Son of God and son of man

This topic contains 41 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  t8 6 months ago.

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  • #818924
     AndrewAD 
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    Lu,thanks for the link and I did read it,but tbh it doesn’t help solve the problems.I’ve read many things and everybody has their ways of explaining everything away,Christans and Jews alike.I’ve even been on Jewish sites,non-Christian ones and asked them to explain some of their theories on Messiah that seem absurd to me and just hard to understand what they mean.They never respond  even though I ask respectfully not seeking any argument.Their theories seem as wacky as all these Christian prophecy pundits which I can at least usually understand their points.But my original point to Jael wasn’t about the discrepancies in the lineages but about the discrepancy of human lineage and virgin birth.

    #818925
     AndrewAD 
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    Jael,

    Furthermore even if Jesus be an ethereal God man with no human lineage he could still be the messiah for some.In the time of Jesus their were various theories on it as there are today and I think it possible that even Jesus in Mark expresses the idea that Christ may not be from David when he says in   Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David?:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.The idea being that fathers don’t call their sons Lord so how does David do this? perhaps it’s because he’s really not his son? or some have suggested it’s because this Lord/messiah is greater than he because of preexistence as a supernatural being as we discussed about Jn8.

    A supernatural god-man may well have a supernatural birth with signs and portents since it was claimed that many rulers, heros and gods of various nations did.The virgin birth is no different and signifies his deity.

    #818926
     AndrewAD 
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    As for what trins think about God of course it varies and it’s not right to throw everyone under the same bus.Most common people don’t think about it all that much and don’t pretend to be theologians,but many are truly devoted to what they believe.And there are different understandings of the trinity as there are on most all theological issues.But to put it simply I would say most think of God as Father and Son/Jesus and the Spirit as the one who is with them and makes it all real.

    At the end of Matt’s gospel we have being baptized in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit which is a liturgical formula that developed early on but probably not from any original apostle.None of the gospels claim to be written by apostles,but were all written anonymously; it’s only church tradition that says they were to give them more authority.But the formula makes sense in that in Christianity we need all three-we can’t have the Father without the Son and we can’t have either without the Spirit or however one thinks that works.All Christians that I know of believe in all three even if they don’t believe in the term trinity.It’s simple to see why Jesus had to become God and the need to make them one.Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism which was strictly monotheistic yet Jesus as the Son of God received worship as God.Even the disciples and others in the gospels,Paul,and others are said to worship Jesus.If it’s a sin to worship any other than God then Jesus is God too. Of course most Jews were offended at that and that caused a rift to where they were being kicked out of the synagogues and had to form their own and the animosity began.We see this constantly in the gospels and nowhere more than John where it makes Jesus God and Jesus much more Christian than Jewish. It shouldn’t be any wonder that the author of John says in 5:18 that by Jesus calling himself the Son of God was making himself equal to God because the Christians had to say that in order to justify worshiping and praying to Jesus. And the Jews didn’t like it and said they were blaspheming.

    #818928
     t8 
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    #818961
     Ed J 
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    (A)Hello Edj… (a1)It is a dangerous road to go down if it is to be suggested that Jesus’ birth was through natural means in terms of human procreation. (a2)This would lead to the ‘veneration and worship of Mary’ that many Protestant and others are fond of claiming – (a3)despite absolutely no evidence from scriptures (nor any verifiable source or anywhere else, come to think of it!)

    God CREATED in Mary a holy and sinless human being. This is NOT PROCREATION.

    OF COURSE Mary would always be CALLED ‘The Mother of Jesus’ because every human birth is attributed to (the mother) – and MORE IMPORTANTLY – to a Father : Naturally and for tradition and heritage sake no one was going to claim GOD as the Father but God instructed Joseph that he should (shake off his doubts, anger and fears and ) continue with Mary as his betrothed and go along with the assumption that the child was his (The pitiless gossip would soon die away!!)

    (B)Edj, please do not enter into specifics of fleshly aspects of things in scriptures. God can do anything to his creation (but doesn’t). 1) Remember Moses… God made his hand wither and then restored it whole both in a moment. 2) Scriptures tells that God can create hunans from bare stones. 3) God says, ‘Who made the blind, who made the deaf… I did!’.

    (C)Edj, (c1)God created the first man (Adam) – God CREATED a second man (Jesus). ALL OTHERS of mankind were PROCREATED from the FATHERS SEED (sperm). (c2)It is the human sperm that carries the SPIRIT that causes the HUMAN PROCREATION. (c3)The HOLY SPIRIT was that spirit in BOTH ADAM AND JESUS.

    Hi Jael,

    A1) I’m not at all suggesting Joseph was Jesus father.
    a2) How so?
    a3) Romans 1:3 are among the many Scriptures

    B) Not sure what you are trying to say here ???

    C1) I believe we kinda agree here
    c2) Do you have any Scripture that supports (It is the human sperm that carries the SPIRIT) this assertion?
    c3) Do you have any Scripture that supports (The HOLY SPIRIT was that spirit in ADAM) this assertion as well?

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #818977
     Jael 
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    Andrew, try this test: When you want to try to prove a scriptural point, find THREE scriptures that qualify that point… Scripture ALWAYS repeats salient points!

    You lay a claim to the element of a verse claiming that baptism should be performed “in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit”.

    1. Please show TWO other scriptures that support and qualify your claim….

    If you CANNOT (and it is a sure bet that you CANNOT) then a good piece of advice is to refrain from using unsubstantiated trinitarian claims as gospel truth.

    It is patently clear that this false claim is unscriptural seeing that there is NO NAME for the Holy Spirit… It is the SPIRIT of the Father. And further, the NAME of the Son is “Jesus”…. AND, as you will see when you fatally try to justify your claim, the scriptures has the Apostles baptising ONLY in the name of JESUS.

    Ha ha ha…. ‘mighty gods’, as pagans would say! your claim actually equates to calling the THREE, “Jesus”….

    Come on, admit it: you say “baptized (sic) in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit” – so what is that ‘Name’? Well, if the Apostles did as you claim then the name of the three is…. ‘JESUS’!!

    So, Andrew, YOUR GOD, is called ‘Jesus’….

    See, Andrew, false scriptural claims ALWAYS come back to bite you – Check-mate!

    #818981
     Jael 
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    EDj,

    A1) I’m not at all suggesting Joseph was Jesus father.
    a2) How so?
    a3) Romans 1:3 are among the many Scriptures

    B) Not sure what you are trying to say here ???

    C1) I believe we kinda agree here
    c2) Do you have any Scripture that supports (It is the human sperm that carries the SPIRIT) this assertion?
    c3) Do you have any Scripture that supports (The HOLY SPIRIT was that spirit in ADAM) this assertion as well?

    A1) No one of true christian values reading the scriptures ever did.

    a2) What so? (Please state what you are querying)

    a3) What about Romans 1:3? What I said does not deny his earthly lineage. What I said was that he was a HOLY SPIRITED CREATION, not a HUMAN PRO-CREATION. I’m sure you can read as well as others where the Angel Gabriel told the virgin Mary (and it had to be a virgin so no one could claim latent sperm form an illicit affair, perhaps) that “The Holy Spirit will overshadow you and THEREFORE the child to be born will be called Holy – the son of God”. Pro-Creation refers to “[human] reproduction”… Are you going to claim that Jesus was a ‘human reproduction’ from Mary? Moreover, are you STILL NOT ABLE to understand what the term “SON OF GOD” means -Even after the STRONGLY WORDED statement from the Angel Gabriel: ‘…THEREFORE…”?

    B) What is it you cannot understand (It would be helpful if you quoted or even pointed out what you are referring to!)

    C1) … hmmm…

    c2) EDj, Do you need scriptures to know this? It is common biology. Are you aware of the female reproductive cycle? What happens to the eggs produced each month..? Are they not FLUSHED AWAY as unused produce in a manner regarded as so ‘Shameful’ (refer to pre-modern liberal era) that women have to hide away during this period? Edj, what happens to unused sperm in a male? Do you know that it is RE-ABSORBED into the man’s body? The Sperm is “Life” given to the egg if they properly encounter each other. I’m surprised you have to ask… are you a diehard antagonist?

    c3) Edj, what is it about antagonists that make them love themselves? Where are you seeing me say that the Holy Spirit was in Adam? Misread what i said? Ok, I’ll take it as that… God Almighty created a LIFELESS BODY of a human person and BLEW the breath of life into his nostrils (not literally… it is a way of saying, ‘He began to breathe’ – remember that Moses was not credited with knowledge of the methodology of modern day science – and the man became a LIVING SOUL. The Holy Spirit was the means by which God enlivened the body of Adam… just as the Holy Spirit was the means by which God enlivened the seed of Mary to form the living child come to be named ‘Jesus’, ‘The SECOND/LAST ADAM’

    #818987
     AndrewAD 
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    Jael,

    I only mentioned baptism and Matt 28:19 in response to you asking me about how trins think.I don’t care either way but Matt 28:19 is legit as scripture in my mind since it is in the bible and all the manuscripts read that way and many early Christians did use that formula.And “in the name of” probably means in the authority of. You know I wasn’t advocating all three names be Jesus as many modalists use. So why do you even accuse me of that?

    You do believe in the Father,Son and the Holy Spirit,oh forbid I say Ghost,correct? and they are essential to Christian salvation,correct?

    And there are many things that are only mentioned one time in the bible,so does that make them all illegitimate? and verses that disagree with others.But perhaps we should use your method of three verses versus one when it comes to the synoptics compared to John and see where we could go with that.

    #818989
     Ed J 
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    Hi Jael,

    Thank you for clarifying your belief : )

    ________________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #820075
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,

    As Jesus was conceived in Mary he is like us and a son of Adam(man).

    God announced his sonship to Him at the Jordan.

     

    The Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God. Rom 8.14

    He was led by the Spirit of God.

     

    #820076
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,

    Of course the prophecy about the Son was also shown in Ps2, and quoted in Acts 13

    ”You are My Son. Today I have begotten you…..

    Now Therefore, O kings, show discernment; take a warning O judges of the earth…..

    Do homage to the Son, that he not become angry, and you perish in the way”

    #821178
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jael,

    The breath of God gave us life.

    There is no scripture that says that the first Adam had the Spirit of eternal life.

     

    The breath of God is not the Spirit of God.

    #821179
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jael,

    Adam could have eaten of the tree of life but was conned into eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    That knowledge took away our excuse of ignorance of what are good behaviours and what is of sin.

    Jesus condemned sin in the flesh and gave the power to overcome sin to his brothers.

    #821181
     Ed J 
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    Can anyone show me from Jewish customs or scriptures:

    1) Where a Son is supposedly equal to his Father

    Hi Jael,

    “Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had
    broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father,
    making himself equal with God.” (John 5:18)

    _____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #821185
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Ed,

    And why would they think that?

    #821196
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Edj….so are we equal with God, “know you not, that you (are now) sons of the living God”? The jews told jesus they have but onefather even God,did that make them equal with God? If JESUS was equal with God ,then why did he say “the Father is greater then him?

    Show us a scripture saying Jesus is equal to God.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

    #821750
     t8 
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    No one is equal with God in total terms, but we can share his nature which is divine nature, like the son of God.Equal perhaps in the sense of having the same nature. While humans are not equal in ability, we are all equal in our nature. God is Jesus Father and the same God is or Father. And even us Believers can participate in this divine nature.

    #822797
     NickHassan 
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    Hi ,

    The Spirit is given to those in the Son.

    The Spirit produces good fruit in those who let it happen.

    The nature of our loving God can be expressed in the Spirit He shares with us.

    Jesus was given the Spirit without measure and he allowed God to fully express His wisdom and powers

    .

    #822798
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,

    Jn 15

    ‘..for apart from me you can do nothing.’

     

    Jesus said the same thing about his relationship with the Father.

    It is the Spirit of God that he and his brothers share that makes us one.

     

    #822799
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Nick….Right, we also who have the SPIRIT FROM GOD DWELLING IN US have the very same nature as the Father. But some will try to make JESUS OR BROTHER DIFFERENT THEN US, so they struggel to make his idenity with us different. Scripture says “God, the Father, works “IN” US “BOTH” TO “WILL” AND DO OF “HIS” GOOD PLEASURE”, just as he did in Jesus our lord, better our brother.

    Did not Jesus say to us, ” if you being evil know how to give good gifts, how much more will not your heavenly Father give his spirit to them that ask. Ask and you shall recieve, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you”.

    Now we know that spirit begets spirit, just as flesh begets flesh, so we are all of one flesh, even so God who is Spirit, PUTS HIS Spirit in us. The spirit is the intellect in a man, “for what knows a man except the spirit that is in him”, so think on whatsoever is of a good report, think on these things, resist D-EVIL spirits, and D-EVIL spirits WILL LEAVE YOU, SEEK THE GOOD OR GOD’S spirit, for spirit “begets” spirit. If a person seeks evil spirits it will beget its own kind, if they seek good spirit it will also beget its kind, this is the way we grow one way or the other, IMO. “MAKE THE TREE GOOD AND IT’S FRUIT GOOD, OR ELSE MAKE THE TREE CORRUPT AND IT’S FRUIT CORRUPT, FOR EVERY TREE IS KNOWN BY IT’S FRUIT. Remember a “tree” brings fruit from itself. ”

    For it is by our own words we will be justified, and by our words we shall be condemned”, we are told. Matt 12:33-37

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

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