Firstborn of/over all creation

This topic contains 3,675 replies, has 33 voices, and was last updated by  Jodi 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #829883
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Anthony. ..I thought you knew what the Gnostics taught, no they did not believe Jesus was adopted, as you supose the did, they believed as i said JESUS WAS ALREADY A GOD, SENT FROM THE PLORA OF THE GOD’S, that was the very reason John called them ANTICHRIST’S, they did not believe Jesus came into his existence in the flesh, same as you, right?

    IF YOU HAD REALLY READ HE TEACHINGS OF THE GNOSTIC’S, AS YOU WOULD HAVE US BELIEVE, YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT. SCRIPTURE does teach Jesus was EMPOWERED FROM ON HIGH (AFTER) HE WAS BAPTIZED., NOT A SINGLE MIRACLE WAS DONE TILL AFTER HE WAS BAPTIZED AND ANOINTED.

    IF YOU HAVE ANY, POST THEM please.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

    #829884
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    Jesus was not born with advantages over any other man.

    That fact gives all of us sinners hope.

     

    He was an overcomer(rev3), in the grace of God.

     

    #829886
     Anthony 
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    Hi Nick  by God the Father, they just had legal rights of adoption. That’s why Joseph at to be adopted by Heli, Marys Father the blood line goes through the male not the female. I think you’ll find the customs and the law of inhheritance in Lev.22 23 somewhere around there he had to go through Heli, because Mary couldn’t. The work was all done by Father God. Mary was a seragot mother this was for legal porpose the Father did all.

    #829887
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    Mary was a SURROGATE MOTHER?

    Any scriptures as you seem to have wandered from the path of truth??

    2 Jn 9

    Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

    He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

     

    Join the community of the Spirit, with the Father and the Son.

    #829889
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    Jn 2.3

    And when they wanted wine, the MOTHER OF JESUS saith unto him

    ’They have no wine’

    Jesus saith unto her

    ’Woman, what have I to do with thee? Mine hour is not yet come’

    HIS MOTHER saith unto the servants,

    ‘Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it’

    Jn 20.25

    Now there stood by the cross of Jesus HIS MOTHER, and HIS MOTHER’s sister, Mary, the wife of  Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

    When Jesus, therefre sawn HIS MOTHER,and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith to HIS MOTHER..

     

    Do you disagree with John?

    #829891
     Anthony 
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    Hi Jodi also the Son of Godthe Son of [the] God” in John 1:34.Evil spirits call Him theSon of [the] God” in Mark 3:11.Peter calls Him the Son of the living God” in Matthew 16:16. Nathaniel calls Him theSon of [the] God” in John 1:49.At a Jerusalem feast Jesus refers to the Son of[the] God,” meaning Himself in John 5:25.

    Many times the New Testament has simply the phrase “Son of God” without an article. Sometimes it is the Son of God.”Sometimes it is “Son of theGod.” Sometimes it is theSon of the God.” I have not worked through the significance to all of the meanings, but I bet they are precisely and intentionally used by God. The writers all knew what they were saying when they wrote these words. Let us look at John 5:25 more closely:

    “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    For as the Father has life in himself; so has he given to the Son to have life in himselfAnd has given him [the Son] authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.”John 5:25–27

    #829892
     Jodi 
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    Jeremiah 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
    3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
    5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

    Isaiah 11: 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

    2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

    4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

    Isaiah 9: 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

    Jeremiah 33: 14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

    15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

    16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

    17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; 18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. 19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying, 20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season; 21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.

    22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me. 23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

    25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; 26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

    Isaiah 66: 1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

    Isaiah 16: 5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

    Isaiah 22: 23 And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father’s house.

    1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith* all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 

    Jeremiah 17: 25 Then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: and this city shall remain for ever.

    Ezekiel 36: 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them

    Psams 89:1 I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations. 2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens. 3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, 4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

    Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;..16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. 17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
    And HOW was he born of this seed of David through Joseph, when Joseph had not united with Mary? By the Holy Spirit that’s how, as God tells Mary that NOTHING is impossible for God. Did folks who met Jesus assume that Joseph was his father through natural means, and not through the Holy Spirit, yes they did.

    Romans 9: 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

    Isaiah 42:9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. 10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.

    There is not a scripture that speaks of a promise of God bringing down an already existing son, what we have are AMPLE scriptures that God said BY HIS WORD that He would MAKE a son through the seed of David. 

    This is why we are to NOT DENY that Jesus came in the flesh, it is to not deny the promise that God made to David. It’s not about believing that a pre-existing son became flesh, but to believe that God fulfilled His promise.

    1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Before the foundation of the world God also promised eternal life, everything that God made was through a man that would one day bring eternal life.

     

    #829893
     Anthony 
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    Well anyways what your saying was  false with the Gnostics and Jewish Christian.a d (Jodi look in to ESV translation. They take away  from the scripture .) I’ll think upon all this and study the scripture I have a open mind  if I’m wrong that’s ok if God show me, even if it was a false teaching back in the day I’ll believe it pray for me. God bless. Bye I need to look in to these things to see if there so.

     

    #829894
     Jodi 
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    Yes of course he is also called the son of God Anthony, and we are told exactly WHY, but you seem to want to flat out deny this! The FACT that he is ALSO STILL called the son of man, as in reference to when he RETURNS to earth, should in and of itself make you question your pagan theology. He is returning as a MAN, who will be a master over his father’s house king David, and thus why it is said he is before Abraham, David and John. He is a Son of God because God’s Spirit dwells in him and causes him for an eternity to walk in God’s path, which keeps him immortal. 

    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest,

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    There is no righteousness without being born of water and of the Spirit, if you do not have righteousness you do not earn eternal life, of which you must have to entered God’s kingdom.

    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    And how was he manifested in these LAST times for us? By being BORN of water and of the Spirit.

    Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 

    1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    He that was foreordained and was later manifested is not a pre-existing son, but the SEED of DAVID, the Son that God begot on a certain day, which was at the river, when he was BORN of water and of the Spirit, and then AGAIN when he was resurrected becoming the firstborn of the dead.

    Psalms 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE. 

    Acts13: 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus AGAIN; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

    God our Heavenly Father IS LIFE, and He gives His Spirit so that we can walk in His ways and so His LIFE can be in us. This is why the seed of David said that the Father is in him, and he is in the Father.

     

     

    #829895
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    You cannot substitute CHRIST for JESUS.

    CHRIST speaks of the ANOINTING.

    Acts 10

    ‘..How JESUS OF NAZARETH was ANOINTED with the Holy Spirit and power… ‘

    So the embryo or the infant from Bethlehem was not yet anointed.

    The angels present at his birth spoke in prophetic terms.

     

     

    #829896
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    So when scripture speaks of the Israelites drinking from the Rock of Christ

    it is not speaking of the man but of the anointing Spirit.

    The man had yet to be conceived.

    #829897
     Jodi 
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    Hi Anthony,

    I greatly appreciate your candor, and like I said before, I get why you would think that certain scriptures do seem to sound like Jesus pre-existed. There is a lot of scriptures to review to make sure you are putting certain other passages into a truthful context.

    If you want to keep an open mind, then attempt to read every passage that speaks of the Son of God strictly as the man of the promise given to the prophets. Keep in mind that God had a plan from the beginning to bring humans into eternal life, and His purpose is to come down and dwell with the perfected humans, and enjoy His creation.

    I once had read from a source outside the bible about the curse you spoke of and then turned and read the passage they were speaking of, and then went back to trying to understand Matthew and Luke in light of that curse. For awhile I was confused and discouraged. Then reading more OT scripture I saw clearly that God did not remove His promise to David, as I recently posted, if God removed the day time and the night time, then we might believe that He would also take back His promise. He clearly did not remove day and night!!

     

    #829898
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Anthony,

    1 peter 1.9

    Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

    Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently,

    who prophesied of the grace that should come to you:

    searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them,

    did signify when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow.

     

    So the same Holy Spirit was in the prophets as is in Christ Jesus.

    The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy.

    The Spirit from eternity.

    #829903
     Lightenup 
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    Jodi,

    The reason that I don’t use a lot of words and a lot of verses is because we don’t agree on how is Jesus called a son in the foundational verses such as:

    Col 1:15.

    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    You use a different translation of that which is very different.

    I think the translation that you use is this:

    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Furthermore, you think the following verses are referring to the new creation and I think they apply to the original creation:

    For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him.

    So, in my understanding, Jesus is REALLY A SON of GOD in the fullest and purest sense.

    You seem to see Jesus as a created being who was designed by God as a do over for Adam, like let me try again with another man to see if he can do things right, unlike the first Adam who flubbed it up. Jesus to you is just another created son who got exalted, not a son begotten from God’s own self, and of the same type as His Father. A Son who directly created the things in heaven and on the earth in response to the Father’s will.

    If we don’t see eye to eye on that foundational truth, what is the point of moving past that. I believe you misinterpret the “Firstborn of all creation” and you add the word “new” to the creation that follows. I can’t really see the benefit of going further until we agree on how Jesus is a Son of God.

    I did have a thought that might help you reconsider your view though and I will share that with you.

    Do you recall Jehovah telling Abraham that he was going to be giving him a great reward. Abe didn’t know what Jehovah would give him since he had no son of his own and considered his head servant as the one who will be his heir? Then Jehovah told him, no, but that Abe would have a son that would come from his own body.

    Gen 15:11After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying,
    “Do not fear, Abram,
    I am a shield to you;
    Your reward shall be very great.”

    2Abram said, “O Lord GOD, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3And Abram said, “Since You have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir.” 4Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir.” 5And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

    There is the difference between the heir that you seem to understand Jesus to be like, i.e. not a natural son but instead the head servant, and the heir that I understand Jesus to be like, a natural son. Do you see how much more of a sacrifice it would be to kill your own son as opposed to your servant? God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. John 3:16

    “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    It doesn’t seem to me that you believe that God gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.

    I seems to me that you believe that God gave His top slave because He didn’t have a son of His own to give. You make Jesus a son by designation. I believe that the Son of God is truly, truly, truly, literally and in the purest and truest sense the Eternal Father’s one and only own offspring. Jesus is the very son of God who, although existed in the same form of His Father, did not consider His rightful place to be grasped and held on to, but instead, He emptied Himself of all necessary things, probably to include His memory for the time being, so that He could become a man. He who was rich became poor for our sakes. He became a little baby, with no memory of anything so as to not have advantage over other men.

    In conclusion, until we have the same foundation as to what kind of son he is, an appointed son, or a true son, we don’t need to waste each other’s time. We aren’t going to agree and there is not much fellowship or fruitfulness with our opposing views.

    #829904
     NickHassan 
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    Hi LU,

    Do you believe the man conceived of and in Mary was involved in creation?

    #829905
     Ed J 
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    Anothny….Here is just some of what Gnostic’s taugh, you speak as if you know there teachings, ok lets see.

    1….Jesus was a GOD, was who sent from the PLORA of the GOD’S………………………..do you?
    2….Jesus was only desguised as a human. But really was not just a human………………do you?
    3….They did not believe Jesus came into his “existence” as “just” a real human being…..do you?
    4….They taught Jesus did not need to be anointed by God, because he was born with it…..do you?

    Hi Gene, interesting points.

    But how can you decide anything without a “Free Will” ?

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #829906
     Ed J 
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    Hi Anthony,

    Does the preexistent one you call Jesus have a mother?

    Hi Nick,

    Does your spirit have a mother?

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #829907
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Ed,

    So a spirit preexisted and not a man?

    #829908
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Ed,

    So you think, from your personal interpretation of Micah 5.2, that the Spirit of Christ was born at Bethlehem.

    Not a man born of a woman and born under the law?

    Not much like us either.

    #829909
     Lightenup 
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    Nick,

    The heavenly Son was involved in creation, He was brought forth into the vessel which developed within Mary as a human baby.

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