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Berean……DO YOU BELIEVE Jesus said …….“I am, the root and “OFFSPRING” OF DAVID? please explain how Jesus could be the “offspring” of David, and still preexist his birth on the earth. Show proof, not your “MORPHED “. mystery religion BS.
There is only one answer to the above question, Jesus was “IN”, the plan and Will of God before he ever existed, as an actual being, the same way King Cyrus was, they both were mentioned in prophecy, until they actually came into their only “TRUE” existence. Simple as that , for those who believe Jesus, and “ARE GUIDED BY THE SPIRT OF TRUTH” .
peace and love to you and yours Berean………gene
Gene
MICAH 5
[2] But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;👉 whose goings forth have been from of old, 👉 from everlasting.👈
✴️ ✴️✴️✴️✴️ ✴️ FROM
EVERLASTING
✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️✴️
@ Danny,
You haven’t explained why there is no agreement in what the new testament says, why every religion seems to have their own interpretation or understanding and will argue how their understanding is correct and your interpretation is wrong. I would call this confusion and my God is not a God of confusion, he is a God of order.
You ask if God is able to protect his “word”, of course; BUT, what qualifies as God’s Word?
You believe the King James is the “word of God”, but other translations aren’t? Confused as the Tyndale, Coverdale, Webster, Young’s Literal, and King James all come from the Textus Receptus, so which one is better? Which KJ translation do you use – 1611, 1769, or newer?
What’s the real question you want to ask?
Hi Jodi,
You: The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven mean the same thing.
Me: Jodi, WITH EVERY RESPECT, God’s things, are definitely SPIRITUAL, AND AS I ALWAYS MADE CLEAR, THAT FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO GOD’S WORK, AND ONLY HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO ALL HIS WORK, EVEN AS FLESH, IN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH THE SON OF MAN, THUS YOU AND YOUR ALLIES, PERSONS MORE CARNALLY MINDED AND INTERESTED ONLY IN WORLDLY WISDOM, NEVERTHELESS Jodi, BY YOUR OWN WORDS IN THESE FORUMS, CONFIRM THAT SELF-PRIDE HAS POWER OVER YOU, I MEAN OVER YOUR SOUL, HENCE, IT IS QUITE EVIDENT THAT DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU DON’T POSSESS ADEQUATE MATURITY IN GOD’S WISDOM AND SPIRITUAL MYSTERIES, NEVERTHELESS WITHOUT ANY HESITATION, YOU BY MOST OF YOUR PREACHING, AGAIN WITH EVERY RESPECT TO YOU, PUT YOURSELF NOT ONLY IN AN AMBIGUOUS POSITION BUT, YOU COULDN’T CARE LESS IF BY YOUR PREACHING YOU DESTROY THE SUPPOSED REPUTATION YOU HAVE IN THESE FORUMS. THIS IS CONFIRMED SIMPLY AS DESPITE YOU PRODUCE LOADS OF SCRIPTURES OF WHICH IN THE MAJORITY CONTRADICT YOU, IN CASES AS IN THE ABOVE YOU ARE NOT ONLY IN THE POSITION TO FURNISH US A MERE VERSE TO SUPPORT YOUR CORRUPTED REASONING AND DELUSIONS BUT DESPITE SCRIPTURE IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL YOU ARE SIMPLY NOT ONLY BLIND BUT CONFIRM THAT YOUR SPIRITUAL MATURITY IN GOD’S WORK, IN GENERAL, AFTER 2000 YEARS OF JESUS SPIRITUAL GOSPEL ON EARTH, A GOSPEL TOTALLY OPPOSITE TO THE OT. OF MOSES’ CARNAL LAW, TO BE CLEAR NOTHING IN RELATION TO THE FLESH AND BLOOD PROCESS ON THIS PLANET,
YOU STILL LIVE ON MILK!
Now to your BLINDNESS!
You: The kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven mean the same thing.
I’ll give it STRAIGHT to you and your allies!
NO, SPECIFICALLY SPEAKING IT IS NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL!
NEVERTHELESS, IT IS
TWO IN ONE KINGDOM!
Now read again what I asked you in one of my posts, and reflect with the hope that the Holy Spirit will give THE LIGHT that you lack!
You: This Son of Man, where God promised to be a Father unto him and give him
an eternal kingdom,
HOW IS IT THAT THIS SUPPOSED ETERNAL KINGDOM PROMISED BY THE FATHER TO HIS SON,
THIS SON OF MAN,
WHO CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, John 3:13
AT THE VERY END IS GIVEN TO GOD, TO BE
ALL IN ALL FOR ETERNITY?WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THIS SON OF MAN THEN, Jodi?
WHERE WOULD THIS SON OF MAN, while God would be all in all,
ENDS UP?
HE DEFINITELY WOULD NOT BE OVER HIS SUPPOSED
ETERNAL THRONE NO?
AS ETERNAL KING! AGAIN, OVER HIS SUPPOSED
ETERNAL KINGDOM?
my question now is :
WHY DID JESUS COME ON EARTH BOTH
THE SON OF GOD AND THE SON OF MAN!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ!
Berean, you said……..>Gene
MICAH 5
[2] But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;👉 whose goings forth have been from of old, 👉 from everlasting.👈
✴️ ✴️✴️✴️✴️ ✴️ FROM
EVERLASTING
meSo tell us, did Bethlehem Ephratah and Judah also exist from “everlasting “. Seeing that’s were this ruler was said, “shall” come from? obviously if this ruler was to come from there and it was from everlasting, as you say, then how is it you somehow can separate Jesus from he rest of the text. YOU CAN’T!
Also the term “shall come” , is all “futuristic “, and does not imply any past “existence at all. The words “who’s going forth have been from of old, “from everlasting ” , shows the “whole thing is a prophetic statement”, not just part of it, as you falsely suppose.
Berean you should easily have understood that, This is why I know you lack the Spirit of truth in you .
peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene
Berean……Had you truly believed Jesus, as I ask you, on the preceding post to you, about Jesus saying ” I am the root and “offspring ” of David”, you could have easily put it together with the scripture in Micah5:2 and understood it clearly.
The Jesus you have been taught to believe in, is not, the Jesus of scripture Berean. REPENT!
peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene
Hi Berean,
NO, I do not believe that the Son of Man existed literally in the heavens and then came down to earth to be our savior.
For you to even ask this question it is clear that you haven’t been reading the scriptures that I have provided and my statements applying them together.
The Son of Man, born of the Spirit, was sent by God to be our savior and he came directly from God, down to us from heaven.
Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Acts 2:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him…5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God…12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:..31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all…32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony…33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom GOD HATH SENT speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
In John 3,
Nicodemus rightfully called Jesus a teacher COME FROM GOD, he was the prophet like unto Moses that God RAISED UP FROM AMONG HIS BRETHREN to teach God’s Word and those who believed in that Word would be saved.
Jesus taught that a man must be BORN OF the Spirit of God to enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus taught that the Son of Man came down from heaven, that he that cometh from above is above all and that he speaks heavenly things.
We are told that he whom God SENT speaks the words of God for God giveth him the Spirit not by measure.
We are then immediately told that the Father loveth the Son and has given all things into his hands and he who believes in the heavenly things he teaches will have everlasting life.
John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom HE HATH SENT, him ye believe not.
1 Chronicles 17 teaches us that God would become a Father unto a seed of David and that He would settle him into His kingdom.
Berean,
God would become a Father unto a Son of Man and God would settle him into His kingdom. Jesus said a man must be born of the Spirit to enter into God’s kingdom.
He whom God SENT speaks God’s word for he received the Spirit not by measure. He who taught GOD’S WORD, speaking not earthly words but HEAVENLY WORDS, had COME FROM GOD, or in other words had COME FROM HEAVEN.
God would raise unto Israel a savior of the seed of David, John preached of him BEFORE HIS COMING. Jesus said that he had received the Spirit to be SENT into the world to deliver captives, to set us at liberty, to save that which is lost.
The Son of Man was BORN OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD at the river Jordan, with him being declared at that moment to be God’s Son. He was then SENT out into the world, not being of the world but being of heaven having come from God to be our savior and speak not earthly words but God’s words, heavenly things where those who believed in his word would be saved. This man who was the only begotten of God’s Spirit without measure was settled into God’s kingdom where he sits at God’s right hand just as God had promised unto a son of David.
@ Jodi
The Son of Man, born of the Spirit, was sent by God to be our savior and he came directly from God, down to us from heaven.
Me
That’s deceptive language you have.
Jesus LITERALLY came down from Heaven where his Father was and at the resurrection he went back up to where he was before.
THAT IS THE REAL TRUTH.John 16
[28] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.Ephesians 4
[10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)These two verses are enough to understand that Jesus did come down from Heaven LITERALLY.
🙏
@ Berean,
Since you believe Jesus preexisted in heaven (no “new testament” in the first century) and the only verses ever used to support the claim are out of the “new testament”; please site old testament verses that support this claim.
and the only verses ever used to support the claim are out of the “new testament”;
Me
The important thing is that we had this more advanced knowledge in due time by the new testament.
First knowledge is in Proverbs 30
that of course YOU BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY (we have already seen that)Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?
The other is found in Daniel 3:
[22] Therefore because the king’s commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego.
[23] And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
[24] Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
[25] He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of👉 the fourth is like the Son of God.👈🙏
[
Hi Gene,
You: Berean……DO YOU BELIEVE Jesus said …….
“I am, the root and “OFFSPRING” OF DAVID?
please explain how Jesus could be the
“offspring” of David,
and still preexist his birth on the earth. Show proof, not your
“MORPHED “. mystery religion BS.
Me: Presumably Gene, you believe that Jesus is
BOTH THE ROOT and THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID! No?
ISN’T IT A MYSTERY TO YOU THAT JESUS IN ONE INSTANT IS BOTH
THE ROOT, HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN, and ALSO
THE OFFSPRING, VISIBLE, AND KNOWN OF DAVID?
A PERFECT PARADOX
ALSO, THE FACT THAT IT IS A MYSTERY, ISN’T EVIDENTLY CLEAR THAT YOU ARE NOT CONSISTENT REGARDING WHICH MYSTERIES YOU TAKE FOR GRANTED OR NOT?
AREN’T THEY ALL MYSTERIES?
Gene, UNAWARE OF WITH YOUR QUESTION YOU CONFIRMED THAT JESUS
PREEXISTED BEFORE HE WAS
THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID!
DID YOU GET IT? NO, YOU DIDN’T I’M AFRAID! I TELL YOU; READ YOUR QUESTION AGAIN PLEASE:
You: please explain how Jesus could be
the “offspring” of David,
and still preexist his birth on the earth.
WHY DIDN’T YOU MENTION THE WORD
“ROOT” IN THE ABOVE!
WHAT HAPPENED Gene?
Are you preoccupied with the word ROOT?
Do you prefer to do without and in the same time you win your argument?
JESUS IS NOT JUST THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID! OK?
BUT HE IS BOTH THE ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID! NO?
Let’s be clear:
How can one person be alike the parent and the progeny of another?
How can He originate and also receive existence!
The Root may bear the branch; the branch may germinate from the Root; but they are essentially diverse. The Root and the topmost boughs cannot intertwine.
Now, The Root, WHICH IS THE BEGINNING
is that which, hidden and buried, like a treasure in a field, Matthew 13:44, is the spring and origin of life to trees and herbs and countless offspring of the garden and the plain. Thus, Jesus, ETERNAL LIFE, John 17:2,3 John 14:6, 1 John 5:20, FROM THE BEGINNING, is the cause of life NOT ONLY TO DAVID BUT TO ALL.John1:3
Jesus declared and said:
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself,
so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself:
Hence the Root, THE BEGINNING, of David must be EITHER JESUS PREEXISTED OR GOD.
BUT GOD IS NOT IN THE POSITION TO BE EITHER A MERE ROOT OR THE OFFSPRING OF ANY! NO?
It stands to reason then, that Jesus, THE BEGINNING, PREEXISTED AS ETERNAL LIFE, WHO WAS WITH THE FATHER! Asserted hereunder:
1John1:1That which was from the beginning,
which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled,
of the word of life:
2For the life was manifested; and we have seen and do bear witness,
and declare unto you the life eternal,
which was with the Father,
and hath APPEARED to us:
APPEARED; hence
PREEXISTED!
Conclusion:
Jesus preexisted, and As the Root/ETERNAL LIFE of David is
GOD
As His offspring is
MAN
JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD WAS PREEXISTED AS THE SON OF MAN,
the physical embodiment of God!
John3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven,
the Son of man who is in heaven.
IN ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER
GODMAN! John17:5
Gene, and who is in harmony with you and your teachings, read hereunder and ponder please:
Psalm 110:1 The Lord said to my Lord: Sit thou at my right hand: Until I make thy enemies thy footstool.
Matthew 22:41 And the Pharisees being gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42Saying: What think you of Christ? whose son is he? They say to him: David’s. 43He saith to them: How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying:
44The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool?
45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46And no man was able to answer him a word; neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
Mark 12:35 And Jesus answering, said, teaching in the temple: How do the scribes say, that Christ is the son of David?
36For David himself saith by the Holy Ghost: The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool.
37David therefore himself calleth him Lord, and whence is he then his son?
And a great multitude heard him gladly.
Luke 20:41 But he said to them: How say they that Christ is the son of David?
42And David himself saith in the book of Psalms: The Lord said to my Lord, sit thou on my right hand,
43Till I make thy enemies thy footstool.
44David then calleth him Lord: and how is he his son?
ENJOY Gene and Co.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
@ Berean,
Those two verses are all you have for proof for a “preexisting Jesus”? Not sounding like a solid belief. I won’t rehash Prov 30 as we have been over it and you reject what scripture says in favor of your religious understanding.
This statement I find humorous,
You: “The important thing is that we had this more advanced knowledge in due time by the new testament.”
Me: Thus rendering the old testament as a “lesser document” because of our superior knowledge the writers didn’t have when they recorded the word’s that came directly from God. Do you not see the arrogance or the danger of that statement?!? This is another lie told by the “church” to deceive people to submit to whatever flavor religion. The greatest con in all history is when Satan said Jesus was God at the Council of Nicea. I digress…
Let’s look at Daniel, you quote chapter 3:22-25 and using pointy fingers to emphasize “like the Son of God.” To fully understand these words one must know who is speaking, The king (Nebuchadnezzar) asked his counselors “Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire?” and it was they who responded with “like the Son of God.” Are you going to tell me these counselors knew they saw Jesus standing in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed–nego?!?!? JESUS WASN’T TO BE KNOWN FOR ANOTHER 700-800 YEARS!!!! Please don’t tell me God “revealed” to them at this moment this other person was Jesus. Let me also point out, the KJV is one of a few versions that capitalize “son”, thus giving the impression that it’s somehow referring to Jesus when in fact it couldn’t possibly! This is CORRUPTION, with capital letters! Other translations render this phrase as “like a son of the gods”, which seems more appropriate considering these three are captive to the pagan empire Babylon and are in the fire because they refused to bow to the king’s golden statue.
So why did you stopped at 25, why didn’t you continue on through verse 28? “Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed–nego, who hath sent his angel, (need to find me some pointy fingers) and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.” (KJV) Who was the fourth person in the fire? It was an angel sent by God. Now before you go on about the angel being Jesus, do recall in Gen:6 2,4, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7 the term “sons of God” is used and who is being referenced, but the angels.
How is this so difficult to understand? An even better question, why are you listening to what your religion tells you when they are speaking lies!?!?! What you need to do is RUN!!
If you have anymore verses that “support” preexistence, I would love to hear them…
@ DesireTruth
The Hebrew text says
NOT SON OF THE GODS BUT SON OF GOD.I ASSUME THAT GOD HAS SENT HIS ANGEL TO SAVE DANIEL’S FRIENDS FROM THE FIRE FURNACE, BECAUSE THIS ANGEL MENTIONED BY NEBUCADNETSAR IS NOT MORE NOR LESS THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL HIMSELF WHOSE SATAN WRONGLY DENIES THE DIVINITY.
SO THE SON OF GOD IS THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL ALSO CALLED THE ANGEL OF THE LORD IN MANY PASSAGES OF OT.
SATAN WANTED TO DESTROY DANIEL’S FRIENDS, BUT BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBEATABLE FAITH, GOD HONORED THEM BY SENDING HIS SON TO PROTECT THEM FROM THE FIRE FURNACE.
Isa.43
[1] But now thus knows the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.
[2] When you pass through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: 👉when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.👈THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR BETWEEN CHRIST AND SATAN
OR MICHAEL AND THE GREAT DRAGON👇
Rev. 12
[7]And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.🙏
@ Berean,
You seriously need to run from your religion and search for real truth, your faith has been lying to you! The archangel Michael is NOT Jesus, this is a lie! You have yet to provide any real proof to this belief, you have provided zero scriptures that emphatically state this, all you have provided is your religious opinion.
You site Isa 43 as proof to them being in the furnace and but has nothing to do with them being in the furnace, did you read Isa 42 or 44-53? No you haven’t, you are simply parroting what you religious leader told you was truth. You have yet to verify anything I have written, NOT ONE THING!!! Yet you will discredit what I have told you because your religion told you to! **Sidetrack, you want to know who the “suffering servant” is in Isa 53, start in 42 and tell me again who the “servant” is in 53!**
You want your world flipped upside down, read I Corinthians 15:3,4. What I want to you do next is find me the scriptures that state the Messiah was to die for our sins AND that he was to be raised up on the third day!!!! “AS IT WAS WRITTEN” means it is written in the old testament. Maybe you can find them, I haven’t yet. I’m so tired!
Hi Jodi and Co.
You: NO, I do not believe that the Son of Man existed literally in the heavens and then came down to earth to be our savior.
You can believe what you want, THAT’S YOUR PIGEON!
I have something for ALL OF YOU hereunder ENJOY:
https://www.randomgroovybiblefacts.com/davids-son-is-his-lord.html
by Jeremy Chance Springfield
Days before Yeshua’s crucifixion, He taught His people and interacted with them in different settings and with different subjects. One particular discussion that He had with them stands out as significant, for He poses the same basic question at two different times, and the details reveal how masterful was His understanding of a situation and the perceptions of men.
In Matthew 22:41-46, we read about this event: (KJV)
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].
Again, in Mark 12:35-37, a similar event: (KJV)
And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he [then] his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
Finally, we read in Luke 20:41-44 the same: (KJV)
And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David’s son? And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?
If you pay careful attention to the details in these three passages, you will notice that Mark and Luke are recording the same event, and that Matthew is actually a separate event from the other two.
The passages from Mark and Luke are in the presence of scribes –those men who were responsible for copying the Law of the Holy One. These scribes were usually of a Levitical family, and thus, were normally of the sect of the Sadducees.
The passage out of Matthew is directed exclusively to the Pharisees, who were a sect comprised of laymen, who had no ties to the Levitical families. These two sects were typically opposed in certain key doctrinal points.
If you notice, however, the Messiah poses a question to both groups – the same basic question, referring to the same verse of Scripture out of the book of Psalms, chapter 110, verse 1, which reads:
[A Psalm of David.] (KJV)
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
The passage Messiah quotes is done so in order to trip up the scribes and the Pharisees and their faulty perceptions of who the Messiah really was. However, He uses this same passage in two different ways. Look first at the situation with the scribes. The scribes and those of Sadducean persuasion normally read Scripture and understood it in a very “shallow” level. They did not believe in the spirit world, that is, in angels, demons, or an afterlife of any degree. They believed in the Holy One alone as inhabiting the world beyond flesh.
Therefore, Messiah’s question that He posed to them, after they refused to answer Him any further, backs them into a corner theologically from which they cannot get free. Not only has He shut them up already by previous words, He seals their doom in the eyes of anyone else listening by bringing up this verse and a question that He answers Himself, that is obvious to anyone who really thinks about it.
How can the promised Messiah, for whom all Jewish people await, be called, “David’s son,” if David, in the verse from Psalms, instead calls him, “my Lord?” It is understood that a man’s son could never be his “lord” / “master.” That is not how the whole respect game goes.
Biblical respect is paid to one’s progenitors, not the progenitor’s paying respect to the descendants. In Hebrew thought and culture, this is just not something that could be–especially to a scribe or Sadducee.
So for David to call his descendant the Messiah, “my Lord” is a HUGE issue in a scribe’s thought.
This entails that the Messiah must be something more than just a man. He has to have something that David did not, for David to pay such high respect to him. To even begin to consent to such an idea would have been heresy to a scribe or Sadducee.
Thus, we see that the Messiah masterfully showed them that not only did He know exactly what He was talking about when they questioned Him, but that through His questioning of them, they had no idea what they were talking about when it came to the subject of the Messiah! Their perceptions were far off the mark.
That said, consider again finally the second instance of the posing of this same question to the Pharisees in the book of Matthew. In this situation, Yeshua does not ask and answer His own question, but asks it and allows them the opportunity to answer, and only then asks one more question that drops a similar theological bomb on their understanding.
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions]. (KJV)
Some details need to be understood here to clarify why He interacts differently with the Pharisees than He did with the Sadducees. The Pharisees firmly believed in the spirit world, in the existence of the soul, of angels, demons, and an afterlife. They had no hang-ups with such ideas. The Pharisees believed that the Messiah would be the “Redeemer,” filled with the Spirit of the Holy One. It was not a heretical thought to them to think that the final king in David’s line would be paid greater respect if He was endowed with spiritual favour from on High. Therefore, with the posing of this same question, why would they not be able to answer Yeshua, and why would they not want to discuss anything else with Him?
What’s going on here?
Honestly, there is no answer to this problem of the Pharisees being baffled when one is reading a translation from the Greek New Testament manuscripts. It cannot be answered from that side of things. However, if one turns to the ancient Aramaic New Testament called the Peshitta text, a surprising subtle difference is preserved in Messiah’s language at this passage alone that explains exactly why they could not answer Him and why they refused to discuss matters with Him anymore.
Following is the passage from Matthew as translated from the Aramaic:
Yet, while the Pharisees were gathered, Yeshua asked them, and said, “What do you say concerning the Messiah? Whose son is he?” They said to Him, “The son of David.” He said to them, “How does David, by the Spirit, call him ‘MarYa?’ for he said, ‘MarYa said to my Master, “Sit yourself at My right until your enemies I place under your feet.” ’ If, therefore, David called him ‘MarYa,’ how is he his son?”
I must point out that the term “MarYa” is a compound Aramaic word literally meaning “Master Yah.” In the Aramaic translation of the ancient Hebrew Scriptures, it was used repeatedly to reference YHWH – the LORD in English translations. The term is equal to the Biblical Hebrew of ADON YHWH, that is, “Master YHWH,” or what typical English versions translate somewhat erroneously as “the Lord GOD” – erroneously in that “God” / ELOHIM is not even present in the Hebrew being translated. The Aramaic MARYA is therefore a phonetic form of Yah found only in Aramaic names containing the Divine Name YAH or YAHU as the suffix, such as EliYa for the prophet Elijah / EliYah. In this case, it is added to MAR (Master / Lord)
to show the supreme Deity of YHWH.
With that understanding from the Aramaic, do you see what Yeshua has done in this instance? He has asked the same question that He asked the scribes, but He then puts a different spin on it, by inferring that the “MarYa” spoken of in the verse is the “Son of David!”
Essentially, He turns the entire presumption upside-down on the heads of the Pharisees, as they answered the question with absolutely no issue with anything He had said, but then with the second question, Messiah throws a massive curve-ball at them. They weren’t expecting this novel way of interpreting Psalm 110.
He makes the identity of YHWH being the “Son of David,” not “my Lord,” as He had allowed with the scribes.
The reason He did this is that the Pharisees understood from various verses that the Messiah would have the same Name as the Holy One – YHWH. The long-standing tradition of Messiah sharing the spiritual Name YHWH has been preserved in many ancient Jewish texts, although it is not something that is openly discussed in modern Judaism, due to how closely it aligns with mainstream Christian doctrines. To give an example of the ancient Jewish view of this topic, some of the traditional sources are the following:
Rab Huna counted amongst the seven names of Messiah also:
YWHW Zidenko(THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS) Midrash Mishle 10:21
What is the name of the Messiah? Rav Ava ben Kahnna said “
YHWH IS HIS NAM” Midrash on lamentations 1:16
In the futre, the Holy One, blessed be He, will seat Messiah in the supernal house of study, and they will call him
“YHWH” JUST AS THEY CALL THE CREATOR. Midrash Geulah
God will call the king Messiah after His own name, for it is said the
King Messiah “this is his name wherby he shall be called:
YHWH our righteousness.” Midrash Tehillim 21:12
They understood that it was technically allowed, but they didn’t “get it.”
They didn’t understand at all the unity of the Messiah and the Father.
A man endowed with the Holy Spirit is one thing – that they could handle no problem.
But they weren’t even considering the possibility of a truly UNIQUE MAN who possessed a special portion of the authority of the Father, to the point of being called
‘MarYa.’
When they realized what He had done, they had no way to speak against Him. It was a radical interpretation that He had proposed, and yet one that they could not, under any manner, even begin to refute!
The sheer brilliance of the Messiah’s execution of this situation cannot be underplayed: He dealt with both of the main opposing religious groups at two separate times, using the exact same verse, and blew their minds in two different ways, yet backed them into the same theological corner with the same conclusion:
Messiah is FAR MORE than just a man or a rabbi of our religion –
He is a man who carries the authority of the Holy One of Israel!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel……..my “ROOT” is from the Balthrop family line, and I am the “OFFSPRING ” OF ANDREW . THERE IS NO “MYSTERY” THERE.
The only ones trying to make it all a mystery, is you false teachers here.king David was from the “root” of Jesse, so was Jesus, from that “root” of Jesse, but still the “OFFSPRING ” OF DAVID. SIMPLE as that ,no need for a “mystery” religious spin you false teachers put on it, as you do so many other things.
peace and love to you and yours Carmel………..gene
Berean……You believe Jesus is Michael the “ark Angel” right?. Then he will not have part in the kingdom to come, why? , because scripture says so.
Scripture says (not me). , …>“for unto the angels has he (God) not put in subjection the world to come, where of we speak”….Heb 2;5.
Seems you need to start questioning some of your churches false teachings if you ask me.
peace and love to you and yours Berean……….gene
You: Which KJ translation do you use – 1611, 1769, or newer?
Me: You are misleading.
There are six EDITIONS of the KJV, but it has
never been revised.
The difference between a revision and an edition…A
revision is where you go into the TEXT and change the text.
In an EDITION, you don’t change the text.
There has NOT been a revision of the KJV since 1611!
A revision is what you have in the RSV, NIV, ASV, where there are
over 60,000 changes to the TEXT itself!@ Danny,
Honestly, don’t really care what bible anyone uses, there are issues in all of them; I access at least 60 different ones when I study, including the KJ. That wasn’t the main point I was speaking on.
The new testament is God’s “inspired Word”, so there should be ZERO confusion to what is written and should be easily understood by all. Yet, here we are going back and forth, debating whose religion has the correct understanding. Tell me why there is continual arguing over what is written within the pages of the new testament if it’s “inspired” by God?
Hi Gene,
You: Carmel……..my “ROOT” is from the Balthrop family line, and I am the “OFFSPRING ” OF ANDREW .
THERE IS NO “MYSTERY” THERE.
Me: We are not discussing you and your family line!
A MERE HUMAN!
WE ARE DISCUSSING GOD’S MYSTERIES AND HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON JESUS!
You: The only ones trying to make it all a mystery, is you false teachers here.
SCRIPTURE:
I AM THE ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING OF DAVID!
DID YOU GET IT? NO, YOU SIMPLY DON’T I’M AFRAID! I MAKE IT CLEAR TO YOU!
Me: Gene, BY READING THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE,
IT IS EVIDENTLY CLEAR THAT IT IS MORE THAN A MYSTERY TO YOU!
(A) BALTHROP IS
(B) THE ROOT OF YOUR FAMILY LINE!
(C) YOU ARE
(D)THE OFFSPRING OF
(E) ANDREW.
OK Gene,
NOW JESUS IS BOTH
THE ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING
YOU ARE NOT THE ROOT, BALTHROP IS!
You: king David was from the “root” of Jesse,
so was Jesus, from that “root” of Jesse,
but still the “OFFSPRING ” OF DAVID.
SIMPLE as that ,
HA!, HA!, HA!
NO Gene, FOR GOD’S SAKE, JESUS WAS NOT FROM THE ROOT OF JESSE!
JESUS SAID:
I AM THE ROOT!
JESUS IS THE ROOT ITSELF!
PREEXISTED,
BEFORE JESSE AND DAVID WERE IN EXISTENCE!
THE BEGINNING, THE LIFE,
AS MUCH AS THE ROOT IS THE BEGINNING AND THE LIFE OF TREES AND HERBS AND COUNTLESS OFFSPRING OF THE GARDEN AND PLAIN
You: no need for a “mystery”
religious spin you false teachers put on it, as you do so many other things.
YES, MORE THAN A MYSTERY!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
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