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Hi,
1Cor 2.10f
“…for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God”
So all men have a natural spirit including Christ.
In Christ we can know God by His Spirit.
God, like men, has thoughts and is not thought.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2006,09:17) Hi Malcolm,
The disciples were given the Holy Spirit before they were baptised in that Spirit.[Jn 20.22,cf Acts 2.1f]
Could this be similar with the Son of God having the Spirit from conception but baptised in that Spirit at the Jordan??
Did they receive the Holy Spirit or did they receive the promise of it? They were told to wait in Jerusalem until they were endued with power (authority) from on high
ACTS 1:4-5
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.I read that they were to wait for the baptism of the Holy Spirit which came on the day of Pentecost…
You are asking could the rebirth be therefore something other than the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Is that what you are asking?
It is true that there were those gentiles who received the Holy Spirit whilst Peter preached to them, having not yet been baptized in water. But that appears to be a filling as like Acts 2. It is an interesting question Nick, and I see your point – it is a breath upon them that seems very similar to that of Gen 2:7. In that instance Adam became a living soul yet had not come to the tree of life and eternal life… hmmmHi Malcolm,
Looking at Jn 20.21
“So Jesus said to them again
'Peace be with you; as the Father has sent me, I also send you'
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them
'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any they have been retained'”As you say he gave them of his breath similar to Gen 2. He used his authority to send them anointed but to await the overflowing baptism in the Spirit of Acts 2.
Hi ,
1Peter 1.10f tells us that the Spirit of Christ was within the prophets. Christ was the rock from which the waters of salvation flowed for Moses [1Cor 10.] This is because that Spirit is the Holy Spirit and does not mean Christ himself, thus had advance warning of the nature of human life because he had been here before. If it did we could not follow him because of such an advantage. Manifestations of the divine presence were given to be seen by men on earth but they were not Christ either.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2006,10:38) Hi Malcolm,
Looking at Jn 20.21
“So Jesus said to them again
'Peace be with you; as the Father has sent me, I also send you'
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them
'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any they have been retained'”As you say he gave them of his breath similar to Gen 2. He used his authority to send them anointed but to await the overflowing baptism in the Spirit of Acts 2.
Hi Nick
I said quoting Acts 1 – wait until you are endued with power (authority) from on high.
This is not correct the word in Greek is Dunamis (strength) not Exousia (authority) so this breath is as you say an authorization as the words that follow it confirm.So what you are saying about this being similar to Jesus before Jordan …
Yes in this sense that the outpouring of acts was not the rebirth but the gifts and empowerment that is given to the reborn.
We have a measure of this gifting of the Father's Spirit. He had the entire Holy Spirit Himself – the fullness of godhead – dwelling in him.However there are dissimilarities between this authorization of Jn 20 and Jesus before Jordan. For one – Jesus did not forgive or retain anyone's sins – or at least there is no record of it – before Jordan. Perhaps he had the potential to do it but withheld until the time appointed?…
As was the case with the disciples who did not enter into public ministry and testimony of Jesus until after the day of Pentecost…Hi Kenrch
What do you mean?
That Jesus in the capacity of Son of Man could judge sin?
What are you asking here?
God IN Christ remember. Jn 5:19Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 28 2006,01:56) We have a measure of this gifting of the Father's Spirit. He had the entire Holy Spirit Himself – the fullness of godhead – dwelling in him. However there are dissimilarities between this authorization of Jn 20 and Jesus before Jordan. For one – Jesus did not forgive or retain anyone's sins – or at least there is no record of it – before Jordan. Perhaps he had the potential to do it but withheld until the time appointed?…
As was the case with the disciples who did not enter into public ministry and testimony of Jesus until after the day of Pentecost…
Hi Malcolm,
The fulness of deity cannot mean “the entire Holy Spirit” surely. Is God so small and definable?Scripture does not say God has A SPIRIT but that God IS SPIRIT. I do not see anywhere that He who is spirit has a part of His being, called “The Holy Spirit” that is separate from His essential being, and can be completely given away.
If the spirit of God is like any other spirit of a being and it was given away that being would no longer have life surely. God is LIFE. Do you really see the Holy Spirit as being a separate part of the nature of God? God is surely not divided but HIS Spirit is shared.
I agree with kenrch that Jesus forgave sin by his own authority. He had been given that authority by God and he is to judge all men under that authority. He also gave that authority to the disciples in Jn 20.23.
Lk 5 20f
“He said
'Friend , your sins are forgiven'
The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason,saying'Who is this man who speaks blasphemies?Who can forgive sins, but God alone?'
But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them
'Why are you reasoning in your hearts?Which is easier , to say,
'your sins are forgiven you”
or to say
“Get up and walk”
BUT SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT THE SON OF MAN HAS AUTHORITY ON EARTH TO FORGIVE SINS”-
He said to the paralytic-
'I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher, and go home'”The question here is not about power-that power is from God- but authority. Jesus had the authority. God had sent him and equipped him and authorised him to do the work of God on earth and Jesus passed on the powers and authority to his followers.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2006,20:13) Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 28 2006,01:56) We have a measure of this gifting of the Father's Spirit. He had the entire Holy Spirit Himself – the fullness of godhead – dwelling in him. However there are dissimilarities between this authorization of Jn 20 and Jesus before Jordan. For one – Jesus did not forgive or retain anyone's sins – or at least there is no record of it – before Jordan. Perhaps he had the potential to do it but withheld until the time appointed?…
As was the case with the disciples who did not enter into public ministry and testimony of Jesus until after the day of Pentecost…
Hi Malcolm,
The fulness of deity cannot mean “the entire Holy Spirit” surely. Is God so small and definable?Scripture does not say God has A SPIRIT but that God IS SPIRIT. I do not see anywhere that He who is spirit has a part of His being, called “The Holy Spirit” that is separate from His essential being, and can be completely given away.
If the spirit of God is like any other spirit of a being and it was given away that being would no longer have life surely. God is LIFE. Do you really see the Holy Spirit as being a separate part of the nature of God? God is surely not divided but HIS Spirit is shared.
I agree with kenrch that Jesus forgave sin by his own authority. He had been given that authority by God and he is to judge all men under that authority. He also gave that authority to the disciples in Jn 20.23.
Lk 5 20f
“He said
'Friend , your sins are forgiven'
The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason,saying'Who is this man who speaks blasphemies?Who can forgive sins, but God alone?'
But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them
'Why are you reasoning in your hearts?Which is easier , to say,
'your sins are forgiven you”
or to say
“Get up and walk”
BUT SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT THE SON OF MAN HAS AUTHORITY ON EARTH TO FORGIVE SINS”-
He said to the paralytic-
'I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher, and go home'”The question here is not about power-that power is from God- but authority. Jesus had the authority. God had sent him and equipped him and authorised him to do the work of God on earth and Jesus passed on the powers and authority to his followers.
Quote The fulness of deity cannot mean “the entire Holy Spirit” surely. Is God so small and definable? We are told in the scriptures to make no image to God, does this mean God has no image?
Jesus is the image of the invisible God, and we are made in His image.
We are told that God is beyond us, past finding out with our finite human minds.
Yet does He remain unknown and unknowable to us, no, He reveals Himself to us in and by His Word. The first word to describe Him in the bible is ELOHIM – the strong one bound by His oath. Is God bound? Confined to a set of limitations? He is bound by the oath of His own Word, He is the True and the Faithful God, True to what? Faithful to what? Himself.
We are told that with God all things are possible, yet we are also told that there are some things God cannot do:
He cannot lie, cannot fail, cannot die.
Does this in any way limit Him? Is He not entitled to define Himself? Or is He so vast that He is beyond definition even by Himself?
We have to believe the record of someone concerning Himself, and He gives us His own record. We must believe that He is (is what? – what He declares Himself to be) and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him.Quote Scripture does not say God has A SPIRIT but that God IS SPIRIT. I do not see anywhere that He who is spirit has a part of His being, called “The Holy Spirit” that is separate from His essential being, and can be completely given away. The holy spirit is God, not a part of His being, He is Spirit as you say.
If God is Spirit and that spirit is only personalized in His creation – but is not definable in a person of Himself – then how is He a person – He is no more than a concept.
How does God being the Holy Spirit conflict with God being the Spirit of Life? It does not, the natural example of a human father and son shows us that: the father is the source of life (human life in this case – the spirit of man) the son is a part of that lifestream of the father (his life expressed in the son through the genes) The son has the life of his father in him, yet he is not his father. So that is a father and a son.Quote If the spirit of God is like any other spirit of a being and it was given away that being would no longer have life surely. God is LIFE. Yes He is the person of Life, and has life IN Him. Who says anything about His Spirit being 'given away' – or forfeited ? If I have a son, I am no less me, I am no more me, I do not lose any of my own life…
Quote Do you really see the Holy Spirit as being a separate part of the nature of God? God is surely not divided but HIS Spirit is shared. 'being a separate part of the nature of God?' no a spirit is not a nature – a spirit has a nature, but spirit is the life of that nature. God is a spirit not a nature, not a bunch of spirits that comprise His nature, He is A Spirit. A Being of Spirit, and that Spirit is called the Spirit of Life, Spirit of Truth, Holy Spirit – amongst other things.
The Holy Spirit is God – He is the Holy Spirit Himself.
You will find the Holy Spirit is personalized in Jesus' words concerning the comforter -The Holy Spirit is a He not an it.
As far as the lifestream expressed in a son: this is the life of God in a son to express God's eternal life in that son.Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 29 2006,05:25) Hi Kenrch What do you mean?
That Jesus in the capacity of Son of Man could judge sin?
What are you asking here?
God IN Christ remember. Jn 5:19
Oh Ok, I just remembered that scriptures do say that Jesus forgave sinMat 9:2 And behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, be of good cheer; thy sins are forgiven.
Mat 9:5 For which is easier, to say, Thy sins are forgiven; or to say, Arise, and walk?
Luk 5:20 And seeing their faith, he said, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
But you are right Jesus had the fullness of the Holy Spirit so the Father could do mighty works. Jesus is the Word and speaks for the Father.
That brings a question to mind. If we BELIEVE that our sins are forgiven then we like Jesus have no sin. We have a clean new spirit. Do you think we let Satan put the guilt trip on us and as a result we greive the Holy Spirit? And PERHAPS limit the work of the Spirit through us?
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 30 2006,00:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2006,20:13) Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 28 2006,01:56) We have a measure of this gifting of the Father's Spirit. He had the entire Holy Spirit Himself – the fullness of godhead – dwelling in him. However there are dissimilarities between this authorization of Jn 20 and Jesus before Jordan. For one – Jesus did not forgive or retain anyone's sins – or at least there is no record of it – before Jordan. Perhaps he had the potential to do it but withheld until the time appointed?…
As was the case with the disciples who did not enter into public ministry and testimony of Jesus until after the day of Pentecost…
Hi Malcolm,
The fulness of deity cannot mean “the entire Holy Spirit” surely. Is God so small and definable?Scripture does not say God has A SPIRIT but that God IS SPIRIT. I do not see anywhere that He who is spirit has a part of His being, called “The Holy Spirit” that is separate from His essential being, and can be completely given away.
If the spirit of God is like any other spirit of a being and it was given away that being would no longer have life surely. God is LIFE. Do you really see the Holy Spirit as being a separate part of the nature of God? God is surely not divided but HIS Spirit is shared.
I agree with kenrch that Jesus forgave sin by his own authority. He had been given that authority by God and he is to judge all men under that authority. He also gave that authority to the disciples in Jn 20.23.
Lk 5 20f
“He said
'Friend , your sins are forgiven'
The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason,saying'Who is this man who speaks blasphemies?Who can forgive sins, but God alone?'
But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them
'Why are you reasoning in your hearts?Which is easier , to say,
'your sins are forgiven you”
or to say
“Get up and walk”
BUT SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT THE SON OF MAN HAS AUTHORITY ON EARTH TO FORGIVE SINS”-
He said to the paralytic-
'I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher, and go home'”The question here is not about power-that power is from God- but authority. Jesus had the authority. God had sent him and equipped him and authorised him to do the work of God on earth and Jesus passed on the powers and authority to his followers.
Quote The fulness of deity cannot mean “the entire Holy Spirit” surely. Is God so small and definable? We are told in the scriptures to make no image to God, does this mean God has no image?
Jesus is the image of the invisible God, and we are made in His image.
We are told that God is beyond us, past finding out with our finite human minds.
Yet does He remain unknown and unknowable to us, no, He reveals Himself to us in and by His Word. The first word to describe Him in the bible is ELOHIM – the strong one bound by His oath. Is God bound? Confined to a set of limitations? He is bound by the oath of His own Word, He is the True and the Faithful God, True to what? Faithful to what? Himself.
We are told that with God all things are possible, yet we are also told that there are some things God cannot do:
He cannot lie, cannot fail, cannot die.
Does this in any way limit Him? Is He not entitled to define Himself? Or is He so vast that He is beyond definition even by Himself?
We have to believe the record of someone concerning Himself, and He gives us His own record. We must believe that He is (is what? – what He declares Himself to be) and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him.Quote Scripture does not say God has A SPIRIT but that God IS SPIRIT. I do not see anywhere that He who is spirit has a part of His being, called “The Holy Spirit” that is separate from His essential being, and can be completely given away. The holy spirit is God, not a part of His being, He is Spirit as you say.
If God is Spirit and that spirit is only personalized in His creation – but is not definable in a person of Himself – then how is He a person – He is no more than a concept.
How does God being the Holy Spirit conflict with God being the Spirit of Life? It does not, the natural example of a human father and son shows us that: the father is the source of life (human life in this case – the spirit of man) the son is a part of that lifestream of the father (his life expressed in the son through the genes) The son has the life of his father in him, yet he is not his father. So that is a father and a son.Quote If the spirit of God is like any other spirit of a being and it was given away that being would no longer have life surely. God is LIFE. Yes He is the person of Life, and has life IN Him. Who says anything about His Spirit being 'given away' – or forfeited ? If I have a son, I am no less me, I am no more me, I do not lose any of my own life…
Quote Do you really see the Holy Spirit as being a separate part of the nature of God? God is surely not divided but HIS Spirit is shared. 'being a separate part of the nature of God?' no a spirit is not a nature – a spirit has a nature, but spirit is the life of that nature. God is a spirit not a nature, not a bunch of spirits that comprise His nature, He is A Spirit. A Being of Spirit, and that Spirit is called the Spirit of Life, Spirit of Truth, Holy Spirit – amongst other things.
The Holy Spirit is God – He is the Holy Spirit Himself.
You will find the Holy Spirit is personalized in Jesus' words concerning the comforter -The Holy Spirit is a He not an it.
As far as the lifestream expressed in a son: this is the life of God in a son to express God's eternal life in that son.
Hi Malcolm,
You continue you use the nonbiblical word
“lifestream”
Why is it necessary to divide the word of truth using a word that is not in the bible?
Is that not a nonsequitor?Well I use the word Lifestream to strengthen the biblical term 'son'
It would not be necessary to use such qualifiers as lifesource and lifestream
One could simply say Father and Son and the same truth applies.
Actually I prefer the terms Father and Son as they are biblical.
Unfortunately as you are aware there are those who see these words Father and Son as indicative of titles only and not real relationships involving a real father and real son(s).
It would be nice to be able to say God and have everyone know what is meant too.
Perhaps one day this will be the case, but for now when one says God, there are many concepts that are held as to what the word means – and thus – further delineation becomes necessary.Quote (kenrch @ May 30 2006,00:20) Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 29 2006,05:25) Hi Kenrch What do you mean?
That Jesus in the capacity of Son of Man could judge sin?
What are you asking here?
God IN Christ remember. Jn 5:19
Oh Ok, I just remembered that scriptures do say that Jesus forgave sinMat 9:2 And behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, be of good cheer; thy sins are forgiven.
Mat 9:5 For which is easier, to say, Thy sins are forgiven; or to say, Arise, and walk?
Luk 5:20 And seeing their faith, he said, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
But you are right Jesus had the fullness of the Holy Spirit so the Father could do mighty works. Jesus is the Word and speaks for the Father.
That brings a question to mind. If we BELIEVE that our sins are forgiven then we like Jesus have no sin. We have a clean new spirit. Do you think we let Satan put the guilt trip on us and as a result we greive the Holy Spirit? And PERHAPS limit the work of the Spirit through us?
Hi KenrchQuote That brings a question to mind. If we BELIEVE that our sins are forgiven then we like Jesus have no sin. We have a clean new spirit. Do you think we let Satan put the guilt trip on us and as a result we greive the Holy Spirit? And PERHAPS limit the work of the Spirit through us? I would say undoubtedly this is the case
Quote (malcolm ferris @ May 30 2006,00:00) . The holy spirit is God, not a part of His being, He is Spirit as you say.
If God is Spirit and that spirit is only personalized in His creation – but is not definable in a person of Himself – then how is He a person – He is no more than a concept.
How does God being the Holy Spirit conflict with God being the Spirit of Life? It does not, the natural example of a human father and son shows us that: the father is the source of life (human life in this case – the spirit of man) the son is a part of that lifestream of the father (his life expressed in the son through the genes) The son has the life of his father in him, yet he is not his father. So that is a father and a son.Yes He is the person of Life, and has life IN Him. Who says anything about His Spirit being 'given away' – or forfeited ? If I have a son, I am no less me, I am no more me, I do not lose any of my own life…
'being a separate part of the nature of God?' no a spirit is not a nature – a spirit has a nature, but spirit is the life of that nature. God is a spirit not a nature, not a bunch of spirits that comprise His nature, He is A Spirit. A Being of Spirit, and that Spirit is called the Spirit of Life, Spirit of Truth, Holy Spirit – amongst other things.
The Holy Spirit is God – He is the Holy Spirit Himself.
You will find the Holy Spirit is personalized in Jesus' words concerning the comforter -The Holy Spirit is a He not an it.
As far as the lifestream expressed in a son: this is the life of God in a son to express God's eternal life in that son.
Hi Malcolm,
But God is not personalised only in His creation. The bible is full of the Father being personalised in heaven. Jesus spoke constantly of the nature of his heavenly Father.God's Spirit permeates His creation but He IS in Heaven as a person. His arms and His finger do His work outside heaven. And that treasure is of God and must be respected as of God.
Hi Nick
Quote But God is not personalised only in His creation. Heaven is my throne and earth is my footstool is this what you mean?
Quote His arms and His finger do His work outside heaven. What about His tabernacle? I am not disagreeing with you, God must work through some channel, some form in order to even be visible and therefore known both to and by creation.
The place we refer to as Heaven – is also a domain fully of God's creation – angels.
He is personalised in His creation – you are correct. Both in Heaven and on earth.Hi Malcolm,
Do you not see God having a separate personification outside of His creation?
Do you think He became absorbed into his creation?
I think His nature is as a Spirit being that has the ability to be given out from Himself into and among all His creation, but all that does not compare with the extraordinariness of His massivity and glory.[I must admit I do not know if any words exist to even contemplate God}Hi Nick
Quote Do you not see God having a separate personification outside of His creation? What gives you that impression? Of course he has a personification as Father – He is a person a being, not an impersonal lifeforce. He is a person like any father, and has life in Him as any father has.
Quote Do you think He became absorbed into his creation? You mean all that was in God, He poured into Christ, all that was in Christ, He poured into the Church? Nah, I don't go for that.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2006,08:08) Hi Malcolm,
Has God ever left, or will God, ever leave heaven?
I would put it this way Nick – heaven and earth met and embraced when the Dove descended upon the Lamb. The dove being a symbol of a heavenly creature, one that is at home in the heavens, and the lamb being symbolic of an earthly creature. The nature of the Lamb and the Dove being compatible so that the Spirit not only descended upon Him as in times past in prophets but remained upon Him.
What happened when a prophet under the anointing of God spoke in times past? The people heard the voice of one from another place – the One from Heaven.
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