in revelation.
Im not convinced. There are many religions rising that claim many things that could be compared to the harlot.
I think I will reseve judgment until God shows me otherwise!
Watch the Islamic movement for instance!
Blessings
Quote avid… Look mate, I'm sorry but I'm going to have to reneg on addressing your questions. I have realised that every question you raised could turn into a debate on its own and quite frankly, I have more urgent things to attend to. I'm truely sorry, but I have a conference to organise, people who need ministering to and web pages to write. I don't think anything I say will change your mind or your stand, so I think it best to let it go.
THAT'S OK
OXY,
I DIDNT REALLY EXPECT YOU WOULD OR COULD ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS.
THEY ARE INDEED TROUBLING QUESTIONS TO SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON TO BE WORSHIPED AS GOD.
SO NO PROBLEMS.
I UNDERSTAND YOU ARE BUSY. I AM TOO. I STILL HAVE A LOT OF RESEARCH TO DO ON THIS.YOU SAY THAT YOU DON'T THINK ANYTHING YOU WOULD SAY WOULD CHANGE MY MIND. BUT BY REFUSING TO SAY ANYTHING WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT TELLS MY MIND? YOU ONLY RE-INFORCE THAT WHAT I BELIEVE IS RIGHT.
But thanks for at least considering looking at my questions.
dave
PEOPLE PEOPLE LISTEN LISTEN AND YOU WILL HEAR. The Master (Jesuschrist) always said listen and understand BUT DO WE LISTEN NO WE GO ON AND INSTEAD MAKE OUR LITTLE BELIEF THAT JESUS CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN WAS A SPIRIT LIKE GOD AND HE CAME AND TO A HUMAN BODY TO SAVE THE WORLD. I DON`T BELIEVE THAT I BELIEVE THAT CHRIST DIDN`T EXIST IN HEAVEN AT ALL.HE CAME AS A MAN REMEMBER THIS. SO DO WE LIVE IN HEAVEN TOO AND THEN TOOK A BODY HERE ON EARTH NO NO SO WHY DID YOU ALL BELIEVE JESUS DID. THEN HE IS NOT MAN LIKE MAN. THE BIBLE SAY GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD(PEOPLE) THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON… GOD CAN NOT BREAK HIS OWN LAWS WE ARE HUMANS NOT ANGELS WE ARE SPIRIT BUT HAVE A HUMAN BODY THATS OUR MAKE UP AND GOD COULD NOT BREAK HIS OWN LAWS TO SAVE US FROM OUR DELIMA (SINS) SO THATS WHY IT SAYS HE GAVE HIS ONLY SON………..BORN OF MARY FATHER YAHWEH…THE LAMB OF GOD. YOU SEE YOU ALL CAN`T BELIEVE THIS BECAUSE YOU STILL BLINDED BY THE DEVIL ONE DAY YOU WILL WAKE UP. AND NO IM NOT SAYING WORSHIP MARY BUT YOU BETTER RESPECT HER FOR SHE IS THE MOTHER OF JESUSCHRIST………….BY THE WAY THE MUSK (TEMPLE)ON THE MOUNTAIN IN ISREAL WHERE THE JEWISH TEMPLE USED TO BE WELL THAT TEMPLE ON THE GOLD DOME ITS SAY (GOD HAS NO SON) THATS THE MUSLIMS RELIGION AND YOU ALL CHRISTIAN TODAY CHRISTAIN BELIEVE THAT SAME JUST IN OTHER WORDS ………..DEMON THEOLGY
Quote (david @ Jan. 05 2007,04:13) And God's holy spirit?
And God’s Holy Spirit?Whats that mean then?
We know God is a spirit, dose the spirit have a Holy spirit?
Is your mind seeing God seperate from the holy spirit?
Satan confuses much from the heart to the lips.
I respect WorshippingJesus but Jesus has said I should be WorshippingGod in spirit
God said my grace is enough for all of us
I find it honrable to see all the searchers at work everyone
All those who are interested enough to keep searching deserve reward so….. keep searchingcharity
David
Quote I DIDNT REALLY EXPECT YOU WOULD OR COULD ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS.
THEY ARE INDEED TROUBLING QUESTIONS TO SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON TO BE WORSHIPED AS GOD.Not one bit troubling David.
There are Three separate Divine Beings in the Godhead. Each God and equal with one another.
The point I have tried to make is that the name Jehovah is the family name of God. Therefore when Christ is referred to in scripture as Jehovah, it is referring to Christ and not the Father. Likewise the Holy Spirit.
The Catholic trinity is a different concept and some on this forum are using the Catholic doctrine to avoid facing the Godhead truth and to try to confuse matters so as to promote their Arian doctrine.
The Catholic church teaches that originally there was only God the Father who “knew Himself” or copulated with Himself producing the Son; and later the Holy Spirit came out of both of them.
This is as blasphemous as the Arian doctrine promoted on this forum.
The Bible says that there are Three. Each God and eternal.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
The Holy Spirit is God (Yahweh):
Most, even those who deny the personality of the Holy Spirit, will admit that He is God in some way.
a.He is clearly referred to as God: Acts 5:3, 4.
b.Compare 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17 with 6:19 and also 2 Corinthians 6:16.
Compare 1 Corinthians 12:11 with 12:28.c.The Holy Spirit is Yahweh: Compare Jeremiah 31:33, 34 with Hebrews 10:15-17.
“ Psalm 95:7-11 with Hebrews 3:7-11.
“ Isaiah 6:9, 10 with Acts 28:25-28.
“ 2 Samuel 23:2 with 2 Samuel 23:3.d. The Holy Spirit is Eternal: Hebrews 9:14.
It is quite ridiculous really to say that the Holy Spirit is just the spiritual presence of the Father or the Son or of both. At the baptism of Jesus the Three were manifested there. The Father spoke from heaven, Jesus was in the water being baptized, and the Holy Spirit came down upon Jesus like a dove. The Father and Jesus needed no spiritual presence of any third party. Remember too the baptismal formula Jesus gave at Matthew 28:19 – “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Blind Freddy can surely see that there are Three Persons in the Heavenly Trio.
Quote David
Quote
I DIDNT REALLY EXPECT YOU WOULD OR COULD ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS.
THEY ARE INDEED TROUBLING QUESTIONS TO SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON TO BE WORSHIPED AS GOD.Not one bit troubling David.
If they are not “one bit troubling,” why don't you answer any of them?
If it's no trouble, read my questions, and answer them.You say:
Quote The Bible says that there are Three. Each God and eternal. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Yes, here we see a list of three. But nowhere does this scripture say what you suggest: that it shows that each are God and eternal.
“Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” or “Peter, James and John” are mentioned together in groups of three many times, way more than the supposed trinity. The phrase: “Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” appears in the Bible 15 times that I can see.
In view of this, the fact that the Father, Son and holy spirit are found mentioned in the same place only once or twice is almost an argument against the trinity!McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, though advocating the Trinity doctrine, acknowledges regarding Matthew 28:18-20:
“This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity.” (1981 reprint, Vol. X, p. 552)If it doesn’t prove any of these things, what does it prove?
1, 2…Yes, you can count to 3. I’ll give you that.As well, if you argue that the holy spirit is listed with the Father and Son and they are persons, so the holy spirit must be a person, then the same rule would apply when it is listed with impersonal things, and that is often.
One example: As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. Maybe the holy spirit is also a trinity with water and blood.
Another example: The apostle Paul recommended himself as God’s minister “by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy.”—2 Corinthians 6:4-6.
At Matthew 28:19 reference is made to “the name . . . of the holy spirit.” But the word “name” does not always mean a personal name, either in Greek or in English. When we say “in the name of the law,” we are not referring to a person. We mean that which the law stands for, its authority. Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament says: “The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority.” So baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ recognizes the authority of the spirit, that it is from God and functions by divine will.
Anyway, this scripture no more suggests that the three mentioned are one Godhead anymore than the numerous mentioning of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are one being. And they are named together much much more so.
The only thing this scripture proves is that you can count to three. Congrats on that, by the way.
Quote The Holy Spirit is God
Interesting that you should say this. It's a phraze that is of course nowhere found in the Bible. The Bible refers to God's holy spirit, or the spirt of God, etc. But it nowhere says: “The holy spirit is God.”How many times does the Bible “tell”us that Jehovah is God? Expressions we find in the Bible:
Jehovah God–50 times
the [true] God Jehovah–4 times
Jehovah their God–39 times
Jehovah the [true] God–8 times.
Jehovah is in truth God–1 time
Jehovah is God–1 time
Jehovah is my God–1 time
Jehovah is our God–1 time
Jehovah your God–455 times
Jehovah our God–105 times
Jehovah my God–40 times
Jehovah his God–29 times
Jehovah is a God–7 times
Jehovah the God of–204 times
Jehovah a God–1 timeDoes the Bible ever say: “the holy spirit is my God,” or “holy spirit the God” or “the holy spirit my God”?
I can literally show you a thousand scriptures that make plain that Jehovah is God. Where are the scriptures that say what you claim?Quote Most, even those who deny the personality of the Holy Spirit, will admit that He is God in some way.
God's holy spirit is never refered to as God. It is God's finger, his hand, his means of getting things done.Quote a. He is clearly referred to as God: Acts 5:3, 4.
I'm afraid you aren't clear on what the word “clearly” means.
The thousand scriptures I speak of clearly without question say: “Jehovah is God,” etc.
ACTS 5:3-4
“But Peter said: “An·a·ni′as, why has Satan emboldened you to play false to the holy spirit and to hold back secretly some of the price of the field? As long as it remained with you did it not remain yours, and after it was sold did it not continue in your control? Why was it that you purposed such a deed as this in your heart? You have played false, not to men, but to God.””Notice that no such statment is made such as you claim. It is not clear.
In the Bible, God’s holy spirit is often synonymous with God himself. In Acts 5:3, Peter says Ananias lied to “the Holy Spirit.” In verse 4 Peter says he lied to “God.” This is an example of the common Semitic parallelism of equivalent terms, and is not evidence that Ananias lied to two separate persons. If that were the case, why would verse 4 not say that Ananias lied to “the Father” instead of to “God.” Neither is this parallelism evidence that another divine person called “the Holy Spirit” is also “God” and therefore part of a triune “Godhead.”Quote b. Compare 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17 with 6:19 and also 2 Corinthians 6:16.
1 CORINTHIANS 3:16-17
“Do YOU not know that YOU people are God’s temple, and that the spirit of God dwells in YOU? If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] YOU people are.”
(THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU; IE: GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT DWELLS IN YOU)1 CORINTHIANS 6:19
“What! Do YOU not know that the body of YOU people is [the] temple of the holy spirit within YOU, which YOU have from God? Also, YOU do not belong to yourselves,”
(HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, WHICH YOU HAVE FROM GOD; IE: GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT.)Quote c. The Holy Spirit is Yahweh: Compare Jeremiah 31:33, 34 with Hebrews 10:1
5-17.
“ Psalm 95:7-11 with Hebrews 3:7-11.
“ Isaiah 6:9, 10 with Acts 28:25-28.
“ 2 Samuel 23:2 with 2 Samuel 23:3.
I've compared them all. None of them prove what you believe. Some of them disprove what you believe. If you feel strongly that one of these proves you are right, please post which one.Quote d. The Holy Spirit is Eternal: Hebrews 9:14.
God's love is eternal.
God's wisdom is eternal.
God's life is eternal.
God's justice is eternal.
God's holy spirit is of course eternal.More than a hundred times the holy spirit is referred to as “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” “my spirit” and “spirit of Jesus Christ.”
All such possessive uses of the holy spirit further argue that it is an instrumentality rather than a separate and distinct person.—Judg. 3:10; Matt. 3:16; Acts 2:18; Phil. 1:19; Ps 51:11; Joel 2:28,29Quote It is quite ridiculous really to say that the Holy Spirit is just the spiritual presence of the Father or the Son or of both. At the baptism of Jesus the Three were manifested there.
At Jesus' baptism in Matthew 3:16, Jesus received God's spirit at that time, which conflicts with the idea that the Son was always one with the Holy Spirit.Quote The Father spoke from heaven, Jesus was in the water being baptized, and the Holy Spirit came down upon Jesus like a dove.
I have a question. If God is somewhere, is his wisdom there? Is his love there? Of course God's holy spirit can be spoken of as being where God is. This doesn't make it God.
YOu mentioned that the holy spirit was there “like a dove.” How odd.
Jehovah and Jesus are time and again represented as persons, as sitting on thrones, as wearing crowns, etc. Never so of the holy spirit. I wonder why. Hmmm. The holy spirit is pictured as numerous non-person like things. hmmmm.
Yes, the ability to find a scripture or 3 or 4 with the mention of God and Jesus and the holy spirit is quite impressive.
I guess then, that Peter, james and John are a trinity. I guess Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are a trinity, for they are mentioned together many many times, way more than God/Jesus/holy spirit are. hmmmm.
I guess what you said really proves nothing.Quote Remember too the baptismal formula Jesus gave at Matthew 28:19 – “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Blind Freddy can surely see that there are Three Persons in the Heavenly Trio. YOU LIKE QUOTING THIS SCRIPTURE. I WOULD LOVE….LOVE FOR YOU TO EXPLAIN TO ME:
–WHAT IT PROVES.
–WHY AND HOW IT PROVES THIS.DOES IT SHOW THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD?
DOES IT SHOW THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS CO-EQUAL?
DOES IT SHOW THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON?IF THE ANSWER TO ANY OF THESE QUESTIONS IS “YES” PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THIS IS PROVEN.
BECAUSE ALL I SEE AND ALL THAT IS ACTUALLY THERE IS A LIST OF THREE.SO ALL THIS PROVES, IS THAT YOU HAVE MASTERED COUNTING TO THREE.
CB, please go back and read some of my questions beginning on page 65 and consider what the Bible says as a whole.
david
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 05 2007,00:15) Quote Then my friend AND brother you don't believe in the Catholic Trinity. So is there another doctrine perhaps of one of her daughters that I don't know about? A different version perhaps of the same doctrine? Just trying to make sense of what exactly you and Oxy do believe. Because if you and Oxy don't believe that “they” are equal then the Catholic church taught me wrong as to what was the definition of the Trinity doctrine is.
So what exactly is your and Oxy's definition of the Harlot's doctrine? Oh now see I didn't mean to be so crude, that's just my flesh rising up to a challenge. But I am VERY curious as to what is your definition of the Trinity since it doesn't line up with the originator of the Trinity doctrine?
kenrch
Whats all the animosity here?
I simply made a point that I dont think most who hold a trinitarian view believe that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same in rank!
From what I have seen most trinitarians are not even Catholic but were saved as protestants. So I suppose you could make a broad statement and say that if you believe the trinitarian view that you are part of the harlot church.
But Ive asked many here if they believe that Jesus is the messiah and that he is the only savior and if they believe in his shed blood and the gift of the Spirit and his death and his ressurection and his virgin birth and on and on, of which by the way the Catholics believe also.
So should I say that because you believe these things that you are of the harlot church?
Heck why dont we go back to Athanasius and Arian. Basically we could say that if you believe Jesus is God or hold a trinitarian view then you are of Athanasius, but if you are ant-trinitarian or dont believe Jesus is God than you are of Arius.
Which one are you? Are you of the Arians or a dirrivitave of them or are you of Athanasius?
Labeling someone of a particular group because they believe a certain way means nothing. I believe some of the things JWs believe(not much) but does that mean Im a JW?
BTW. Do those you hang out with or your group see eye to eye on everything?
Just curious!
Still waiting on an answer to my question.
Quote We have common ground on which to work.
Jesus is God
The Holy Spirit is God
And the Father IS GOD of everythingkenrch
Tell me, is this three seperate Gods or three in one?
Aminosity? I have no aminosity towards anyone. I'm simply trying to understand what you and Oxy believe. You believe that Jehovah is above the Son and His spirit then you don't believe what the Trinity doctrine states. I'm trying to get to a point that we as brothers and sisters can reason. We (at least I believe) have a common ground from which to reason.I have stated that Jesus is God of Jehovah's new creation until the last enemy will be defeated that enemy is death.
Jehovah has anointed Jesus “therefore God your God” has anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy fellow angels ~God~.
Again I ask If Jesus is the Father or equal to the Father then why would Jehovah have to GIVE Jesus all authority. If Jesus were equal with Jehovah He would already have the same authorty as the Father.
Again Jesus was sent on a mission that He has successfully completed and the fruits of His mission are still being born.
Jesus God in flesh. Sure Jesus the Son of God. Filled with the Holy Spirit (the mind of God) Jesus became the first fleshly temple of God (Luke 10:21). Do we not know that we are the living temple of God?
Again that is the Father's plan to have children. Jesus the first born from the dead that He would be the elder and therefore having prominence.
Jesus said we are gods and scripture cannot be broken. Why because we have God in us. We have the Holy Spirit. Does that make us equal with Jesus~NO!~ and surely not equal with Jesus' God.
The Holy Spirit is the Mind of the Father. His character, nature, power, ~GOD~.
Jesus the first born of God. We are to follow as God's children.
Three in one? God is one.
The Son is of God.
The Holy Spirit is God. The mind of God. In Luke 10:21 the Holy Spirit fills Jesus, that's when Jesus starts to speak to the Father After He is filled with the Father.
As I said we are created in God's image. We have a spirit is our spirit a seperate person? Jehovah has the power to send His thoughts through His Spirit.
Simply put:
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Are we equal with Christ the first born ~ NO~.
Is Christ Equal with the Father ~NO~.
Are woman equal to the man ~NO~ Although I believe in the Spirit there is no gender.BTW where is the Holy Spirit in the above scripture? Being a third person why isn't this separate person even mentioned?
Because when you say GOD that includes the Holy Spirit.Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. We are all God's children through Jesus Christ.
All of creation has but one Father. Jesus is of the Father we are of the Son who was the first begotten of the Father.
All God's children are gods being born again. God's family is growing so below the first Son are many other children. When the New Kingdom comes and death is defeated then the children will be manifested, ~GOD~ all in all.
Jesus KING of kings. Jesus LORD of lords. Jesus is KING of OTHER kings, LORD of OTHER lords and GOD of other gods. The Father being in everyone ~all in all~.
I would like someone to define their understanding of what the trinity is.
I understand what Catholics believe, but there are obviously some on here who teach or believe a trinity other than that. I want to have a precise understanding of your beliefs. I've asked this a few times. I have no reply. Can anyone make this plain to me.
david
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
