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Hi kenrch,
The point is “only begotten”is a very rough translation.What you can know is that where is appears about the Son of God it;
Has nothing to do with his physical birth
Does not mean he is the only Son
Relates to his begetting directly and solely from God
Shows his uniqueness among the sons of God.Hi t8,
Hope you are well. You wrote:Quote John 1:1c doesn't teach that Jesus is God himself as you teach
Check the capitalisation of the predicate noun in John 1:1c in the NIV you most frequently quote, is it upper or lower case? Check all the legitimate English versions, translated by committees of hundreds of kione Greek scholars, do they likewise capitalise the Theos is clause 1c?t8, given that:
1. All eighteen translations available on BGW and 11 translations on BLB all use the upper case “G” in John 1:1c, and
2. All reputable Greek lexicon scholars and other expositors agree that the above versions have correctly rendered John 1:1c from kione Greek into English, and
3. Colwell's Rule dictates that the predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb, and lacks it when it precedes it, and
4. Its easy to find clear examples in John, and elsewhere in the NT, where the use of anarthrous nouns (Theos) are used in reference to the Father, and
5. Linguistically, John could not have used an article without forcing a fully-reversible statement, thereby affirming a Modalistic concept of Theos, and
6. God MEANS God!!
Then the burden of proof rests firmly on you to prove that “a god” is the correct rendering of John 1:1c. So far I have not seen any objection from you that remotely challenges the points I've made in my posts on John 1:1
Quote and it teaches that he was WITH God in John 1:1b
Yes t8, I do not believe that Jesus is His own Father, if that's your point. I have never written anything that would imply this. Please don't build this 'straw man' argument only to knock it down, and then think you've given a legitimate refutation of the Deity of Christ. God WITH God is actually not that unusual Biblically, carefully read Psalm 45:6-7 (cf. Hebrews 1:8), Genesis 19:24, Isaiah 48:16, Zechariah 2:8 and Hosea 1:7.Take care and God bless.
PS, sorry for being overly-combative at times over the last week or so, some of my comments were….well….uncalled for, your posts are a red rag to a bull, so to speak. I will try to tone it down in any future exchange we may have.Hi Is 1.18
Ps 45 6-7 and Heb 1.8f
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of joy above your fellows”Rev 22.1f
” And he showed me a river of the water of life, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of the street”So the Son of God is a god. He has proven his faithfulness and has a heavenly throne under his God to judge and rule all creation. He is not our God who is his God. He is with that God.
Your argument is that Jesus Christ is YHWH. This is patently untrue from this very verse you quote. You claim God is a trinity of three parts. Two beings are shown and not one or three here. There is no throne for the Holy Spirit shown.
One, the Son, is subservient and not equal to the Other who is his Father and his God. There is no sign of a trinity expressed here in fact it is excluded. Where is the deity shown of the equal Holy Spirit that your doctrine must also demand?
So how can you stand on two stools by saying Jesus is part of a trinity and Jesus is a deity in his own right. Can you not see that the positions are mutually exclusive?
How can you claim they are both part of a trinity God when two are shown in the very verse you quote and not three or one? Why do you not read the very scriptures you use to support your arguments? No amount of mysterious trinity-speak can cover these glaring holes in your doctrines.
Many people claim that the Holy Spirit is a person because attributes are given to it that can only be used to denote personality. I would like to challenge that notion and prove from scripture that this kind of thinking is not infallible, and that perhaps too much is being read into the text based on preconceived notions. Notice thes examples from scripture:
And some of the Pharisees called to Him from the crowd, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.” But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” (Luke 19:39-40)
Here Jesus says that “stones would cry out”. Are these stones persons?
For you shall go out with joy, And be led out with peace; The mountains and the hills Shall break forth into singing before you, And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. (Isa. 55:12)
The mountains and hills will sing and the trees will clap their hands. Trees clap and have hands. Are these trees and mountains persons?
Wisdom has built her house,She has hewn out her seven pillars; (Prov. (9:1)
Wisdom builds a house. Is wisdom an actual person. Wisdom is actualized in Christ, but this text was written before Jesus came in the flesh, and the context of the passage is speaking of wisdom itself. My question is though is wisdom an actual person?
My point is if the Holy Spirit is a person because certain attributes are spoken of being possed by it. Then rocks, trees, mountains, etc must be persons too. If they are not then what rule of interpretation and exegesis is used to determine what’s a person and what’s not?
Hi Sultan
A person?
Don't try make God in your image,
He made us in His true but He made us of flesh.
Romans 1
When they knew God, they glorified him Not As God, neither were thankful; but became Vain in their Imaginations,
and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
And changed the glory of God
into an image made like man,
and an images like birds, or four footed beasts, or creeping things.Try looking in the spirit realm
John 4
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him
must worship him in spirit and in truth.John 14
I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter,
that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive,
because it see him not, neither knows of him:
but ye know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance,
whatsoever I have said unto you.
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.John 16
However when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.Just something to think on
Peace to you and yours
TJQuote (TJStarfire @ Mar. 02 2006,23:47) Hi Sultan A person?
Don't try make God in your image,
He made us in His true but He made us of flesh.
Romans 1
When they knew God, they glorified him Not As God, neither were thankful; but became Vain in their Imaginations,
and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
And changed the glory of God
into an image made like man,
and an images like birds, or four footed beasts, or creeping things.Try looking in the spirit realm
John 4
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him
must worship him in spirit and in truth.John 14
I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter,
that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive,
because it see him not, neither knows of him:
but ye know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance,
whatsoever I have said unto you.
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.John 16
However when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.Just something to think on
Peace to you and yours
TJ
It's obvious you didn't read my post. How am I making God in my image? Please read the entire post before replying.http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-holy-spirit.htm
The holy spirit is a personQuote It's obvious you didn't read my post. How am I making God in my image? Please read the entire post before replying.
I did read your post,
I was only questioning the use of the term “person”.
That term is most often used to denote individual human beings
and I greatly doubt that the race of beings known to us as
the Host of Heaven are Human.Personally I would use the term individual entities,
Not of flesh but of ethereal energy or Spirits.
But Yes I believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy ghost are separate spirits.I don’t think however that rocks or mountains are thinking individuals
but rather manifestations of separate energy flows which the Lord of the Spirits,
and some of His minions, understand and can control.
In fact I believe that learning to control those subtle
flows of energy is the purpose that holds that society together.When the writers of those verses said that the rocks would cry out,
mountains would sing and wisdom would build her house, I believe that they were attempting
to relate to the people that those flows of energy would be altered in ways that the
manipulators could read and understand.Peace is the Ememy of anger,
Let all the peoples choose peaceTJ
Quote (liljon @ Mar. 03 2006,10:53) http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-holy-spirit.htm
The holy spirit is a person
You did not address my thread in entirety. The question is are the rocks, mountains and trees persons, and what interpretive and excegetical processes are used to determine what is a person and what is not. Your answer was simply the Holy Spirit is a person because you or theologians say so, but by what authority do you base your claims. You say by the scriptures, well I gave you several scriptures about objects that posess personal attributes. Mu point is just because the scriptures use anthropomorphisms (human parts) and anthropopathesims (human emotions) to describe spiritual truths it does not make those spiritual beings (Yahweh, Holy Spirit) persons.Quote (TJStarfire @ Mar. 03 2006,12:26) Quote It's obvious you didn't read my post. How am I making God in my image? Please read the entire post before replying.
I did read your post,
I was only questioning the use of the term “person”.
That term is most often used to denote individual human beings
and I greatly doubt that the race of beings known to us as
the Host of Heaven are Human.Personally I would use the term individual entities,
Not of flesh but of ethereal energy or Spirits.
But Yes I believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy ghost are separate spirits.I don’t think however that rocks or mountains are thinking individuals
but rather manifestations of separate energy flows which the Lord of the Spirits,
and some of His minions, understand and can control.
In fact I believe that learning to control those subtle
flows of energy is the purpose that holds that society together.When the writers of those verses said that the rocks would cry out,
mountains would sing and wisdom would build her house, I believe that they were attempting
to relate to the people that those flows of energy would be altered in ways that the
manipulators could read and understand.Peace is the Ememy of anger,
Let all the peoples choose peaceTJ
TJ,
Have you heard of the Trinity doctrine? In that doctrine the Holy Spirit is refered to as a person. I have posted this thread to start a dicussion that will help clarify from scripture (not just opinion) how that conclusion is reached. Thank you for your participation, I just want to bring you up to speed. I hope my explanation here helps.Good Stuff Sultan,
The Bible doesn't teach the Holy Spirit to be a seperate “person”.
Most of us know that there is only One God. Dueteronomy 6:4,John 17:3, I corinthians 8:6
Let's look at the 10 Commandments. The 4th commandment says that, “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain”. Exodus 20:7, Dueteronomy 5:11. (NKJV)
Now look at Matthew 12:32, Jesus said,”Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him;but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him either in this age or in the age to come. (NKJV)
I Corinthians 2:10 says, ” But God as revealed them(referring to the things which God has prepared for those who love him)to us through his Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. (NKJV)
Also look at Acts 5:3, Peter confronts Ananias about lying to the Holy Spirit, in the next verse he says that Ananias didn't lie to men but to God.(NKJV)
Is the Holy Spirit a 3rd person? I don't think so
Quote Have you heard of the Trinity doctrine? Sure I have heard of that theory.
But I haven't seen any actual references that would suggest that it is true.
Most of what I have seen is just arguments over the use or meaning of a word.
However, the overall theory does not support that assumption.Throughout all of what are called inspired writings we find that Name labels for the beings in heaven
are tied to actions being performed, so it would appear that in their society
individuals are known by titles more than by specific names.
No matter how many pieces of himself God gives out to his creations each of us
are referred to as individuals as well as a part of the whole.In reality though trying to figure out who is what, or which, when,
single, plural, or multi-headed is really superfluous, is it not?When looking at theological theories an individual need only look at what the
theory teaches about interactions with the other inhabitants of their world
and then ask themselves if that is how they want others to interact with them.I don’t follow the path of peace because God says I’m to be thrown into
a lake of fire if I follow the path of violence and I don’t follow the teachings
of Jesus because he says I will be rewarded in Heaven.I turn my back on violence and follow the ways of peace because it is the right thing to do.
The ways of God, Christ, the Comforter, The Holy Spirit, or Heaven is the only
theory I know of that if followed could lead to peace on this planet.How are the Father and Son made one?
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
HOW ARE THEY ONE?
?Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 04 2006,02:38) What is the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit.
N-E-X-T
Amen KenrchQuote (Woutlaw @ Mar. 04 2006,00:09) Good Stuff Sultan, The Bible doesn't teach the Holy Spirit to be a seperate “person”.
Most of us know that there is only One God. Dueteronomy 6:4,John 17:3, I corinthians 8:6
Let's look at the 10 Commandments. The 4th commandment says that, “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain”. Exodus 20:7, Dueteronomy 5:11. (NKJV)
Now look at Matthew 12:32, Jesus said,”Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him;but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him either in this age or in the age to come. (NKJV)
I Corinthians 2:10 says, ” But God as revealed them(referring to the things which God has prepared for those who love him)to us through his Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. (NKJV)
Also look at Acts 5:3, Peter confronts Ananias about lying to the Holy Spirit, in the next verse he says that Ananias didn't lie to men but to God.(NKJV)
Is the Holy Spirit a 3rd person? I don't think so
I totally agree, Woutlaw.Trinitarians would often say that in the case of Ananias lying to the Spirit and being told he lied to God, that verifies that the Spirit is the “3rd equal person of the triune God.” Except reading further down the chapter, Peter makes it clear that the God he refers to is none other than the Father, and him only.
ACTS 5:28-32
28 saying, “Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!”
29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”There is only one God being spoken of here, the God of their fathers who raised up Jesus, who also exalted Jesus, who gives the holy spirit to those who obey HIM. Obeying him I might add to save someone time, includes obeying his prophets and son.
Quote (liljon @ Mar. 03 2006,15:53) http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-holy-spirit.htm
The holy spirit is a personHi liljon:
If so, why hasn't anyone in scripture to my knowledge ever spoken to the Spirit? Why do they speak rather to the Father in acknowledgment of what the spirit says?
Psalm 51:10-12
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.Was God to create a 2nd or 3rd person in David by renewing a steadfast spirit within him? Does this in fact not say that David wanted God to restore him to the place of steadfastness he once knew? Was there ever more than one persons comprising of King David?
When David says to God, “your presence, your holy spirit, your salvation, your generous spirit” are these to be understood as distinct persons and personalities comprising of one God? I think not.
Lastly, where have we heard of the holy spirit make an “I am” declaration to assert that he/it is a personality outside of the personality of YHWH? Or expressed a will outside of the will of YHWH?
Hi Cubes
Quote Why do they speak rather to the Father in acknowledgment of what the spirit says? It was custom there in those days the refer to any older men of wisdom as Father.
It was a sign of respectQuote (TJStarfire @ Mar. 04 2006,17:58) Hi Cubes Quote Why do they speak rather to the Father in acknowledgment of what the spirit says? It was custom there in those days the refer to any older men of wisdom as Father.
It was a sign of respect
Hi TJ,I think I need to clarify myself a bit better:
What I mean is that, when God wanted to speak to the men and women in scripture…. he either sent an angel or did it by his spirit.
On the the other hand, we do not see men in turn speaking to the spirit. They speak to God or to the Son.
Please read Acts 8 when you have time.
An angel of God speaks to Philip.(v26)
The spirit/Spirit speaks to Philip. (v29)
The spirit/Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away (v39)Also note that “he makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flaming fire.”
Either way, it is YHWH's will that is being carried out by his means and there is no 2nd or 3rd person with equal God-status or triune being here.
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