The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

[NickHassan]

Hi ED,
Men exalt their limited vision.
But they see very little with the eyes and understand almost nothing with their minds.

[NickHassan]

Hi ED,
The Finger of God helps men worship God so is of God.[LK11,Rom8]

[NickHassan]

Hi ED,
As the Spirit is of God we must not lie to or blaspheme the Spirit as to do so is to do the same to God.[Acts5]
This treasure abides in cleansed vessels as a downpayment on their salvation[2Cor4, eph 1.14]

[NickHassan]

Hi ED,
The Spirit of Christ in us calls ABBA to our Father.[Rom8, Gal4]

[Ed J]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2010,07:34)

Hi ED, Men exalt their limited vision. But they see very little with the eyes and understand almost nothing with their minds.

Hi Nick,

Does this apply to you as well? (Psalm 18:25-27)

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[NickHassan]

Hi ED,
No idea.
But are you grasping how God uses His Spirit?

[JustAskin]

“Disaffected Spirit”. A term that springs to mind.

[NickHassan]

Hi ED,
The will of God is done in heaven but has not been done on earth.
One third of the heavenly angels are to be expelled from heaven to purify it[Rev12]
God wants His footstool back under His will and freed from the squatter's domination of the god of this earth.
The plan began with Abraham and Moses and now God has sent his anointed Son and continued the liberation with all men invited to help this plan.

His Creative and powerful Spirit does all this in creation and will complete it with the victors sharing the spoils.

[Lightenup]

Hi Davidbfun,
Tell me why the Holy Spirit is not listed in these verses if the Holy Spirit is indeed equally a separate person as the Son and the Father.

There is no need to explain gender at this point. I don't even believe that the Holy Spirit is equally a separate person. I believe that the Bible has taught us that the spirit of man is the inner person of man. Therefore I tend to think that the Spirit of God is the inner person of God which uniquely flows from God to wherever God sends it/him.

Matt 24:36
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
NASU

John 5:23
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
NASU

John 5:26
26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
NASU

John 6:40
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
NASU

John 6:46
46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
NASU

1 John 2:23-24
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
NASU

2 John 3
3 Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
NASU

2 John 9
9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
NASU

Matthew 11:27 NASB

27″All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Especially note that verse Matt 11:27. The Holy Spirit doesn't know the Son or the Father if indeed the Spirit is a separate person as you say.

[JustAskin]

LU,

I Totally agree with you here.

DavidBFun… please take note.

If you are here to learn
then learn
if not then try not to BURN!

[Lightenup]

Good, JA, it's always nice to find agreement.

[JustAskin]

LU,Like i say always, JustAskin agrees with TRUTH, whereever Truth is spoken or written but JustAskin is also wary from whom Truth come in case the Angel of Light has a hand in it being effected.

Many have been drawn into believing the “PERSON” because the person spoke a truth and were later led away into believing everything else that that person said , either through unwarranted LOYALTY or in the hope that that one would speak another Truth. Test the Spirit always…!

[shimmer]

You have to know the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit knows us; we do not need to understand it. “Now this is eternal life that they may know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

I never thought of it till I read here, now I have to stop, It's a trap, I was reading and I was led to think maybe the Spirit is Wisdom then maybe something else—- but now I know, some things you do not need to know.  To assume the wrong thing takes you farther and farther away,

[shimmer]

All you need to know of the Holy Spirit is what you feel and that is what it is, the comforter, to know what it can do through you also, to know that what is Holy cant be with Sin, these are all things you need to know, not anything else, if it's in you why the need to search 'without you' for answers?

[shimmer]

The Holy Spirit leads you into all truth,

[Lightenup]

Quote (shimmer @ July 23 2010,05:03)

You have to know the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit knows us; we do not need to understand it. “Now this is eternal life that they may know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” I never thought of it till I read here, now I have to stop, It's a trap, I was reading and I was led to think maybe the Spirit is Wisdom then maybe something else—- but now I know, some things you do not need to know.  To assume the wrong thing takes you farther and farther away,

Shimmer,
Welcome to HN. It sounds like you have been around for a while reading our posts on here. It also sounds like you don't like it here. I was wondering why you joined?

Many of us are motivated to gain further understanding in truth and the questions asked of us cause some of us to seek God about things we want further clarification on. Further understanding in truth is a GOOD thing. That helps us know the counterfeit quicker.

God wants us to seek Him and to know Him more fully. We do have to be wise about it and not let ourselves be swept away by the next big idea. Test everything you read and bring it before the Lord.

I hope you start realizing that HN can challenge you to find truth and that you grow more deeply in love with the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit in the process.

We are all trying to find more truth and to discern the truth from error and in the midst of it, learn to love others with different persuasions.

God bless your time here,
Kathi/Lightenup/LU

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 22 2010,23:19)

Hi Davidbfun, Tell me why the Holy Spirit is not listed in these verses if the Holy Spirit is indeed equally a separate person as the Son and the Father. There is no need to explain gender at this point.  I don't even believe that the Holy Spirit is equally a separate person.  I believe that the Bible has taught us that the spirit of man is the inner person of man.  Therefore I tend to think that the Spirit of God is the inner person of God which uniquely flows from God to wherever God sends it/him. Matt 24:36 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. NASU John 5:23 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. NASU John 5:26 26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; NASU John 6:40 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” NASU John 6:46 46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. NASU 1 John 2:23-24 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. NASU 2 John 3 3 Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. NASU 2 John 9 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. NASU Matthew 11:27 NASB 27″All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Especially note that verse Matt 11:27.  The Holy Spirit doesn't know the Son or the Father if indeed the Spirit is a separate person as you say.

Bumped for Davidbfun (just in case you weren't aware).

[davidbfun]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 23 2010,23:19)

Hi Davidbfun, Tell me why the Holy Spirit is not listed in these verses if the Holy Spirit is indeed equally a separate person as the Son and the Father. There is no need to explain gender at this point.  I don't even believe that the Holy Spirit is equally a separate person.  I believe that the Bible has taught us that the spirit of man is the inner person of man.  Therefore I tend to think that the Spirit of God is the inner person of God which uniquely flows from God to wherever God sends it/him. Matt 24:36 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. NASU John 5:23 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. NASU John 5:26 26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; NASU John 6:40 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” NASU John 6:46 46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. NASU 1 John 2:23-24 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. NASU 2 John 3 3 Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. NASU 2 John 9 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. NASU Matthew 11:27 NASB 27″All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Especially note that verse Matt 11:27.  The Holy Spirit doesn't know the Son or the Father if indeed the Spirit is a separate person as you say.

Hi LU,

I will answer one thing at a time.  The absence of something does not negate the existence. (“Why the HS is not listed in these verses…”)

I could take the quotes about the HS and ask why God isn't mentioned….does that mean that God doesn't exist?

If you don't believe the HS is a separate person, what is it?

Your belief:

Spirit = inner man

Extrapolated:  

Spirit = inner God

Jesus died and said, “unto your hands, Father I commit my spirit”.  Body into tomb, spirit into Heaven.

QUESTIONS:

1-Does the Father have a Body? Is the “Body” God?
2-Does the Father have a Spirit? Is the “Spirit” God?
3-Is the Spirit separate or a part of the Father, inside of the Body?
4-Is the Spirit outside of the Body?
5-Who is God?
6-What are God's traits? Omnipotent? Omnipresent? Perpetual (Always existing)? Omnscient? Has beginning? Has an end? Has mother/father?
7-What do you call “Body”?
8-What do you call “Spirit”?

Extra credit: (Not necessary here, just for your own edification.)

How do you define God? And each essence of Him? Not characteristics (kind, loving, jealous,etc)….or actions (creation, fathering, etc)
 
Without definitions how do we discuss anything logically?

Once there is an understanding I could then address the Bible verses in depth.  Without an understanding it is just opinions.

I tried to define God and give meaning to God in a thread called God vs God, but no one wanted to listen or think.  

Bible says that God is spirit.
Bible says that God has a body.

How do YOU reconcile these two concepts?

I gave a lengthy response in “The son begotten when” Thread that might help in your other questions.

I “think” that I could debate anyone's concept of God with short questions to nullify that belief; if I knew their basis (definitions) or terms for their beliefs.

I don't think anyone could do the same for mine.

For example, those that believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is “God, the son” couldn't answer these first questions…1-Is Jesus the son of God? 2-Is Jesus, God, the son?  The first question proves that he is not God because it says he came from God and is His son.  The second says that he is God and therefore is not a son. He cannot be BOTH.  God & son. Without even opening the Bible.

The same could be done with your God, what is it?

The problem:

No one wants to make a “concrete” definition of their God, and how YHVH and Holy Spirit fit into their definitiion.  While talking they leap back and forth like Jesus is FULLY GOD and the FULLY MAN for trinitarians.

Those questions above are what I need to understand which God the person believes in….and IF their Holy Spirit is a separate person or……

How many “Gods” are there?  I'll tell you when I get the responses.

Lovingly,

David

PS In order to answer all of your Bible quotes we need to define “God”.

[Lightenup]

Thanks David,
I will consider your questions and present you with thoughtful answers hopefully soon.

[davidbfun]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,22:37)

Trinitarians believe that the Holy Spirit is a separate “being” of the triune God.  I suggest this was not the message of scriptures.  It is never mentioned of the Spirit as being the “third person of the trinity” anywhere in scriptures.   As Michael L. Brown says in Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus,” p. 53: Quote …Is the “Spirit of God” the same as “God”? Yes and no.  The Spirit clearly has personality, since the Holy Spirit instructs the people of Israel and can be grieved or angered. Yet the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God-i.e., God's very Spirit, he is both giving himself as well as giving of himself.  The key is always this: God touches us, teaches us, interacts with us, and empowers us by his Spirit. With that understanding it is very easy to understand why the “Holy Spirit” is not mentioned along with the Father in these following verses since references speaking of the person of the Father would assume that the innermost part of the Father to obviously be included in His person. See below and you will find plenty of scriptures that you would think would mention all “three persons” of the trinity but doesn't: Matt 24:36 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. NASU John 5:23 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. NASU John 5:26 26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; NASU John 6:40 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” NASU John 6:46 46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. NASU 1 John 2:23-24 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. NASU 2 John 3 3 Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. NASU 2 John 9 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. NASU Peace and love, Kathi

Hi Kathi (LU),

Just a quick look at one of your verses:

John 6:46
46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

If God is spirit how has Jesus seen Him?  I assume that the Father is God…otherwise God in this verse is someone other than the Father. But if God is spirit and invisible how do we know that God is a Father (male)?

Eternal Life is an intrinsic part of Jesus and not something “extra”.  If we receive Jesus we HAVE E.L. automatically (and the life is IN us).

You are right, the Bible never mentioned the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Trinity…as there isn't a Trinity Godhead.

HS is mentioned specifically by NAME (“personal” noun) in over 100 passages.
Compare that to over 6500 times that YHVH is mentioned;
2300 + for Elohim (God); 200 + for God (El)

HS in IN Christ so if you receive Christ you receive the HS; don't need to mention HS twice in the verses.

That was the “mystery” hidden to the Gentiles. (Col 1:27) (Christ in us!)

Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”

HS, separate “person” IN Christ….God speaking.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?

HS must be a person because Ananias lied to Him.  

How is Jesus and the Father “one”?  Thru the HS. Otherwise Jesus is the Father (which is absurd). How are we “one” with the Father? One with the son? And one with the Father and son?  Holy Spirit!

And if the HS isn't a separate person then it is a tool or force or power from YHVH (God)….and isn't God.

Kathi I hope this addresses your concerns.

Grace, mercy and peace be to you,

David

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