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Desire Truth……Again Berean has brought out scriptures that back the point of who the servant of God really was, it was the one that would “restore Israel” , not Israel itself. Right. so with that in view the prophesy in Isa 53, could not be referring to the nation of Israel it self. The nation of Israel never did any of those things mentioned in Isaiah 53.
Jesus is the one God will use to restore Israel and the Gentiles also IMO. I really don’t think you are realizing the Jews Rejected Jesus, both then and now as the true Messiah , so naturally their scholars will tweak the text to favor their views . Jesus Christ is and was the stuffing servant of God, no matter what those Jews say. Don’t let them fool you brother, they rejected Jesus and had him crucified , his blood was and is on their head, just as they said …..Matt 27:25…..”then answered all the people, and said, his blood be on us and on our children” , and so it was on and is on them> IMOpeace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………..gene
You: What an exemplary display of “Christ like” love!
Me: Is this a joke? You are the one who denies Jesus Christ!
May God grant you repentance.
@Gene,
@Berean,We can go off on another tangent with Isa 49:1-6 (the second Servant Song); however, we still haven’t finished with who is speaking in Isa 52:13-53:12. It’s as if everyone keeps dodging the question; let’s focus like a laser beam on this ONE topic so we can move on.
Desire Truth…….If you are going to insist that it is referring to Israel as a “righteous Servant of God” in the ‘Song” then it is also incumbent upon you to tell us, in what way “Israel was a, “Righteous Servant” , Right? If you can’t prove that, then your whole argument fails apart right?
Another thing to remember is Jesus himself was an Israelite, so perhaps he is the fulfillment of that prophesy in chapter 53. You can’t separate Jesus from Israel, seeming he was an Israelite also.By the way I never called you names intentionally, this tablet sometimes add things into the text I am writing, sorry for that. I think you are a very studious person by the way, have from the start and still do.
Peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……….gene
@ desire Truth
Acts 8
Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
[30] And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
[31] And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
[32] The place of the scripture which he read was this,“He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
[33] In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.”[34] And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
[35] Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
The Ethiopian in Acts 8:34 asked a question about Isaiah 52:13-53:12: Of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man? This question is still asked today, and the answer is extremely important.
Through the book of Isaiah, many have been called servants of the LORD in one way or another. This includes Isaiah himself (Isaiah 20:3), Eliakim (Isaiah 22:20), David (Isaiah 37:35), and Israel (Isaiah 41:8-9). But there is no doubt that the phrase is also used as a specific title for the Messiah, , and this is what is in view here.(v.34)
Berean good job , all the disciples knew that those scriptures were talking about Jesus, I also believe that. The kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah, only served God when they were forced to, by their leaders, they were rebellious to God continuously, that is why God kicked them out of their lands because they rebelled against him and would not serve him, as Old Testament scriptures clearly show. And with that understanding, there is no way in which Isaiah was speaking about Israel . It might apply in the future, but it’s certainly does not at this time, nor the tine it was written. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Berean………..gene
Thanks Gene for
your encouragement.
Let us pray that the love of the truth motivates us more and more each day and that God helps us to know how to exhort ourselves for his glory.🙏
You said to Carmel: I am stunned by your response! None of what you said is supported by scripture. The only thing that comes to mind is, “get behind me Satan.”
Me: So, for YOU it is ok to rebuke other people. But when I do it, then I’m the unloving one.
What an exemplary display of hypocrisy! Anyway, you call yourself “desiretruth,” yet you reject the one who is the truth – Jesus Christ! (John 14:6)
What a wicked game.Hi Desire Truth and All,
Been very busy but able to catch some posts in my email.
I did a bible study yesterday, which looks like Berean also did, regarding the servants mentioned in Isaiah.
I think it is interesting the names that Berean provided and looking at what they mean,
Isaiah is called God’s servant in 20:3, Isaiah’s name means, “Jehovah has saved“.
Eliakim is called God’s servant in 22:20, his name means “God raises up“.
David is called God’s servant in 37:35, his name means, “beloved“.
Israel is called God’s servant in 41:8, Israel means, “God prevails”.
It can be said I do believe that all of these names also represent Christ in some way.
Let’s look at another name mentioned,
Isaiah 44: 1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: 2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
Jeshurun = “upright one“, a symbolic name for Israel describing her ideal character
Most certainly Jesus Christ, God’s beloved Son whom God raised up from the dead is an upright one, he is of ideal character and also said to be a firstborn of many brethren. God has indeed prevailed where by God through Jesus Christ Jews and Gentiles are saved.
As the name Israel represents Jacob, one person, and also represents 12 tribes (his descendants), can this name not also represent in another instance one person, one specific descendant of Israel?
Isaiah 49: 1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. 2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. 8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
This is clearly speaking of the unnamed servant Isaiah spoke of in chapter 42, also spoken of in Isaiah 11 and 61.
42:1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations. 2 He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. 3 A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; 4 he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his teaching the islands will put their hope…6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
This servant who is given a mouth like a sharp sword and is called by God as “O Israel“, is mentioned in Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Israel most certainly in scripture represents the one person Jacob as well as his descendants and further one specific descendant, Jesus Christ.
Reflect on the meaning of the name Israel, it means “God prevails”.
In the book of Isaiah God promises Israel that He will redeem them, that He will remember their sins no more and He does this through His righteous servant Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 43: 1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine….10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour…24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities. 25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
This makes me think of 1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Clearly Isaiah 53 is prophecy of the men who would report the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, that of Peter and Paul as well as others.
Hi Desire Truth,
You asked who is speaking,
Isaiah 52:13-15 sounds to me like it is God speaking
Isaiah 53: 1-10 as mentioned in my previous post this is prophecy of the apostles, those reporting on the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, those who preached to bring forth belief in him.
Isaiah 53:111-12 God is speaking
What’s happening in Isaiah 52:1-12 we are being given history and that of prophecy, prophecy of the LORD’s Day, a day where those who sleep the sleep of death in Christ will awake to a reward, a day of joy and comfort where people receive the eternal drink of the One Spirit, a day where Jesus will sit and rule over all the earth on his father David’s throne in Jerusalem bringing forth blessing and peace, where all inhabitants will worship our Heavenly Father having the Spirit upon them that is in all goodness righteousness and truth.
1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.
3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.
4 For thus saith the Lord GOD, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.
5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.
9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.
12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
The spoil, what did Jesus gain from dying on the cross? He was raised from the dead and received the promised Spirit to live in him forevermore and he was declared to be a future judge and king overall the earth. When Jesus returns those who believe in him he will give also of this Spirit. Further, Jesus will appoint men to be judges and rulers over all the earth with him.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Hi Desiretruth,
Me: just in case you forgot or you missed my Post:
Here is
1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all,
which I also received:
how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures: 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures:
AND THIS IS MY QUESTION:
FROM WHOM PAUL RECEIVED WHAT HE DELIVERED?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Jodi………Hope all is well with you and yours, Excellent post, that’s the way I see it also. Hope Desire Truth, comes to see it that way also. Thanks.
peace and love to you and yours Jodi…………..gene
Desire Truth …….Please really consider what we are telling you brother.
peace and love to you and yours………..gene
The Word is the Spirit of Christ.
A portion of the Holy Spirit assigned to the Son.
The Word was made flesh at the Jordan.
We see the apportioning of the Spirit shown when Elisha asked for a double portion of the Spirit given to Elijah.
Scripture is written in spiritual language and it does not fit with human logic.@Gene,
It seems Christianity must push/inject Jesus into Isa 53. Is God speaking in verses 10-12 thru Isaiah? If yes, then this response MUST be referring back to the previous section of this chapter. If no, then who is speaking? I am a little perplexed to why most (thank you Jodi) won’t answer who is speaking where in this “song.”
We keep saying this is absolutely all about Jesus; why then is verse 10 left off in every response or glossed over and not responded to? The simple answer is verse 10 cannot be used because it doesn’t fit Jesus. Yet, verses 11 & 12 are said to be referring to him, but verse 10 precedes 11 & 12 they must be read together as one thought.
Vs. 10 Yet it pleased HaShem to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of HaShem might prosper by his hand:
It “pleased” or “delighted” God to crush his “son” and to make him “weak”, “sick”, or “ill”? This doesn’t make sense, would you do this to your own son or daughter and for what purpose? Then to take pleasure in “crushing” them. Is it possible for God to take “pleasure” in correcting disobedience and thru this affliction, turn the nation of Israel back to him?
As we continue reading: “to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution” or as a “guilt offering”; so Israel was “crushed” to get them to turn back to God. They are to present a “guilt offering” to God; what is this “guilt offering”? For this go to biblehub.com, look up the verse, and go to the Hebrew translation. Here we see the “guilt offering” is an “asham” offering. Looking up this “asham”, it is a type of offering done when one doesn’t know if they have committed a sin or what sin they may have committed. This offering does fit when applied to Israel, who is in exile at this time and would continue to be. The longer they are in exile the less likely they are going to follow after God and do his commands; thus, would unknowingly be sinning against God. Is it possible God gives them an “easy” way back to him; admit they unknowingly sinned and turn back to HIM. When they do, they will see their offspring, live long, and the will of God will prosper in all they do.
How does verse 10 fit Jesus?
Then moving onto verse 11 where some are hung up on the wording of “my righteous servant.” Some translations say “righteous one, my servant” and others say “my servant”; “righteous” here is an adjective describing the servant. Why is the servant now called “righteous”, could it be because they turned back to God and in doing so are following God’s commands, HIS laws (remember the “if” statement in verse 10). Deut. 6:25 “And it shall be righteousness unto us, if we observe to do all this commandment before HaShem our G-d, as He hath commanded us.”
In verse 12 I will focus on the last part as this is getting extremely long and by this point most reading will have glossed over and just skipped on; “yet he bore the sin of the many, and for the transgressors he prayed.” What is this “sin”; look it up on biblehub and the word is “chet”, comes from “chata.”, which means to “miss the mark.” In the Hebrew culture “chet” is one of three degrees of sin and is to inadvertently sin, one has “missed the mark.” Applying this context, Israel would have “bore the (inadvertent) sins” of her oppressor who unjustly abused Israel while in exile; as explained by the nations in verses 4-5.
“…for the transgressors he prayed” is a continuation of the above explanation; so God is saying his “righteous servant” prayed for the transgressor. Jer 29:4 “Thus says Yahweh of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have deported from Jerusalem to Babylon, 5 ‘Build houses and live in them, and plant gardens and eat their fruit. 6 Take wives and father sons and daughters, and take for your sons wives, and give your daughters to men that they may bear sons and daughters, and multiply there, and you must not be few. 7 And seek the prosperity of the city where I have deported you, and pray on behalf of it to Yahweh, for in its prosperity you will have prosperity.’”
Another point concerning the “prayed for the transgressor”, is Jesus in heaven praying continually for mankind? Before all jump on the “yes” bandwagon, Jesus was to “intercede” on our behalf acting as our mediator; praying and interceding are not the same.
How is Jesus in any of this?
I would recommend what you do is compare the Acts 8:32-33 passage to the OT passage in Isa 53:7-8 and tell me they’re the same. The Acts passage has been modified. Seems a bit naughty to change what Isaiah relayed from God.
Isa 8 “By oppression and judgment He was taken away;”
Acts 33 “In humiliation His judgment was taken away;”
In Isa “he” is taken away and in Acts his “judgment” is taken away. This isn’t a word nuance, they don’t say the same thing; why the modification? How many modifications like this are allowed and the NT still be called the “inspired word of God”? And you wonder why I am now questioning the veracity of the NT; these type of modifications are everywhere in the NT and the book of Hebrews is the worst.
Thank you for answering my question of who is speaking where…finally! I will respectfully disagree with your interpretation of who is speaking in Isa 53:1-9 (don’t include verse 10 in this dialogue, verse 10 belongs with 11-12). If you are going to say Isaiah is prophesying what the apostles are going to say speaking of the crucified of Jesus, then the personal pronouns need an explanation. If the “our”, “me”, and “my” refer to the apostles and the “he”, “him”, and “his” refer to Jesus; then Jesus died only for the apostles since the “our”, “me”, and “my” take ownership of the deeds done to the “servant.” Doesn’t make sense does it?
I don’t know how much of this you have been following; but, I asked a short while ago where it states in the OT what Paul says in I Corinthians 15:3-4 “according to scripture” (meaning it’s stated in the OT) the Messiah was to “die for the sins of mankind” and “be buried and raised again on the third day.”
I have been given Isa 53, Ps 16, and Ps 22 as being “proof” of this claim and if one where to truly look at these passages, Jesus is nowhere to be found in any of them. Looking thru a christological lens one can find “dying for sins”, but to be raised on the third day is missing. Some will jump to Jonah as proof; please don’t, Jesus said he would be in the earth AS Jonah was in the belly of the whale. This isn’t a prophecy, but a comparison and Jonah being in the whale was a punishment for not listening to God. If we are going to use Jonah as proof, what was Jesus being punished for? Before you answer that with “our sins”, please explain where in the OT it states anyone is responsible and is punished for the guilt of another.
Desire Truth……..you said…..>Vs. 10 Yet it pleased HaShem to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of HaShem might prosper by his hand:
It “pleased” or “delighted” God to crush his “son” and to make him “weak”, “sick”, or “ill”? This doesn’t make sense, would you do this to your own son or daughter and for what purpose? Then to take pleasure in “crushing” them. Is it possible for God to take “pleasure” in correcting disobedience and thru this affliction, turn the nation of Israel back to him?
Me …Yes it makes perfect sense, if you consider What Jesus did was pleasing to God, why because it showed God the Father how much Jesus loved him, that he was willing to put himself to so much suffering and even death, in obedience to him. It’s all about “who is your ‘FIRST” love”. Jesus demonstrated his ‘first love” above “all things, even his own life was God the Father. Even Abraham willing to even put his Son Issac to death in obedience to God, was pleasing to God the Father, that is why he is called the, “father of the faithful”.
Desire Truth, It certainly did please God the Father , what Jesus did by pouring his soul out to death, in obedience to him, we must also come to that point in our lives also, Jesus “demonstrated ” to us all what God the Father requires of us all. God the Father must become the “First love”. of us all, exactly as he was to Jesus, and Abraham both.
peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth………gene
I Corinthians 15:3-4 are the verses in question; Paul stated “according to scripture” (meaning this is in the OT) and it’s the claim “the Messiah dying for the sins of mankind” and “being buried and raised on the third day.” I am asking for the verses in the OT that support Paul’s statement.
If what Paul states isn’t in the OT, we have a problem.
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