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Hi Adam, you never explained to me how you think the Christian movement came to be if Jesus isn’t the promised messiah.
Hi Mike, thanks for your post to me on Jesus’ Messiahship. The first thing comes to my mind, why Jesus Messiahship was required for Christian movement? Messiahship is the theme of Judaism than Christian one. In fact the NT writers tried hard to place Jesus in the position of (Hebrew) Jewish Messiah. When I go through various Christian Forums I see they are concentrated much on his divinity than Messiahship. Please see the difference, Jesus Messiahship is outdated topic when compared to his divinity.
So I feel Jesus Messiahship was not required for Christian movement but it was required for winning a Jew for Christianity. You can find this struggle in the NT writings but it could not succeed and the Christian movement became that of Gentiles.
1. Jesus lied and said he was someone he was not.
2. A bunch of other people joined him in his intent to deceive God’s chosen people.
3. Hundreds or thousands of others helped the deception by making up stories of how they were healed.
4. Many thousands were willingly tormented, tortured and killed to keep up the deception.
5. The lie eventually spread throughout the world to billions of people.
Sorry I am not here to make anyone liar forget about Jesus. Rapid spread of religion is not unique to Christianity when we look at Islam as that is the fast growing religion today.
That’s the tip of the iceberg of things you must believe to reject Jesus as the promised messiah. Do you believe these things?
I don’t think Jesus’ Messiahship is required for Christianity as it is for Judaism. So there is no question of rejection of Jesus’ Messiahship.
Please don’t mistake me as I am sceptical about various claims of the Christianity and the New Testament. I am only comparing the greatest claims of the NT writers and Christianity with the Hebrew Bible as it was the primary source for those claims.
Thank you…..
Hi Mike,
There are many sons of God, I agree, but
Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God (John 3:16; 1 John 4:9)I listed some things that would have had to happen for billions of people to believe that Jesus was the messiah prophesied about in the OT. Among them…
1. Jesus lied and said he was someone he was not.
2. A bunch of other people joined him in his intent to deceive God’s chosen people.
3. Hundreds or thousands of others helped the deception by making up stories of how they were healed.
4. Many thousands were willingly tormented, tortured and killed to keep up the deception.
5. The lie eventually spread throughout the world to billions of people.
I asked you if you believe this is what happened. If not, then please tell us how you believe it happened. Let’s start with the first one…
- Jesus lied and said he was someone he was not.
Do you believe there existed a man named Jesus of Nazareth at all? Yes or No? If so, do you believe this man set out to deceive the nation of Israel by claiming to be the Messiah when he wasn’t? Yes or No?
(I’m trying to get a feel for how you think billions of people came to believe a complete lie… step by step. I’m asking for your opinion on how this was accomplished.)
What was the first step of this grand deception, in your opinion? Did Jesus actually exist? Or did people just start writing false stories about a fictional character?
What say you?
Danny: There are many sons of God, I agree, but
Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God (John 3:16; 1 John 4:9)1 John 5:1… Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been begotten of God…
Okay, so now we know that Jesus is NOT literally the only begotten son of God, right? These are the questions I asked…
1. Danny, are those who believe Jesus is the Christ literal sons of God because they are begotten of God?
2. Are those who are begotten of God not creations of God because they are begotten of God?
Please directly answer the questions. Thanks.
I listed some things that would have had to happen for billions of people to believe that Jesus was the messiah prophesied about in the OT.
Again you are coming to the same point of proving Jesus’ Messiahship. I am not the write person to prove that. I am only seeing things of the NT with reference its primary source Hebrew Bible and we are debating on those Christian claims of Jesus’ Messiahship with reference to Hebrew Bible.
I asked you if you believe this is what happened. If not, then please tell us how you believe it happened. Let’s start with the first one…
Jesus lied and said he was someone he was not.
I don’t think Jesus lied anything. What we have in the NT is what others thought about him.
Do you believe there existed a man named Jesus of Nazareth at all? Yes or No? If so, do you believe this man set out to deceive the nation of Israel by claiming to be the Messiah when he wasn’t? Yes or No?
Again it is an historical question. It doesn’t depend on my belief. I am not going to question about the historicity of Jesus. Coming to deceiving the nation of Israel, I am not the right person to comment. It pertains to particular people.
What was the first step of this grand deception, in your opinion? Did Jesus actually exist? Or did people just start writing false stories about a fictional character?
A deception can be anything which harms the concerned. But I am not pointing on any deception here. Jesus’ existence is again questioned here.
Coming to the claim of billions accepting Christianity, I have already answered with an example of Islam.
Adam, you’re deflecting – which tells me you have no leg to stand on here.
Either Jesus was real and told people lies that they believed, or people made up stuff about someone named Jesus (who was either real or a fictional character) and wrote that stuff down.
It has to be one or the other, right? So let’s take John for example, since he’s the one you’re always complaining about.
Did John make up a fictional character who did miracles? Or was this “Jesus” in John’s writings a real person that John knew?
Which one do you think?
Adam, I reject your Islam scapegoat, because you have the same problem with that religion. It didn’t just appear out of nowhere, right? So you either have to accept that there was a man named Mohammed or not. You have to either accept that he was a prophet of God or not. You have to either accept that people just made this prophet up and attributed quotes to him or not.
Islam isn’t going to save you, so let’s just stick to Christianity. Forget about the billions of people for now. Just answer my last questions about the first one or two people, John and Jesus.
Is it just me, or does anybody else get a notification that “jammin” has responded to you any time either Adam or Carmel post something here?
You guys remember jammin from the old days, right?
Adam, are you the person who used to post here as “jammin”?
Carmel, are you the person who used to post here as “jammin”?
Are Carmel and Adam and jammin all the same person? 🤔😳
Mike……That’s happening to me also. Maybe Proclaimer can figure this out?
Proclaimer, if you can figure this out let us know OK?
peace and love to you all…..gene
Thanks Gene. It only happens when either Carmel or Adam post. That leads me to wonder if Adam, Carmel, and jammin are all the same person. What a trip that would be, huh?
Could you imagine Adam and Carmel being the same person? I sure hope not, since that would be a very deceitful thing to do to the rest of us.
Mike….I believe Adam, is indeed Adam only , I think he has wondered into some serious doubt, about his Faith. But I think his Faith will be restored in the end brother.
peace and love to you and yours……….gene
If Jesus is not God from God, he cannot create anything, save anything, judge anything, ….
This statement is pure human reasoning.
First off, he didn’t create anything. God created all things THROUGH him.
Second, if God gives him the power to judge or save then he can do that.Joseph was given all power by the pharaoh, but that did not include power over the pharaoh.
God delegates. Behind it all, it is still God.
Jesus is not God. He doesn’t have the final word on everything.
LU: Hi Danny
I believe the Son is the only begotten literal son of God. I have been saying that for 28+ years. Jesus is begotten, not created. A created son would not be a literal son.
Danny: Yes. I believe that too.
Berean: Angels who have never sinned are created beings and they are LITERAL SONS.
👍👍
All true.
And angels are spirit beings and God is a spirit.
But angels are not the Word of God.
No angel was the firstborn of all creation.
All things were made through the Word.
Common sense would tell you that the Word was not made through the Word.
Still, it is the truth. A man cannot save mankind.
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Jesus Christ as a man saved mankind.
Not all accept the free gift of salvation however.
Hi Mike,
ME: Now read again:
Rev 1:1… The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him…..
In the above PHRASE:
“WHICH GOD GAVE HIM” means
THE TITLE OF
THE GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST,
THE ONLY BEING EMPOWERED BOTH WITH
ALL GOD’S THINGS AND ALL HUMAN THINGS,
GODMAN!
GAVE HIM, JESUS CHRIST, ALL AUTHORITIES AND POWERS…..
YOU: My question was why Jesus, who was exalted to full power in heaven at the time, is still delivering messages from God. Understand?
ME: it seems to me that you either didn’t understand THE SCRIPTURE I POSTED, or I didn’t make it clear enough, so I try again: Read hereunder
THESE DIFFERENT WAYS OF GREETING ETC.
Romans 1:7 Grace to you, and peace from
GOD OUR FATHER, AND FROM THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be THE GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!
2Corinthians 13:14 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the charity of God, and the communication of the Holy Ghost be with you all. Amen.
Ephesians 1:17 That THE GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and of revelation, in the knowledge of him:
Ephesians 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees to THE FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.
Ephesians 6:23 Peace be to the brethren and charity with faith, from GOD THE FATHER, AND THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
Philipians1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace from GOD OUR FATHER, AND FROM THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
The article “THE” BEFORE GOD IN TWO OF THE ABOVE GREETINGS, IS DEFINITELY SENDING A MESSAGE!
DON’T TELL ME THAT
THE GOD AND FATHER OF……ISN’T DIFFERENT FROM
GOD THE FATHER OF…..
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Proclaimer: Jammin started this thread. So it sort of belongs to him / her.
This is what I see whenever Carmel or Adam post…
To me that says the reply on Thread X is from jammin – not that the thread itself is from jammin.
And it’s weird that I don’t get that notification when you, LU, Gene, Danny, or anyone else posts here. Only if Adam or Carmel post.
Did John make up a fictional character who did miracles? Or was this “Jesus” in John’s writings a real person that John knew?
Hi Mike, your questions are like those of C.S. Lewis “Was Jesus Lord or a Lunatic?
Sorry I am not going for your tricky questions.
We are debating on the nature of Jesus here. A Trinitarian claims he was a begotten God and a non-Trinitarian like you claim that he was a god or some preexisting angelic being. Myself , Gene and few others think that Jesus was a human just like you and me.
So ask your question properly and not on the tricky points like those of C.S. Lewis.
Is it just me, or does anybody else get a notification that “jammin” has responded to you any time either Adam or Carmel post something here?
You guys remember jammin from the old days, right?
Adam, are you the person who used to post here as “jammin”?
Carmel, are you the person who used to post here as “jammin”?
Are Carmel and Adam and jammin all the same person?
Hi Mike, it is your notification issue. I too get notification when anyone replies from the threads I opened like “Jewish Messiah” or “Question of Parousia of Jesus”
Don’t worry I am not going to Jammmm you.
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