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Proclaimer: How about it Mike.
David told us that the sun runs a circuit over the face of the earth, from one end of the heaven to the other. Was David lying to us? Yes or No?
Mike: Why would “God” give a revelation about coming events to “God”? Wouldn’t “God” already know about these things?
Carmel: I REPEAT IT FOR YOU:
WHY WOULD “GOD” …………
THAT WILL DO Mike,
CAN YOU SEE MY DOCTRINE, Mike?
Odd response. Okay, now just answer the question for real. Thanks.
Carmel: EXPLAIN PLEASE HOW YOU DETERMINE SOMETHING TRUE ON THIS PLANET!
Explain please about this “planet” thing of which you speak. Where can I read about it in the scriptures? How did you determine the truth about it?
Proclaimer: But God and god in English doesn’t really work because we think big God and little or false god so now you have two or more Gods / gods.
You get so close every time, but then fizzle out for personal reasons. You told me that you refuse to speak the scriptural truth that Jesus is a god because you believe it will cause others to stumble. You are right there in the category of people that Origen described in the statement you recently quoted…
Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos (gods), and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked.
That seems to be what has happened to you. Your fear of proclaiming two gods puts you in a position of tip-toeing around the truth to appease others. Well I have news for you… you are doing them a disservice by withholding scriptural truth and reality.
The undeniable fact of scripture is that there exist MANY gods, both in heaven and on earth, but only one Most High God who is the God of all those other gods, and who created all those other gods. Jesus is one of those other gods. He is the only begotten god who was created as the first of God’s works. That firstborn status places him higher than the gods who were created after him, but he remains the same kind of god that they (Dagon, Michael, Molek, Gabriel, Ashteroth, Satan, etc) are.
You think you are helping people by running circles around this scriptural fact. You’re hurting them. Best to tell it like it truly is, and let the chips fall where they will. Because let’s face it, if you have to LIE to people to keep them from turning from the Bible, then you have actually directed them to a false reality that has no relation to the Bible anyway.
Berean: We still have to agree on what “God in nature” means ….. because if in the end, we do not believe that Christ, the divine and unique SON OF GOD, BEGOTTEN IN ETERNITY, DOES NOT HAVE IN HIMSELF THE ATTRIBUTES OF HIS FATHER: OMNIPOTENCE, OMNIPRESENCE, OMNISCIENCE, HE IS NOT THEN THE OWN SON OF GOD DESCRIBED IN HEBREWS 1: 3
…. Who being THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS GLORY, and THE EXPRESS IMAGE IF HIS PERSONAND HE CANNOT
(CONTINUATION OF THE VERSE:)…. uphold all things by the word of his power, ….
First of all, please show me where I can read about the “BEGOTTEN IN ETERNITY” part in the scriptures. Nevermind… you can’t because it’s not in the scriptures. So let’s just eliminate that part of your argument.
As for your irrational idea that God’s spirit sons (or any particular one of them) must have omnipotence, omnipresence, and be omniscient, consider…
That is Hulk Hogan and his offspring. As the offspring of a human being, she is equally human. She likely even has many qualities of the one who begot her. But being Hogan’s offspring doesn’t mean she is automatically as strong as him, and can pick up grown men and throw them across the room. So you need to drop the idea that Jesus MUST be absolutely everything his own Father is. It’s nonsense.
As for the last part of your post, I keep telling you that Jesus has exactly the amount of power that his and our God, YHWH, has given him. No more and no less. Yet another example of this…
Mark 12:35-37… While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, He asked, “How can the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? Speaking by the Holy Spirit, David himself declared: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand until I put Your enemies under Your feet.”’ David himself calls Him ‘Lord.’ So how can He be David’s son?”
Surely you realize that this is Jesus talking about himself, right? He is the one that David spoke about in the psalm, right? So my question to you: If being born of God automatically makes you omnipotent, then why on earth would God have to put your enemies under your feet so that you can destroy them? You’d already be omnipotent, and could easily destroy them by yourself, right? You wouldn’t need your God to first put them under your feet, right?
Please reconcile this scriptural truth (also 1 Cor 15:24-28) with your irrational idea that any particular son of God must automatically be omnipotent. Please reconcile the fact that Jesus needs his God to put his enemies at his feet before he can destroy them with your idea of what Heb 1:3 means.
I’m most anxious to hear the results of your contemplation.
LU: That which is begotten of the eternal One is part of the family of YHVH and is every bit a YHVH as the eternal One that begat Him.
Would you agree to that?
That which was begotten of Elvis Presley is part of the Presley family and is every bit a Presley as Elvis. Makes sense?
So now “YHVH” is God’s last name? How about we try your analogy with someone who goes by only one name, like Cher or Madonna… or Jesus?
Would you agree that anyone begotten by Jesus is every bit a Jesus as the Jesus who begat him? 😉
Is everyone begotten by Elvis Presley every bit an Elvis Presley as the Elvis Presley who begat them? No. And since Jehovah and Jesus both went by single names (the equivalent of Elvis and Presley put together), your analogy fails.
It also fails because YHVH is a name, not a species. God’s “species” is “spirit entity”. So yes, Jesus is every bit a spirit entity as the spirit entity who brought him forth into existence.
And finally, it fails because YHVH is the name of God, not the name of His holy servant – whose name is Jesus.
Hi Mike,
You said that Jesus was created.
You are wrong.
Jesus was not created but begotten.
He is in fact the only begotten Son of the Father, and as such,
He has the same essential nature as His Father.
This means that Jesus is also deity—God.Gene: we are begotten of God… according to… 1 John 5:18
Well done, Gene.
1 John 5 American Standard Version
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.4 For whosoever is begotten of God overcometh the world…
18 We know that whosoever is begotten of God sinneth not; but he that was begotten of God keepeth himself, and the evil one toucheth him not.
Oh my… it turns out that those of us who accept Jesus as the christ (anointed one) of God are just as much begotten of God as Jesus is!
So Kathi, am I every bit a YHVH as YHVH the Father now?
Berean, am I omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent now?
Mike
Michah 5:2 Say
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
The origin of Jesus thus goes back to the times of eternity, and it is therefore BEFORE ANYTHING WAS CREATED THAT IT WAS BEGOTTEN BY THE FATHER. AND NOT CREATED.
Hebrew 1: 4.5
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?Paul to the Colossians wrote about the pre-existence of Jesus:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Not bad for a whip maker ….
Proclaimer: The word ‘theos’ was applied to judges after all.
The rest of your post to Danny was spot on. This part is erroneous. The word “god” in scripture is used of actual gods (spirit sons of the Most High God) and of idols that sometimes represented one of those actual gods, and other times were made by men who for some reason believed that inanimate objects could help them or save them, ie: Isaiah 44:6-23.
To my knowledge, no author of scripture called any man a god.
Mike……you mistranslated the text, it says this…..” whosoever is “born’” of God sins not, but whosoever is “begotten” of God “keeps” himself, and the evil one touches hm not.
This shows that being begotten of God, does not mean “BORN” of God >
Jesus was the first to be , begotten and born of God, from the human race, is the way I take it. I see Jesus just as we, first born of the human race and then begotten by God And then born again into the Kingdom God. Remember, “You must be “born” again ” Jesus told us, and he was also , begotten of God and then born again , the exact same process must happen to us also.
We are now being “begotten” but not yet “born” that happens at our resurrection. Then we are born into the kingdom of God, exactly the way Jesus was. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours ……….gene
Danny: Jesus and His Father are both deity not just divine.
Agreed. This is scriptural. Both Jesus and his Father are gods. One of them is the Most High God of gods, and the other is one of the gods that the first one is the God of.
Danny: I believe this is what John 1:1 teaches.
“what God was, the Word was”Agreed… to an extent. The Most High God is a god, and the logos is also a god. But consider that Bill Gates is a man and the creator of Microsoft. I am a man but not the creator of Microsoft. So what Bill Gates is, I am also… to an extent. We are both men, but only one of us is the creator of Microsoft.
Likewise, Jehovah is a god and the creator of heaven, earth, and everything in them. Jesus is a god but not the creator of heaven, earth, and everything in them. So what God is, Jesus is also… to an extent. They are both gods, but only one of them is the creator of heaven, earth, and everything in them.
Danny: The terms “divinity” and “deity” can be confusing. In most cases the terms have identical meanings. However, some have used “divine” to refer to an angel, since it came from God.
The word “angel” isn’t even in the Bible. Both the Hebrew word “malak” and the Greek word “aggelos” simply mean “messenger”. The word “angel” is an English addition, and is used when the English translators assume that the “messenger” in question is a spirit entity. One example…
Hebrews 1:5
King James Bible
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?Young’s Literal Translation
For to which of the messengers said He ever, ‘My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?’The true translation is “messengers”, as that is what the Greek word literally means.
Danny: However, an angel would not be a deity, since it is not by its nature God.
You didn’t learn this from scripture. You learned it from men who teach things contrary to scripture. Angels are most certainly gods. Any spirit son of the Most High God is a god according to scripture. According to erroneous men, there is only one god in scripture and in Hebrew culture. According to scripture, there are myriads upon myriads of gods – and only one Most High God who is the God of all the other gods. You should put aside the flawed ideas you’ve learned from men, and let the scriptures be your only guide to the truth of the matter. One clear example…
Judges 13:21-22 NET Bible
The LORD’s messenger did not appear again to Manoah and his wife. After all this happened Manoah realized that the visitor had been the LORD’s messenger. Manoah said to his wife, “We will certainly die, because we have seen a supernatural being!”
The Hebrew word translated “a supernatural being” in the NET is “elohim”, ie: a god. See? Manoah had seen an angel, and said he had seen a god. That’s because spirit messengers of Jehovah (“angels”) are all gods. Every last one of them… including Jesus – who is called the Word of God because he is God’s preeminent messenger.
LU: I believe the following is correct:
The Son is theos
The Son is god
The Father and the Son are theos
The Father and the Son are god.
The Father is not the Son.
Two persons are theos.
Two persons are god.
There is one god.
Two persons act together as one god.
All scriptural except for the last utterly confusing bolded part. Paul said there are many gods and many lords, and that Satan is the god of this world. Can you refute Paul? Jehovah called Satan, Molek, Ashteroth and Chemosh gods (using the plural “elohim” no less). Can you refute Jehovah?
If not, then please accept that your belief is unscriptural, and stop believing/teaching it.
Proclaimer: He was born not created.
If a living thing is born, isn’t it also a new creation that didn’t exist before it was born? Can you think of an exception? Now, let’s examine three scriptures…
Col 1:15… He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
Is it even remotely possible that this verse means exactly what it sounds like it means: That Jesus was the first creature ever brought forth into existence by God? Yes or No?
Rev 3:14… And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God…
Is it even remotely possible that this verse means exactly what it sounds like it means: That Jesus was the first creature ever brought forth into existence by God? Yes or No?
Prov 8:22… The LORD created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago.
Is it even remotely possible that this verse means exactly what it sounds like it means: That Jesus was the first creature ever brought forth into existence by God? Yes or No?
Proclaimer: God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.
Clearly he wasn’t created through himself.
Correct. Clearly we are to understand that both Jesus and God are excluded from the “all things” that were created through Jesus.
Acts 4:24… When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
Likewise, we are to understand that God (but not Jesus) is excluded in the “everything” that was created by God.
1 Cor 15:27… For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
In that one, Paul even spells out what most of us would understand on our own. So let’s lay it out…
1. God created EVERYTHING in heaven and earth. This would exclude God (who didn’t create Himself), but it would not exclude Jesus (God’s first creation).
2. God created EVERYTHING through Jesus. This would exclude God (who didn’t create Himself through Jesus) and also Jesus (who wasn’t created by God through himself).
Hi Mike,
YOU: After all, even your “GODMAN” said, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing”, right?
John 17:1…. Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.
John17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth;
I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now glorify thou me, O Father, with thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world was, with thee.
John5:41 I receive glory not from men.
44 How can you believe, who receive glory one from another: and the glory which is from God alone, you do not seek?
Mike, Can you see from the above scriptures what Jesus meant?
The Father and the Son never glorify themselves,
But each other.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Berean, watch how easily I use the scriptures themselves (or the LACK of scriptures) to address everything you say.
Berean: For you Mike, Christ is an angel, a god…
According to the scriptures themselves, what is an “angel”? It is a spirit messenger of God.
Rev 1:1… The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Was Jesus a spirit being in heaven when John wrote this? Yes – according to scripture, because flesh cannot enter, see, or inherit God’s kingdom. Was Jesus – as a spirit entity – delivering messages from God? Yes. Therefore, according to the very definition of “angel” (spirit messenger of God), Jesus is an angel of God.
Are spirit sons of God themselves gods? Yes – according to many scriptures.
Berean: …but not really THE OWN SON OF GOD…
That is a false claim. The scriptures tell me that Jesus is the Son of God, and I believe that.
Berean: WHO ACCORDING TO THE HEBREWS 1: 3 IS: , ….the brightness of his glory, (Glory OF God the Father) and the express image of his person
I also believe that, because it is scriptural. Berean, go outside and look at the sun’s reflection in a car window. Are you seeing the brightness of the sun? Are you seeing the exact representation of the sun? Yep. Does that mean the image in the car window is the sun itself? Nope.
Berean: This means (to me) that the Son WAS IN THE BEGINNING WHAT THE FATHER IS SPIRITUALLY AND IN THE NATURE OF HIS SUBSTANTIAL BEING. THUS, THE SON IS GOD IN INFINITY…
You cannot show me these beliefs in the scriptures themselves, and therefore there is no reason for me (or you) to believe them in the first place.
Berean: BUT NOT IN PERSONALITY. HE IS NOT THE ALMIGHTY GOD, HE IS THE DIVINE SON OF GOD…
This is scriptural, and so I believe it.
Berean: …WHO IN THE BEGINNING WAS “GOD” AND WITH, FOR GOD, IN HARMONY WITH THE ALIVE AND ALMIGHTY GOD AND WHO WAS MADE FLESH AND LIVED AMONG US FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH ……
All of this is according to scripture – except the “WAS GOD” part. You only need the tiniest speck of common sense to know that if the logos was WITH God in the beginning, the logos couldn’t possibly BE the very God he was WITH – which means he has no choice but to be a DIFFERENT god than the one he was WITH. The scriptural truth is that the logos was a god who was with THE God in the beginning.
Berean: …for you Christ created only one whip…
That is the only thing in scripture that Jesus is ever credited with “creating”. Actually it says he “fashioned” a whip out of cords. There is absolutely no other scripture that ever even hints at Jesus creating a single thing. There are, however, scriptures that tell us that God created all things, and that He did that through His first creation, Jesus.
Berean: …for me Christ is the creator of the universe by the will of the Father.
This is the first lesson you must learn, because if Christ “THE WORD” is not the creator of the universe, he cannot BE THE SAVIOR …This is unscriptural. God created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them. Jesus is part of the EVERYTHING in them that God created. But even though there is nothing saying that the only one who could save mankind has to be the one who created everything, that does happen to be the case anyway. Because God, who saved us through the sacrifice of His own Son (and through many other saviors He sent many other times), is our ultimate Savior.
Now… I’d love for you to either show me the scriptural support for the things you claim that I said weren’t in the scriptures – and scripturally refute anything that I said was in the scriptures.
You’ll see that you cannot. Do you know why? Because my understanding is based on what the scriptures actually teach, while some of yours is not.
Danny: Hi LU,
You asked:
Danny and Berean,
The three of us are agreeing on both the Father and Son being deity and identified as YHVH, correct?I agree.
Wait… did the Kathi Cult finally get a bonafide follower here – after over a decade of continually changing her doctrine as she was shown the scriptural errors in it? Wow.
Hey Danny, Gods name is YHWH, not Jesus. God’s firstborn Son’s name is Jesus, not YHWH. Best to learn from the scriptures instead of Kathi. The written word of God remains settled… unlike Kathi’s ever-changing doctrine.
God the Father who has always existed IS FOR US HUMAN A MYSTERY. BY FAITH WE CAN ACCEPT WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING.
THAT THE SON OF GOD BORN IN THE DAYS OF ETERNITY BE WHAT THE FATHER IS WHEN IN SPIRITUALITY: WE CAN UNDERSTAND IT. BUT WHAT THE SON WAS IN THE BEGINNING WHAT THE FATHER WAS WHEN IN NATURE (hupostasis) ONE CANNOT UNDERSTAND IT, IT IS ALSO A MYSTERY; AS IS THE INCARNATION WHICH IS THE DEEPEST MYSTERY: A MEMBER OF THE DIVINITY WHO COMES WITHOUT REPUTATION TO TAKE OVER OUR HUMANITY (Philippians 2) TO DIE FOR US BY LOVE, WE CAN BELEIVE…AND EXPERIMENT.2 Timothy 2:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD (the divine Son of God) WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Hi Mike,
Acts 4:24… When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said,
“You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
Mike, you: Likewise, we are to understand that God (but not Jesus) is excluded in the “everything” that was created by God.
Proverbs 8:22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways,
before he made anything from the beginning.
23I was set up from eternity,
and of old before the earth was made.
30 I was with him forming all things:
and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;
Peace and Love in Jesus Christ
LU: Danny and Berean,
The three of us are agreeing on both the Father and Son being deity and identified as YHVH, correct?
Berean: Hi LU
YES!
Uh oh… two in one day? Yikes.
Berean: MY FAVORIT TEXTE FOR THE SON AS YHVH IS FROM PSALM 24
Psalm 24:1…Jehovah owns the earth and all it contains, the world and all who live in it.
I can see in verse 1 that YHWH owns the world and all who live in it. That would include Jesus as one of those Jehovah owns.
Psalm 24:2… For he set its foundation upon the seas, and established upon the waters.
In verse 2 I can see another wonderful description of our flat earth that sits upon foundational pillars that God placed on the waters below, otherwise known as the Great Deep. And if I look at the NET translators’ notes, I can see that they once again try to apologize for the lack of understanding the ignorant goat herders who wrote the Bible had concerning the true nature of the earth… “The description reflects ancient Israelite prescientific cosmology, which is based on outward appearances.”
Actually, their description is based on the way God Himself described the world He created for them. Of course Proclaimer will jump right on board and be the first to echo the sentiments of these translators – apparently oblivious to the fact that if we can’t count on the writers of scripture to be accurate concerning the world God said He created, then how could we possibly count on them to be accurate about anything else they wrote down?
Berean, after going through the entire psalm, I wasn’t able to find anything that would lead anyone to believe the “King of Glory” was Jesus. What led you to believe such a thing?
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