John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,961 through 1,980 (of 26,008 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #111844
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    Does scripture calling Jesus GOD confuse you?
    Surely not a man of such great knowledge as you told us.
    You really should align with the Lord Jesus and worship his God.

    #111851
    charity
    Participant

    Seriously the gospel of Johns IS a bad companion, and eventually will Make fools of many
    -charity

    #111852
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Ummm You are right Charity John's Gospel is the most misunderstood Gospel in whole N.T.

    #111854
    charity
    Participant

    I feel the writer has projected much Hate and rejection throughout generations.
    I first noticed that Most of the verses that are hurled at people in retaliation were coming from the gospel John

    eg…
    your father is the father of Lies, because you don't interpret the same as I.

    #111856
    TimothyVI
    Participant

    Quote (charity @ Nov. 14 2008,17:30)
    I feel the writer has projected much Hate and rejection throughout generations.
    I first noticed that Most of the verses that are hurled at people in retaliation were coming from the gospel John

    eg…
    your father is the father of Lies, because you don't interpret the same as I.


    The hate and rejection comes from the belief that every word in the bible is the inspired word of God, and yet no one can agree on what that word says.

    Tim

    #111858
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Tim…..thats why i think it takes God's Spirit to guide us through scriptures, and come to some kind of unity of the Faith.

    peace and love to you an yours…………….gene

    #111861
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Charity,
    But many sacred books upset you.
    They should not as they all come from the mouth of God.

    #111866
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To All………> HEAR “O” ISRAEL THE LORD (HE EXISTS) OUR GOD ( POWER) IS (ONE) LORD. Not two or three triune anythings. If you don't believe this then you don't believe JESUS, and the (OUR) included Jesus HIM ALSO.

    love and peace to you all……………..gene

    #111946
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Yes brother Gene,
    You are right in saying that Jesus our Lord is included in “our” because his God is our God and His Father is our Father.

    #111951

    Hi All!

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

    All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matt 11:27

    All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. Luke 10:22

    Indeed our fellowship is with the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit who takes from the Son and gives to us an understanding of who God is.

    That which we have seen and heard (the Word/God John 1:1 and 1 John 1:1, 2), declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    Jesus said…

    I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

    The way to God the Father is through Jesus. Likewise, Jesus has been given all things and everything that we receive from God comes from or through Jesus. He who has the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:23, 2 John 1:9

    The very life that we have is in Jesus.

    And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:11, 12

    Since having Jesus means we have life, then that would make Jesus the source of our life.

    Therefore Jesus is the focus. The Father has declared with his own words…

    But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever“, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. Heb 1:8

    Therefore…

    …let all the angels of God worship him. Heb 1:16

    And the Father says…

    While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. Matt 17:5

    Paul as well as all the Apostles understood that the focus of the Gospel was Jesus Christ.

    But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the Excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ Phil 3:7, 8

    This kind of servitude to any man or being would be idolatry if he were not God. The kind of focus, love and devotion that Paul had toward Jesus could only be reserved for God alone.

    Our purpose as temples of the living God is to show the world “who God is”. Yet Paul’s focus was to show the world who Jesus was…

    To reveal his Son in me“, that I might “preach him” among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Gal 1:16

    Why didn’t Paul say “to reveal God in me”, or “preach God among the heathen”? Because in the mind of Paul (as the verses in my previous post to David below shows), JESUS IS GOD. For him to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ was preaching the Gospel of God.

    The writer of Hebrews shows the same focus and devotion toward Jesus.

    Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2

    Here we see that Jesus is not only the author (or source) of our faith but he is the perfecter of our faith. I challenge the reader to do a study on the name of Jesus and the Greek word “kyrios” which is translated Lord (applied to Jesus most of the time), as apposed to the title “Father” in the scriptures.

    You will began to see why I speak so much about Jesus, because in honoring and exalting the Son I am obeying the Father who has told me to and the words of my Lord that commands the same honor to himself as God.

    That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23

    Since the focal point is Jesus who is the “visible image of the invisible God” (2 Cor 4:4, Col 1:15) and the exact representation of God’s being (Heb 1:3), and since everything to God or from God is by or through Jesus, and that all of my devotion even to being a bond slave is to be toward him, then that makes Jesus my God.

    Wherever a mans main devotion and heart is that is where his God is. Idolatry comes in many forms. A mans focus can be sex, drugs, food, or as Jesus said “the unrighteous mammon” (money).

    Jesus said No one can serve two masters“. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money. Matt 6:24

    The same can be said of sex, drugs, food, relationships or whatever you put “FIRST” in your life above God.

    That is Idolatry. Yet, we are told to make Jesus the first in our lives just as and equal to the Father. Jesus is our focus because he is our bridegroom our head our love and our God.

    We are to leave everything and become bond slaves to Jesus making him first in everything. If he is not the True God, then that would be Idolatry!

    The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is first and everything to us, and apart from him their is no knowing the Father or God.

    Search the scriptures for they testify of Jesus.

    Since no one can know or come to the Father apart from him and that everything they can ever know or receive from God comes by or through Jesus, then that would mean he can be no less than God. To have an understanding or image of Jesus as less than God is to have a false understanding and image of the “visible image of the invisible God”.  

    To honor Jesus less than the Father is to dishonor the Father.

    That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23

    Recently I made a post in response to David that I thought I would bring over to this thread for all those who seek to reduce the nature of who Jesus is and in so doing reduces their image and understanding of who the Father is.! Without Jesus you cannot come to the Father or know who or what the Father is and IMO you are serving a false god.

    Here it is…

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 15 2008,02:29)
    Hi David

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 11 2008,22:59)
    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET

    Are men to be slaves of a man or a demigod?           Are men to be slaves of a man or a demigod?

    Quote (david @ Sep. 13 2008,16:17)
    How can we be sure it's even calling Jesus “God” here?  The comma between “Savior” and “Jesus” did not exist in the manuscripts.

    So is it: “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ”

    Or

    “Our God, and Savior Jesus Christ”?

    I only bring this up because A THOUSAND TIMES JEHOVAH IS CALLED “GOD” without question or having to interpret where the comma should be.  Yet, Jesus is only clearly called God a few times.  To  me this seems so strange if they are one and the same.

    Apparently you haven’t heard of the “Grandville Sharp” rule?

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET

    The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. In fact, the construction occurs elsewhere in 2 Peter, strongly suggesting that the author’s idiom was the same as the rest of the NT authors’ (cf., e.g., 1:11 [“the Lord and Savior”], 2:20 [“the Lord and Savior”]). The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on the application of Sharp’s rule to 2 Pet 1:1, see ExSyn 272, 276-77, 290. See also Titus 2:13 and Jude 4.

    Source

    This rule is also found in the following scripture…
    as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

    Paul confirms who it is that will appear in this verse…
    Now Enoch, the seventh in descent beginning with Adam, even prophesied of them, saying, “Look! The Lord is coming with thousands and thousands of his holy ones, Jude 1:14

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 11 2008,22:59)

    You accuse me of not speaking the truth while at the same time you reject clear scriptures that teach Yeshua is God.

    Quote (david @ Sep. 13 2008,16:17)
    I'm just saying that perhaps you should take that one scripture out of your “CLEAR scriptures that teach Yeshua is God” list.


    No it is very clear to those who see that Yeshua's nature is no less than the Fathers.

    Why is this a problem for you David? Even your own Bible interprets John 1:1 as “the Word was a god”?

    WJ

    Source.

    Blessings WJ

    #111952

    Hi all.

    Here is the rest of that post to David, dealing with John 1:1.

    WJ

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 11 2008,22:59)

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. John 1:1 NET

    Quote (david @ Sep. 13 2008,16:25)
    And neither is this one clear.  It is the most debates scripture on the planet.  Please remove it from your “clear” scripture list.


    To you it is not clear. In light of other scriptures that John penned like John 1:18, 1 John 5:20, and the witness of Thomas in John 20:28, and the previous scriptures mentioned, 2 Peter 1:1, Phil 2:6 and Titus 2:13 by both Peter and Paul and others, it is very clear.

    Quote (david @ Sep. 13 2008,16:25)

    If the word is 'with' God, as the context suggests, he is not the same one he is with.


    That is true. John is not a “modalist”, neither are Trinitarians. Hence the reason for the lack of the definite article in John 1:1c. But you have to ask the question, “why did John use the same word “theos” in John 1:1c as in John 1:1b? He could have used another word to show that the Word was not God. He could have used the word “theios” which is an adjective that was used in 2 Peter 1:4 describing the divine nature of which we “partake” or share. He could have used the word “theiotes” which is a greek word for “divine or divinity” found in Rom 1:20. But he didn't did he?

    Quote (david @ Sep. 13 2008,16:25)

    Hence, this can of course, be translated different ways.
    What does “fully God” even mean?


    It is highly unlikely that John would have used the same word “theos” in John 1:1b and John 1:1c if he wanted to convey that Yeshua was not God. If you say that it should be qualitative then you have to ask the question how is Yeshua qualitatively less in nature than the Father since he is the express image of his person or substance, Heb 1:3, and he is the “Image of the invisible God”, Col 1:14.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. John 1:1 NET

    The Net which was interpreted by 25 scholars who had access to over 60,000 translators notes explains why they interpreted it “fully God”.

    Or “and what God was the Word was.” Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb. A definite meaning for the term is reflected in the traditional rendering “the word was God.” From a technical standpoint, though, it is preferable to see a qualitative aspect to anarthrous θεός in John 1:1c (ExSyn 266-69). Translations like the NEB, REB, and Moffatt are helpful in capturing the sense in John 1:1c, that the Word was fully deity in essence (just as much God as God the Father). However, in contemporary English “the Word was divine” (Moffatt) does not quite catch the meaning since “divine” as a descriptive term is not used in contemporary English exclusively of God. The translation “what God was the Word was” is perhaps the most nuanced rendering, conveying that everything God was in essence, the Word was too. This points to unity of essence between the Father and the Son without equating the persons. However, in surveying a number of native speakers of English, some of whom had formal theological training and some of whom did not, the editors concluded that the fine distinctions indicated by “what God was the Word was” would not be understood by many contemporary readers. Thus the translation “the Word was fully God” was chosen because it is more likely to convey the meaning to the average English reader that the Logos (which “became flesh and took up residence among us” in John 1:14 and is thereafter identified in the Fourth Gospel as Jesus) is one in essence with God the Father. The previous phrase, “the Word was with God,” shows that the Logos is distinct in person from God the Father.

    sn And the Word was fully God. John’s theology consistently drives toward the conclusion that Jesus, the incarnate Word, is just as much God as God the Father. This can be seen, for example, in texts like John 10:30 (“The Father and I are one”), 17:11 (“so that they may be one just as we are one”), and 8:58 (“before Abraham came into existence, I am”). The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”); rather it affirms that the Word and God are one in essence.

    Source

    Quote (david @ Sep. 13 2008,16:25)
    If he's “the” God, then of course he's obviously fully God.  But why say it that way?  Isn't “God” a word that means “mighty one; strong one” as used in scripture?


    Yes of course you could say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are mighty and strong, but that is not the greek definition of the word “theos”. Since “true, strict, Biblical Monotheism” demands that there is only “One True God” and all other so-called gods are false or opposites of God and are not “gods” at all, and since the word “theos” is never found in the mouth of the Apostles referring to any other being other than Yeshua, except the obvious opposite of God, satan, and that qualitatively in nature Yeshua is no less than God, then the term “fully God” is a correct term in referring to Yeshua.

    Quote (david @ Sep. 13 2008,16:25)
    Question:  Have you been ignoring the Alpha Omega thread?  I bring it up about once a week, but no one wants to discuss it.  Being that Is 1:18 (and someone I've recently talked to in real life) has said it's one of the greatest trinity proofs, I'd think you'd want to discuss it.

    Of course, in reality, it's about as clear as these others scriptures.


    I will look again. But as you know, even if “Alpha and Omega” is a name that describes both the Father and the Son, it would not contradict the Trinitarian view at all, since Trinitarians believe the term “Alpha and Omega” is a name that belongs exclusively to YHWH.

    WJ

    #111954
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    WJ…..why does it take so much intense understanding to get your ideology into a persons mind, when just a few true scripture gives complete understanding without trying to TORK scriptures to meet you Trinitarians ideologies. Why can't the simple truth be enough without all the word games you and other trinitarians seem to need to meet you falsely convinced trinitarian theologies.

    WJ…..Here is all you need to Know just the way it's said…….”.Hear “O” Israel the LORD our GOD is (ONE) LORD.”, I am going to (MY) GOD and YOUR GOD , MY FATHER and YOUR FATHER”> And another simple understanding, A FATHER CAN NOT BE A SON. Jesus Called His Father FATHER, and Himself the SON. Jesus said he did not come to do (HIS) WILL, but the WILL of HIM WHO SENT HIM. Not to mention the Hundreds of other (SIMPLE to UNDERSTAND) Scriptures the Show plainly Jesus is Not Part of any triune anything.

    We don't to Tork or Twist anything to understand that , no mystery, just plain truth, and understanding scripture just as it is written, nothing complicated about it at all, no long special reasoning needed. Just except the words at (FACE) value and you would not have such a problem understanding them.IMO

    peace to you and yours…………………..gene

    #111958

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 17 2008,04:05)
    WJ…..why does it take so much intense understanding to get your ideology into a persons mind, when just a few true scripture gives complete understanding without trying to TORK  scriptures to meet you Trinitarians ideologies.  Why can't the simple truth be enough without all the word games you and other trinitarians seem to need to meet you falsely convinced trinitarian theologies.

    WJ…..Here is all you need to Know just the way it's said…….”.Hear “O” Israel the LORD our GOD is (ONE) LORD.”, I am going to (MY) GOD and YOUR GOD , MY FATHER and YOUR FATHER”> And another simple  understanding, A FATHER CAN NOT BE A SON. Jesus Called His Father FATHER, and Himself the SON. Jesus said he did not come to do (HIS) WILL, but the WILL of HIM WHO SENT HIM. Not to mention the Hundreds of other (SIMPLE to UNDERSTAND) Scriptures the Show plainly Jesus is Not Part of any triune anything.

    We don't to Tork or Twist anything to understand that , no mystery, just plain truth, and understanding scripture just as it is written, nothing complicated about it at all, no long special reasoning needed. Just except the words at (FACE) value and you would not have such a problem understanding them.IMO

    peace to you and yours…………………..gene


    GB

    Interesting that you say I am “torking scriptures”.

    Yet you cannot respond to anything that I have written to show me what is not true or unscriptural.

    Just more of your patronizing!

    Does the scriptures call Jesus God GB?

    If so, then who is torking or denying or ignoring the scriptures?

    ???

    WJ

    #111961

    Hi GB

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 17 2008,04:05)
    …A FATHER CAN NOT BE A SON.

    Really? My Father was a son to my grandfather!  :D

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 17 2008,04:05)
    …Jesus Called His Father FATHER, and Himself the SON.

    Yes and look what the Father calls the Son…

    But unto the Son he saith, “Thy throne, O God“, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:8

    You see GM, Jesus is the “monogenes” Only unique Son.

    Of course the son of a Father cannot be the Father.

    But the son of the Father is “as human” as the Father, they have the identical same nature!

    Why is this so hard for you to understand?

    No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,*,*who is at the Father's side, has made him known. John 1:18

    WJ

    #111962
    NickHassan
    Participant

    WJ,
    You teach what Jesus did not teach.
    Yet you say you worship him?

    #112045
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    WJ……You just showed how you TORK the Things said, I Said A Father can not be the son a very obvious understanding, is that I meant a Father can not be HIS (OWN SON)., But the way your mind works is to try to TORK what was plainly meant. I am sure everyone else here knew full well what i was referring too. Then you proceed to TORK Scripture try to make it fit your Trinitarian theology.

    WJ….. The word God can apply to anyone God has empowered to do His work, in fact the word God < Elohim means (POWERS) and only pertains to the Almighty GOD as the Father. Jesus plainly said " FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD" HE ALSO QUOTED "HEAR O ISRAEL THE (LORD) OUR GOD IS (ONE LORD), notice it says THE LORD (he exists or the self existence one) is OUR GOD (POWER) is ONE, not two or three triune anythings. WJ, we don't need to TORK and TWIST scripture we simply believe them as they are plainly written , not having to add anything to them. We don't need a complete page to explain a simple scripture.

    peace………………..gene :)

    #112058
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 17 2008,04:05)
    WJ…..why does it take so much intense understanding to get your ideology into a persons mind, when just a few true scripture gives complete understanding without trying to TORK  scriptures to meet you Trinitarians ideologies.  Why can't the simple truth be enough without all the word games you and other trinitarians seem to need to meet you falsely convinced trinitarian theologies.

    WJ…..Here is all you need to Know just the way it's said…….”.Hear “O” Israel the LORD our GOD is (ONE) LORD.”, I am going to (MY) GOD and YOUR GOD , MY FATHER and YOUR FATHER”> And another simple  understanding, A FATHER CAN NOT BE A SON. Jesus Called His Father FATHER, and Himself the SON. Jesus said he did not come to do (HIS) WILL, but the WILL of HIM WHO SENT HIM. Not to mention the Hundreds of other (SIMPLE to UNDERSTAND) Scriptures the Show plainly Jesus is Not Part of any triune anything.

    We don't to Tork or Twist anything to understand that , no mystery, just plain truth, and understanding scripture just as it is written, nothing complicated about it at all, no long special reasoning needed. Just except the words at (FACE) value and you would not have such a problem understanding them.IMO

    peace to you and yours…………………..gene


    just “understanding Scripture” huh….? oh.. you mean understanding it the way YOU do… isn't that what you really meant?

    the Scripture calls Jesus God….

    Jesus Is God: Specific Examples Where Greek Theos (“God”) Is Applied to Jesus
    John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1:18No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
    John 20:28Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
    Rom. 9:5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
    Titus 2:13. . . waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ . . .
    Heb. 1:8But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.”
    2 Pet. 1:1To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ . . .

    that's pretty simple too…. but you antitrinitarians have to explain these references away…. go figure….

    anyway…. if you ask how and why trinitarians believe they do, please don't turn around and complain about getting the very thing you asked for… if you think the explanations a little difficult, that's ok… we can try to continue to break it down into simpler and simpler sentences and concepts for you.. ultimately though, usually its not so much a matter of the explanations being too long, too wordy, or too anything else, rather its a simple matter of your disagreement. And since you disagree, you will likely find something to complain about, no matter if the explanation be long or short.

    Personally I do not worry about complaints like this, they are red herrings, and more than anything else, totally irrelevant. If an explanation is true, its true regardless of how long or short, or how many words or few words were used to convey the concept. All these complaints that “oh the Trinity is too complicated” mean nothing really…. the truth can be complicated. It can be simple too. But its a fact that the Scripture tells us that there are in fact some things in Scripture that are hard to understand…. 2 Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand….” Of course antitrinitarians … some being ignorant or unstable… twist these Scriptures to their own destruction…. as the rest of the verse states… but the main point here is that whether a truth be complicated or simple, this has no bearing on whether or not it is true or false….. if everything pertaining to God, and how to live for Him were that simplistic, we would not have 66 books in our Bible filled with information from all different perspectives and all different levels of difficulty…..

    so it takes “intense understanding” because we are to meditate, contemplate, in other words, give intense understanding to the Scriptures all the time… the fact that the Trinity requires this is a hallmark of it's truthfulness…. :)

    blessings,
    Ken

    #112059
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi E,
    I have intensely studied the teachings of Jesus and he never teaches about any trinity.
    But you know more?

    #112063
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 17 2008,15:39)
    Hi E,
    I have intensely studied the teachings of Jesus and he never teaches about any trinity.
    But you know more?


    apparently so….

    #112078
    NickHassan
    Participant

    E,
    So you claim to know more that Jesus?
    CALL NO MAN TEACHER…

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