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Quote (stroshow @ Mar. 27 2005,16:54) Nick, thats fine if you think that.. But my point is how could the Holy spirit be gods spirit, send people,forbid people, speak on its own? To me that sounds like a person… Are u just dismissing those Scriptures?
There is a scripture that says that “the Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom”. We also know from other scriptures that God is Spirit. So are there 2 Spirits?Ephesians 4:4-6 says that there is one Spirit.
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.If so then the Spirit is God.
So it could be that God is Spirit. (what.)
That God is the Father. (who).Just like
I am man (what).
I am t8 (who).Just my thoughts. What do others think?
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Luke 3:21-22 [21] When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened [22] and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever
Those are a few that show them separate
Hi SS,
There is a forum on Matt 28.19.The Father lives in heaven. He sends His own Spirit to do His work on earth. That is what happened when Jesus was baptised in water and in the Spirit.
Quote (stroshow @ Mar. 27 2005,00:34) Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit Luke 3:21-22 [21] When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened [22] and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever
Those are a few that show them separate
Matt 28:19 does show them separate but the others don't except another one in 1 John 5:7. However, 1 John 5:7 isn't found in early manuscripts. Matt 28:19 must be an alteration of some sort because its contrary to all the other verses on baptism. You will find all the other cases involve being baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and not one being baptized in the manner described in Matt 28:19.The Holy Spirit is the divine character of the Father in Heaven.
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.Just like we impart our own spirits when we have children. They are given a portion of our character in reproduction. I think human reproduction is an example of God's reproductive system.
Paul
What about
2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all?
[What wrote:Yes, that was the exact sentence. OK, now I understand you.
Quote What if the first sentence was posted in part. If so, it could have read as:
I would have thought that it wasJust an idea. Does that look like what happened?
Yes, that was the exact sentence. OK, now I understand you.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2005,07:44) Hi,
Lets look at Acts 20.24f
” But I do not consider my life to be of any account as dear to myself, so that I might finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God.
And now, behold, I know that all of you among whom I went about preaching the kingdom, will no longer see my face. Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God . Be on your guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the CHURCH OF GOD, which he purchased with his own blood.”Was it the blood of God?
Was it the blood of the Spirit of God?
No it was the blood of Jesus, the Son of God.The church of God is the body of Christ and it was his blood that was shed to purchase our salvation.
Hi , I found a footnote that says that in some manuscripts Acts 20.28 reads “the Lord” instead of “God”.Quote (stroshow @ Mar. 27 2005,06:01) What about 2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all?
I would actually find that in agreement with the fact that the Holy Spirit is the divine character. One still must have the Holy Spirit within them to be a member of the Family of God.Paul
Hi SS,
The fellowship of the Holy Spirit is a natural result of the fact that all members of the Body of Christ, baptised into him, share the one Spirit. If they do not have the Spirit of Christ they do not belong to him so that defines the church. What is more natural than the hand fellowshipping with the arm and head?
We belong to one another, we need one another, we depend on one another. It is not just a social group or mutual interest scenario is it?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2005,20:44) If they do not have the Spirit of Christ they do not belong to him so that defines the church.
What do you think the Spirit of Christ is? Is it Jesus' personal spirit?No definitely not Modem Mouth.
He had has own natural spirit because he was not filled with the Spirit of God till his baptism. It is the Spirit of God that empowered him. It is also the Spirit of God that empowers the church.
What is your understanding?
stroshow: It is easy to build an endless amount of false doctrines by using one or two (or even more) verses to 'prove' a point whilst ignoring many other verses which contradict said verses. For example:
Luke:14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and
wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.Now, CLEARLY this verse says that if a man does not hate his whole family, he cannot be a disciple of Christ. How many people have justified hating their family and pretended that they were justified by God? More than I wish was true. Now this may seem to be a foolish example to you, but it isn't. There are many other false doctrines founded on just as flimsy of 'proof' verses. The ETERNAL TORMENT of sinners is one such example; the TRINITY is another.
My wife is Alice. Alice is my wife. Either way, Alice is a PERSON and wife is a THING. If I divorce Alice and get a new wife, Alice is still the same person Alice, but now I have a new thing as wife.
Did you ever notice how there is NEVER any mention of a PERSONAL NAME for THE Holy Spirit and IT is always preceded by a 'THE'? THE Holy Spirit and THE Comforter? Do we say THE Jesus or THE God? No, of course not, not anymore than we say THE stroshow or THE bic. It's because these are PERSONAL NAMES and THE Holy Spirit isn't.
Only in the gospel of John do we see the HS called a 'He'. This is obviously incorrect usage…it should be rendered 'it'. Do a search for every instance where Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost is found. Notice carefully the usage. Look how in many cases it is used in a POSSESSIVE way, such as “the Spirit of God”. Now, you might say the WIFE of bic (a thing, beautiful though she may be) but you would NOT say the ALICE of bic (that same beautiful person).
Don't worry. I know that still you are not convinced. Let's try a little harder.
Love: We read about God's love for His Son and we read about Jesus' love for His Father and we read about both of their loves for us. Show me one scripture that speaks of Jesus or God's love for the Holy Spirit or where the Holy Spirit loves us or God or Jesus. If the Holy Spirit was an equal person of the godhead, 'he' would be equally loved, wouldn't 'he'?
Throne: Jesus has a throne (beside His Father's) and God has a throne. Where is the Holy Spirit's throne? Once again, if it was an equal person in some trinitarian godhead, it too would have a throne, wouldn't it?
Worship: Worship is offered to both God and Jesus but there is not one instance of worship being offered to the Holy Spirit. Have you ever wondered why?
Respect: Read EVERY salutation to the churches in ALL of the letters (epistles) of Paul and a STARTLING observation can be made. In EVERY instance, Paul mentions both Jesus and the Father but NOT ONCE does he mention the Holy Spirit! Now, if Paul knew the HS to be a third PERSON of some triune divinity, would he have so obviously neglected to mention 'his' name? ABSOLUTELY NOT! How could he be so DISRESPECTFUL as to completely IGNORE this “equal” member of the godhead.
Dear brother, after all of this, if you still feel COMPELLED to believe a man-made doctrine foisted upon innocent and devout believers, then I wonder what else I could say. Let me show you some of the epistles…the rest you'll have to read for yourself:
Rom:1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor:1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their’s and
our’s:
1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.2 Cor:1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.Gal:1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,This pattern repeats itself through Ephesians, Phillipians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, and Philemon. Paul DEFINITELY didn't place EQUAL importance to the HS as a DIETY. The only possible reason is because it is a THING and not a PERSON.
Quote I was wondering who you people belive the Holy Spirt is? Is he a person? is he gods spirit? Here are some examples of why i think he is a person. Is it amazing that these very same verses SHOW me that the HS is an IT?
Acts 5:3, 4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Who did they lie to?
God!
Acts 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to
tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have
buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.Who did Ananias & Saphira tempt?
Holy Spirit.
No, once again, it was God.
We can blaspheme against the Spirit.
The RCC says that we can blasheme against the Church (a thing).
The Holy Spirit can talk,.
So can a tape recorder or even a book.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will
send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things
to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.If the HS was a person, why would God send it in Jesus' name and not its own? Notice, too, that just like a voice recorder, he will only echo the things that Jesus had already told them.
John 16:13,14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you
into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he
shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.Notice, once again, like a recorder, doesn't speak its own thoughts but only those of Christ (what it hears). Jesus is glorified and the HS merely relays what Jesus says through it. 'he' should be rendered 'it'.
Galatians 4
God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”Would the Fathers own spirit call out “abba, Father” to Himself? Think it through.
It's not the Father's Spirit that calls out “Abba, Father” it's Jesus' Spirit that does so. Read that again, modem mouth.
Is that enough?
Hi bic.
Some very good points.
But”wife is a thing”
I think I will start up a post on eternal torment as I do not think you have universal agreement there.Bic,
I asked Nick if the Gal 4 verse was referring to Jesus' personal spirit of the Spirit, he said it didn't and that it in fact referred to the Father's Spirit that indwelt Jesus. Perhaps you should read Nick's post more thoroughly before you jump to (wrong) conclusions.Hi Bic,
I assume that you believe the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jesus to be two seperate spirits. Is this true?How then do you explain this verse:
Rom 8
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.If we need both the Fathers and the Sons seperate spirits to seal our salvation why is this not written of in the NT letters? and, how do we recieve the Spirit of Jesus?
Hi MM and bic,
We know from scripture that Jesus grew up like one of us. He was not obviously different from his peers and he had to learn by his maistakes too. He was born with a natural human spirit as he was like to us in all ways but sin. So it was only at his baptism that the Holy Spirit came down on him in Power and he began his ministry.But the Spirit 'of God' became the Spirit 'of Jesus' as well. In that way too Jesus can say “the Father and I are one”. Jesus revealed the Father and the Son to men.
We know that God is Spirit and He can pour out His Spirit on any one at any time. But The Holy Spirit was not poured out on the disciples till he returned to the Father. We are told specifically that it could not happen till he did return. That is so the Spirit of Christ could be poured out in us to unite us in the body of Christ on earth.
I guess that is the same with Elijah and Elisha, and Elijah and John the Baptist.
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