Son of God and son of man

This topic contains 124 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  carmel 1 day, 20 hours ago.

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  • #842462
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 903
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    Hi t8,

    Where did you get the idea that to be greater Jesus needed to be anointed first?

    Just part of your confusion issue?

    More false accusations Nick. My idea that Jesus was born the Christ is actually not my idea. Please read it as clear as day. Jesus was born the Christ and John was not. Jesus was and is greater than John. You say that Jesus was not the Christ and was not greater. You are wrong.

    But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid! For behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people: Today in the City of David a Savior has been born to you. He is Christ the Lord! And this will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger.”…

    Scripture vs Nick, Gene, and Jodi (The Ordinary Jesus Brigade).

    and Scripture wins obviously.

    It’s so easy to win scriptural debates. Just agree with the scripture and do not diverge. Also, do not get angry when they falsely accuse you. In fact blessed am I when people do that. And when you quote scripture and they say you are wrong, you know in your heart they are opposing the scripture and teaching falsely.

    #842463
     t8 
    Participant
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    • Total replies 18,820

    Hi T8,

    Still getting confused about the abilities of the prophetic Spirit?

    This is a perfect example as to why you are wrong Nick because you falsely accuse nearly every day now don’t you?

    Shall we call you Naughty Nick?

     

    #842473
     carmel 
    Participant
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    couldn’t really take in what you last said, it would be very helpful if you gave scriptures and then speak, or speak and then give the scriptures.

    Jody,

    Can you be more specific, in relation to the above?

     

    John spoke of Jesus knowing he was the promised Messiah the son of David, not that he was a pre-existing son, or a god

    John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

     

    Jody,  the above is a clear reference to Jesus, as “THE WORD” the Son of Man/Son of God TO BE. AS A SPIRIT by which God created ALL. Now the first creature, was the VERY BEGINNING LUCIFER. The fact that John in the above said :

    in the beginning was “THE WORD”, more specifically clear  it should be understood:

    IN LUCIFER WAS THE WORD. Thus Lucifer was the carrier of God hidden in “THE WORD” JESUS TO BE, THE LIFE SOURCE OF ALL, IN THIS CASE

    THE LIFE SOURCE OF LUCIFER.  THROUGH LUCIFER GOD IN “THE WORD”  CREATED ALL CREATURES IN RELATION TO THE

    LIGHT, WISDOM. The fact that as soon as Lucifer rebelled, all light in the entire existence went out and DARKNESS ruled from then on, the fact that God afterword created the sun, the moon and the stars. as the unique source of light.

    Now you said :

    not that he was a pre-existing son, or a god.

    If John in the very first verse was clear and declared that

    In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD is definitely Jesus, TO BE. THE SON OF GOD/SON OF MAN, TO BE, IN WHOM GOD ABIDED ETERNALLY,  HENCE GOD, DECLARED BY JESUS HIMSELF  WHEN HE SAID.

    I AM IN THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER IS IN ME, how did you conclude that Jesus was not a pre-existing son, or a god

     

    Peace and love in Christ Jesus

    #842474
     NickHassan 
    Participant
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    Hi Carmel,

    The word LUCIFER only occurs once in the bible.

    How can you draw these fanciful conclusions if the word itself has no witnesses? 2 Cor 13.1

    #842475
     NickHassan 
    Participant
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    Hi Carmel,

    You say that the WORD is definitely Jesus.

     

    Jesus was conceived and born of Mary yet you say he was in the beginning with God.

    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.Heb 13.8

    Perhaps you mean the anointing is the Word.

    #842476
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 16,604

    Carmel…..question?, is your word different then you, are you and your words one and the same? God the Fathers word is God the Father himself. Jesus plainly said the word he was telling us was not his words, but the words of him who sent him.

    Not to mention God said in Isaiah the he created the world and spread out the earth and everything in it alone and by himself.

    Carmel what do you do with those scriptures. If you want when i get back from lake Tahoe i can give the exact acriptures .

    Peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    #842486
     NickHassan 
    Participant
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    Hi Gene,

    You are not your Word.

    Your word is an expression of you.

    #842490
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 10
    • Total replies 1,544

    Hi Carmel and All,

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
    Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
    biblical facts,
    God promised eternal life before the world began, a promise is your WORD, not only is God’s word eternal life, but God Himself is eternal life, He is eternal life and He is able to give eternal life.  He had another promise which is held in His WORD OF eternal life, that was also spoken before the world began, such is the seed of David who God would make perfect and thus become the author of eternal salvation.
    Isaiah 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. 4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. 5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee. 6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. 12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. 13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.
    God spoke a PROMISE He would set a person OF ISRAEL to be a leader a commander over the people, a witness to the people.
    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    People beheld the glory of Jesus AFTER the Spirit had descended like a dove on him. According to Acts this was the BEGINNING of the GOSPEL. According to Jesus this was the beginning of the gospel when he was sent out into the world to preach and heal.  He was a witness to the people that God’s WORD is true, God spoke before He made the world and His WORD was manifested in the anointed flesh of David’s son, God’s word became true/fulfilled in the flesh of Jesus upon his anointing at his baptism. According to Isaiah , JESUS WOULD COME FROM A HUMAN SEED, NOT DOWN FROM heaven already existing. 
    Not only was God’s word made true in the anointing of Jesus at the Jordan, God’s word became true when  Jesus was sent out speaking the gospel of God, even further God’s word was fulfilled when Jesus went to the cross, having been perfected and becoming the author of eternal salvation. IN HIM is LIFE, “HIM” is JESUS of Nazareth, not a non flesh “being”, but the seed of David anointed with the fullness of God’s Spirit and power who was made perfect through learning obedience going to the cross.
    Jesus will continue fulfilling God’s word, the Son of Man, the root and offspring of David, is returning to earth to COMPLETE God’s word that was spoken before time began. All things God created, He did so through His own speech, and also in His word was the end to sin and a new beginning of righteous man, that He declared before He created the first heaven and earth.
    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    word by is dia, meaning through, by reason of.
    We have LIFE through a perfected man, “in HIM”, the “HIM” here is the human born of a woman born under the law named Jesus from Nazareth, who became the perfected man.  When God spoke creation into existing He spoke creation into existence through and for the perfected man Jesus of the seed of Abraham and David. He made it through and for JESUS THE CHRIST, the verse is not saying that God made the world by having a non flesh person create the world for Him, and this non flesh person gives us life through him becoming a human. 
    PEOPLE, STOP taking scriptures that are speaking directly about Jesus of Nazareth who according to scripture became the anointed, who CAME of the seed of David, who fulfilled God’s word that was spoken before time began and then was spoken to the prophets, and changing “him” into a being that came from NON FLESH. Such does not make sense given scripture, it is a flat out lie. Your NOT LISTENING to God’s WORD, you are ignoring it. You are not listening to God’s promises and acknowledging His fulfillment of them through Jesus of Nazareth the seed of David promised to come. God never promises to send Himself, God never promises to send an already existing son and make him into a human.   You do not even comprehend the purpose of prophecy, it is so that we know that God is true, we can prove it. Isaiah spoke it and the Jesus the Son of Man fulfilled it exactly according to what God had said beforehand. Those who believe in pre-existence just ignore this as prophecy does not matter, but a doctrine of Christian tradition developed by pagans is above the word of God written by the prophets. 
    God promises to make David’s son into His own Son, and He also promises to make David’s son into His firstborn Son, not only do we have these CLEAR BIBLICAL FACTS directly written in Scripture we also have Jesus himself saying that he will return as the Son of Man, and we have Jesus declaring after he was raised from the dead him saying that he IS the root and offspring of David. 
    In John 1 the people beheld the GLORY of CHRIST, the man who had just been anointed at the river, they witnessed a man who had God in him. This glory was in God’s word in the beginning. Isaiah says that God would not give His glory to any other, it was a glory God had promised a man before He created the world, a man called to righteousness through an anointing (Christos) and who BECAME PERFECTED, who was not worthy of death, so God raised this man back to LIFE and made this man the firstborn of the dead of many brethren to come.
    You pre-existing folks just don’t get it. The scriptures don’t sink in, you don’t read the bible and have the book and the chapters connect as one message.
    Jesus asked God, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” If your a pre-existing believer wouldn’t Jesus have asked God to give him back the glory that he had just prior to becoming a human?
    John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said,Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 
    The Son here is David’s son that God said He would be a Father to. God declared Jesus as His Son upon his baptism when the Spirit had descended like a dove upon Jesus. Then this Son of God, having been anointed/Born of the Spirit was SENT out into the world. In going to the cross to die Jesus had faith that he would be resurrected and would bring a resurrection to all the dead having power over all flesh, all of his brethren, able to give eternal life.
    JESUS is asking God for the glory of eternal life, to be the “firstborn of many brethren”, of which is what God had promised to MANKIND before the world began.  
    Jesus was acknowledging his faith in God, believing that God would carry out His plan for mankind that existed before time began. Here we have a man like all men fearful of death, but yet he was able to overcome that fear and serve God, declare his faith in God to the point he would die. You pre-existers want to deny this righteousness God brought in a man and say Jesus had faith in knowing that he could become immortal as he was before.
    CAN you see the great difference between the two?
    Jesus quoted Isaiah about his anointing, he knew himself as the Messiah and he believed God’s word having faith that as God fulfilled one promise in Isaiah He would fulfill all of His word, the promise given to David concerning himself that he would die but his flesh would not see corruption but eternal life, and then he would also have the glory of giving his father David eternal life too.
    You pre-existers want to ignore that and say Jesus wanted the glory of being a god again, or he wanted the glory of being some spirit son again.
    How can Jesus ask his brethren to be willing to die in his name? A true believer is to have the MIND of Jesus the Christ, how would that be possible if the mind of Jesus KNEW immortality already and had faith because he already had it?
    No scripture says Jesus was already a Son, scripture says the Messiah was to COME of the seed of David of the tribe of Judah an Israelite. Scripture says the Messiah STILL IS of the seed of David of the tribe of Judah an Israelite, the Son of Man, MADE into a Son of God. He is the firstborn of many brethren, JUST as God had promised, a promise that was with God the Father before HE made the world. 
    #842491
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 10
    • Total replies 1,544

    Not sure how my last post was posted without spaces, weird when they are shown in the text box but then when submitted it comes out differently….? I even edited it adding double spaces and nothing changed.

     

    #842492
     Admin 
    Keymaster
    • Topics started 92
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    Jodi, there are 2 modes in the editor, Visual and Text.

    Visual gives you more idea of how the post will look.

    Text is good if you want to paste in simple text without associated code and formatting. It is also good as you can input HTML code yourself if you know how to code. And an important note, because it is code compatible, in HTML, a space is a space, but two spaces are still a space. This is so because code is written and sectioned with multiple spaces to make it more readable, but without making it an actual space. In HTML a space is an actual character.

    In short, paste text into Text mode so as to not carry across formatting, and input in Visual mode to see how the post will actually look like. You can switch between the two whenever you want.

    #842506
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 16,604

    Carmel…..what Jodi has posted here is the truth. Those who understand it are blessed with the truth of God.

    Peace and love to you and yours…….gene

    #842507
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 16,604

    Nick….God and his word are one, and those who have God`s words in them and speak and believe them are “one” with God, for God is a spirit and so is his words. All words are spirit, but not all words are of God, neither are all spirits, we are to try the spirits to see if they are of God,

    You can not seperate God from his word they are one and the same, God who is spirit dwells in us via his word which is spirit also. So if God is in you thwn so is his word they are one and the same. Remember? In the beginning was the word and the word was with God AND THE WORD “IS” GOD.

    peace and love to you and yours…….gene

    #842509
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,962

    Hi Gene,

    No. you misquote scripture.

    THE WORD WAS GOD.

    #842510
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
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    Hi T8,

    You know you are always right and you know it is just a case of finding a way to prove others to be deceived.

    So far you have tried labelling, patronising, demonising and now you resort to name calling.

     

    Is this really the full extent of your spiritual maturity?

     

    #842518
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 903
    • Total replies 18,820

    You know you are always right and you know it is just a case of finding a way to prove others to be deceived.

    Yes, if I agree with a scripture, then I am right. If you disagree with a scripture, then you are wrong.

    Simple.

    Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.

    See that? It’s not that I am right per se, but that I believe scripture is right.

    Obviously some people believe that scripture is wrong and thus they would conclude I am wrong.

    But you believe scripture is right and when I show you scripture, you say it is wrong.

    Funny that.

    #842519
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 903
    • Total replies 18,820

    It doesn’t say the Word was the God.

    There is no definite article.

    #842520
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 903
    • Total replies 18,820

    God and his word are one

    And the Logos was WITH the Theos.

    Boom!

    #842530
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 10
    • Total replies 1,544

    Hi Admin,

    Thank you!

    Another question, which I think I asked before but forgot. Sometimes when I post, editing is available but other times it is not. Even in my last post that I attempted to edit by adding spaces, I now can’t edit it anymore. There have been posts that I have been able to edit more than once. Why is editing so inconsistent?

    Thank you,   Jodi

    #842537
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 16,604

    T8….Are your words with you? You and your words are the same. They are the exact expression of who and what you are. Therefore every man is tried by the words he or she speaks, why? Because that is who you are.

    Jesus said the Father was “IN” him, how is he in him? Is it not by his spirit? Remember what he said, “the WORDS i am telling you ARE SPIRIT, AND ARE LIFE. God is a spirit and so are his words, God and his words are the same thing, they are spirit. Where Gods words are so is he. Know you not your body is the temple of the living God. Now if God who is spirit is in you, so is his words..

    For God spoke to us in times past through the prophets, and in these latter day spoke to us through a son.

    GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE, and we are at one with God, when His word which is spirit abides “IN” us.

    Peace and love to you and yours…….gene

    #842547
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 903
    • Total replies 18,820

    Gene, God can be in people and people in God.

    Jodi, the ability to edit a post times out after a while. Editing use to be available all the time, but at least one member used to change their posts and debates when it became clear that they lost and this rendered topic conversations as hard to read. It was a rule that editing had to stop once people responded to your post, but that was followed.

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