John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

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  • #112094
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    EP……..I like your explanations on some things, but this TRINITY thing is definitely wrong brother. I would ask if you would reconsider that position with no outside scholarship other then the scriptures themselves, and not adding extra meanings to what is written, like John 1:1 and so forth. And in the light that Jesus said “FOR THOU ARE THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”, Consider (EVERY) WORD in that STATEMENT AS TRUE. Also consider that in the original Greek nearly everywhere GOD appears there is the DEFINITE ARTICLE (THE) before it. Why did the translators eliminate the definite article that the Greek nearly always uses, was it to hide the fact that the definite article (THE) means (ONLY ONE GOD) and they didn't not want people to think that so they removed it. Who gave the translators the right to remove or change meanings by using upper and lower case changes to the text or installing commas in sentences to change meanings, to try to force the text to back up their TRINITARIAN teachings. Your a smart man think about what i have ask you and search it out.

    peace to you and yours…………………….gene

    #112188
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    Apparently you haven’t heard of the “Grandville Sharp” rule?

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET

    The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. In fact, the construction occurs elsewhere in 2 Peter, strongly suggesting that the author’s idiom was the same as the rest of the NT authors’ (cf., e.g., 1:11 [“the Lord and Savior”], 2:20 [“the Lord and Savior”]). The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on the application of Sharp’s rule to 2 Pet 1:1, see ExSyn 272, 276-77, 290. See also Titus 2:13 and Jude 4.

    Source

    This rule is also found in the following scripture…
    as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

    Obviously, I have heard of “sharp's rule.” I made a post on it a month ago.

    Anyway, for the flip side, I'm going to quote an article that discusses this:

    ● Why do some Bible versions render Titus 2:13 as if it were referring only to one person, Jesus, calling him God and Savior?

    In the New World Translation Titus 2:13 reads: “While we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of [the] Savior of us, Christ Jesus.”

    However, many Bible translators have rendered the last part of the verse as if it meant only one person, Jesus. For example, An American Translation says: “. . . the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus.” Such translators often claim that this sort of rendering conforms to a “rule” of Greek grammar. Yet the Trinity doctrine also inclines them toward such a translation.

    A literal translation of the Greek phrase is, “glory of the great God and Saviour of us Christ Jesus.” (The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, by Dr. Alfred Marshall) Observe that there is a single article (the) preceding two nouns (God, Savior) that are joined by the conjunction “and.”

    Over a century ago, Granville Sharp formulated what is supposed to be a “rule” applying in such constructions. It asserts that, since the article (the) is not repeated before the second noun (Savior), the two nouns refer to the same person or subject. This would mean that “great God” and “Savior” would both be descriptive of Jesus, as if the meaning were ‘of Jesus Christ, the great God and our Savior.’

    Persons inclined to believe in the deity of Jesus sometimes give the impression that the above position is demanded by proper Greek grammar. But that is not so. In fact, the validity of the “rule” being applied in Titus has been much debated by scholars.

    For example, Dr. Henry Alford (The Greek Testament, Vol. III) says: “No one disputes that it may mean that which they have interpreted it” as meaning, but he adds that one needs rather to determine ‘what the words do mean.’ And that cannot be settled by grammatical rules.

    A Grammar of New Testament Greek (Moulton-Turner, 1963) states about Titus 2:13: “The repetition of the art[icle] was not strictly necessary to ensure that the items be considered separately.” What, though, about ‘Sharp’s rule’? Dr. Nigel Turner admits: “Unfortunately, at this period of Greek we cannot be sure that such a rule is really decisive.” (Grammatical Insights into the New Testament, 1965) As to the Greek construction used, Professor Alexander Buttmann points out: “It will probably never be possible, either in reference to profane literature or to the N[ew] T[estament], to bring down to rigid rules which have no exception, . . . ”—A Grammar of the New Testament Greek.

    In The Expositor’s Greek Testament, Dr. N. J. D. White observes: “The grammatical argument . . . is too slender to bear much weight, especially when we take into consideration not only the general neglect of the article in these epistles but the omission of it before” ‘Savior’ in 1 Timothy 1:1; 4:10. And Dr. Alford stresses that in other passages where Paul uses expressions like “God our Savior” he definitely does not mean Jesus, for “the Father and the Son are most plainly distinguished from one another.” (1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3-5) This agrees with the overall teaching of the Bible that Jesus is a created Son who is not equal to his Father.—John 14:28; 1 Cor. 11:3.

    Thus, Dr. White concludes: ‘On the whole, then, we decide in favour of the rendering of this passage, appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.’ A number of modern translations agree. In the main text or in footnotes they render Titus 2:13 as speaking of two distinct persons, “the great God” who is Jehovah, and his Son, “our Savior, Christ Jesus,” both of whom have glory. (Luke 9:26; 2 Tim. 1:10) See The New American Bible, The Authentic New Testament, The Jerusalem Bible (footnote) and the translations by J. B. Phillips, James Moffatt and Charles K. Williams.
    –w 81, 4/1, page 31

    #112189
    david
    Participant

    For people wanting a quick look at sharps “rule” start here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granville_Sharp

    #112191
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    What meaning? Your meaning or Watchtowers? Can you show me where the definition of “theos” is “a mighty one”. Surely God is mighty, but that is not the definition of “theos”. You say Jehovah is the “almighty”, so does that mean that every time you see the word “theos” referring to the Father it means “almighty one” but when the word “theos” is referring to the son it only means “mighty one”? What authority do you have to define “theos” as such? Idols are considered “gods” by men , but does that mean they are “mighty”?

    Is this Watchtowers definition for the word “el”, “elohiym” or “theos”, because it sure is not the scriptural definition of the words.

    Well, WJ, you have yet to enlighten us as to the actual meaning of the word “god.” What is it? Do tell.

    Remember, your definition should make sense for all the 6000 times that word is used in the Bible–not just the ones where it refers to the Creator.

    Quote
    What authority do you have to define “theos” as such? Idols are considered “gods” by men , but does that mean they are “mighty”?


    Once again, obviously they are not really mighty, for they are “false” gods, remember.

    They are viewed as gods, but are really nothing. They are viewed as powerful ones, but really, have no power.

    PSALM 115:4-8
    “Their idols are silver and gold, The work of the hands of earthling man. A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes they have, but they cannot see; Ears they have, but they cannot hear. A nose they have, but they cannot smell. Hands are theirs, but they cannot feel. Feet are theirs, but they cannot walk; They utter no sound with their throat. Those making them will become just like them, All those who are trusting in them.”

    So they are powerless. Yet, they are viewed as having power, by those who foolishly put their trust in them.

    So, here, in this case, the definition of “god” (mighty/strong/powerful one) fits.
    They are viewed as mighty ones, but are not.

    This definition also works with the angels, who have more glory than humans, as the Bible says. The Bible says Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, so again, angels being called “gods” is a relative term–they are mighty ones, compared to humans.

    Similarly, with the judges of Israel, they were mighty ones/powerful ones compared to the other Israelites, for much power rested with them.

    Again, this definition fits.

    Satan is called a god, the god of this world. (2 cor 4:4) Indeed, he is the mighty one of this world, being called the ruler of the world, misleading the entire inhabited earth. “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” Of course, anything he has, is only because Jehovah allows it. All this authority and the glory of the kingdoms he rules, has been delivered to him. (Luke 4:6)

    Satan is a powerful one (a god.)

    But, he is nothing in power compared to the Creator, the only true mighty one, the only almighty one.

    wj, can you find a definition that actually works in all instances?

    If your definition of “god” is “the creator” or “the father” you will quickly find it doesn't work in thousands of places.

    #112196

    Hi David

    Quote (david @ Nov. 19 2008,17:34)
    Obviously, I have heard of “sharp's rule.”  I made a post on it a month ago.

    Anyway, for the flip side, I'm going to quote an article that discusses this:


    Of course their will be controversy over 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 and the Grandville Sharp rule by anti-Trinitarians who like yourself are just trying to muddy the waters or create a smoke screen to distract from the fact that….

    Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled“. For more information on the application of Sharp’s rule to 2 Pet 1:1, see ExSyn 272, 276-77, 290. See also Titus 2:13 and Jude 4.

    Net Bible.

    Also, your article deals strictly with Titus 2:13 and not 2 Peter 1:1.

    In your post the following quote was made emphasis mine…

    Quote
    In The Expositor’s Greek Testament, Dr. N. J. D. White observes: “The grammatical argument . . . is too slender to bear much weight, especially when we take into consideration not only the general neglect of the article in these epistles but the omission of it before” ‘Savior’ in 1 Timothy 1:1; 4:10. And Dr. Alford stresses that in other passages where Paul uses expressions like “God our Savior” he definitely does not mean Jesus, for “the Father and the Son are most plainly distinguished from one another.” (1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3-5) This agrees with the overall teaching of the Bible that Jesus is a created Son who is not equal to his Father.—John 14:28; 1 Cor. 11:3.”


    I suppose he hasn’t read the context of Titus 2:13, because if he had he would plainly see that it is clearly Jesus that Paul is speaking of…

    while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Titus 2:13, 14

    What is our blessed hope? It is the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ our Great God and Savior.

    DOES THE BIBLE TEACH ANYWHERE THAT THE FATHER IS COMMING AGAIN?

    Strange David, on the one hand you and Watchtower are trying to make the argument that Jesus is “a god (theos)” and yet now you are tying to make the case that the word “God (theos) in 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 is not referring to Jesus?

    What gives? ??? That is what politicians do.

    Again David the fact remains….Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled“. For more information on the application of Sharp’s rule to 2 Pet 1:1, see ExSyn 272, 276-77, 290. See also Titus 2:13 and Jude 4.

    Net Bible.

    But who knows maybe you can find a scripture that doesn’t follow Sharp’s rule? I doubt it though. It will probably be like you not being able to find one scripture that ascribes the word, “el” elohyim” or “theos” in all 66 books of the Bible to any being with divine qualities other than the Father and Jesus. :)

    WJ

    #112199
    NickHassan
    Participant

    HI wJ,
    Very clever and pretty pictures.
    However it would be better if you could align your teachings with those of Jesus Christ.

    He never taught of any trinity and never said he was God and yet he is our teacher.
    You even claim to worship him

    #112238
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    I suppose he hasn’t read the context of Titus 2:13, because if he had he would plainly see that it is clearly Jesus that Paul is speaking of…

    while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Titus 2:13, 14

    What is our blessed hope? It is the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ our Great God and Savior.

    DOES THE BIBLE TEACH ANYWHERE THAT THE FATHER IS COMMING AGAIN?

    REVELATION 1:8
    “The Lord God says, ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the One who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty!’” (The New American Bible)

    “The Lord God”
    “the one who is and who was and WHO IS TO COME”
    “The Almighty.”

    First, this is referring to the Father:

    Evidence:
    “ALMIGHTY”:
    Shaddai (Heb. “Almighty”) and Pantokrator (Gk. “Almighty”) are repeatedly used with reference to Jehovah, the Father. (Ex 6:3; 2 Cor 6:18; Rev 19:6, Rev 4:8, etc) Neither of these expressions are ever applied to “Jesus” or “Christ.” Yet, the word “almighty” is applied to Jehovah 42 other times, from the very first occurrence of that word to the very last occurrence:
    GENESIS 17:1
    “When Abram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. . . ..”
    REVELATION 21:22 (King James Version)
    “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty AND Lamb ARE the temple of it.” (It’s clear in this verse that the Lamb, [Jesus] is distinguished and separate from the “Almighty” here. Both of them “are” spoken of. It does not say that the Almighty and Jesus “is,” but uses the plural: “are.”)
    Since “Jehovah” is specifically and without question called “God” a thousand times in scripture, and many more without the actual use of his name, the “burden of proof” clearly rests on anyone who wants to prove that the words “God Almighty” refers to anyone but Jehovah.

    “LORD GOD”:
    The words “Lord God” never occur with reference to “Jesus,” although it does occur about 80 times with reference to Jesus’ Father, Jehovah. In all instances where the phrase occurs in the Greek scriptures, it is in reference to Jehovah, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. (Luke 1:32; 1 Peter 3:10-15; Revelation 11:17,19; 15:3; 16:7; 18:8; 21:11; 22:6)
    The phrase “the Lord God” was used as a Greek substitute for the expression “Jehovah God”, that appears many times in the Old Testament. The expression “Lord God” occurs in many Bibles roughly 80 times. It never occurs with reference to the name “Jesus.” In fact, in the original languages, the expression found about 80 times is “Jehovah God.” The substitution of the word “Lord” and the removal of God’s name has confused many as to who this one is.
    Likewise, with the phrases “the Lord our God” and “the Lord your God”: These phrases are always used in reference to Yahweh, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. — Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Deuteronomy 6:13; 10:20); Matthew 22:37 (Deuteronomy 6:5); Mark 12:29 (Deuteronomy 6:4); etc.
    Since the words “Lord God” are definitely used with reference to Jehovah many times and nowhere specifically clearly used with reference to “Jesus,” the burden of proof rests on those who wish to prove that this scripture refers to anyone other than Jehovah.

    “THE ONE WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO IS TO COME”
    As well, this verse (1:8) is speaking of “the One who is and who was and who is to come.” Just a couple verses before, at Revelation 1:5, we see greetings are given from the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come,” “and from Jesus Christ.” (NIV)
    In verse 5 it’s obvious that the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come” is not Jesus Christ, because greetings are given from him “AND from Jesus Christ. So, when the phrase “the one who is and who was and who is to come” occurs 3 verses later, it would seem that this again establishes that we are speaking of someone other than Jesus. Or at the very least, it’s not at all clear that it’s speaking of Jesus.
    Moreover, in the very next verse, the apostle John, says: “I . . . came to be in the isle that is called Patmos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus.” (Rev. 1:9) So John understood God to be separate and distinct from Jesus.
    Also, compare Revelation 4:8 where it says: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” (NIV) We notice the phrase “holy, holy, holy” occurs only one other time in the Bible at Isaiah 6:3, and there it is referring to “Jehovah.” (Compare Rev 11:17)

    Secondly, we note that the Father is said to be coming.

    As well, this verse (1:8) is speaking of “the One who is and who was and who is to come.” Just a couple verses before, at Revelation 1:4,5, we see greetings are given from the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come,” “and from Jesus Christ.” (NIV)

    In verse 5 it’s obvious that the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come” is not Jesus Christ, because greetings are given from him “AND from Jesus Christ. So, when the phrase “the one who is and who was and who is to come” occurs 3 verses later, it would seem that this again establishes that we are speaking of someone other than Jesus. Or at the very least, it’s not at all clear that it’s speaking of Jesus.

    Also, compare Revelation 4:8 where it says: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” (NIV) We notice the phrase “holy, holy, holy” occurs only one other time in the Bible at Isaiah 6:3, and there it is referring to “Jehovah.” (Compare Rev 11:17)

    You ask if the Bible teaches anywhere that the Father is coming. But, your Bible doesn't say “coming” in that verse, it says “appearing.” Mine says “manifestation of.”
    There is a difference between these things and coming.

    1934 “of the great God and of our The Riverside New
    Savior Christ Jesus” Testament,Boston and
    New York.

    1935 “of the great God and of our A New Translation of the
    Saviour Christ Jesus” Bible, by James Moffatt, New
    York and London.

    1950 “of the great God and of our New World Translation of
    Savior Christ Jesus” the Christian Greek
    Scriptures, Brooklyn.

    1957 “of the great God and of our La Sainte Bible, by Louis
    Savior Jesus Christ” Segond, Paris.

    1970 “of the great God and of our The New American Bible,
    Savior Christ Jesus” New York and London.

    1972 “of the great God and of The New Testament in
    Christ Jesus our saviour” Modern English, by
    J. B. Phillips, New York.

    Tit 2:13—Gr., τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ ᾿Ιησοῦ
    (tou me·ga′lou The·ou′ kai so·te′ros he·mon′ Khri·stou′ I·e·sou′)

    In this place we find two nouns connected by καί (kai, “and”), the first noun being preceded by the definite article τοῦ (tou, “of the”) and the second noun without the definite article.
    A similar construction is found in 2Pe 1:1, 2, where, in vs 2, a clear distinction is made between God and Jesus. This indicates that when two distinct persons are connected by καί, if the first person is preceded by the definite article it is not necessary to repeat the definite article before the second person. Examples of this construction in the Greek text are found in Ac 13:50; 15:22; Eph 5:5; 2Th 1:12; 1Ti 5:21; 6:13; 2Ti 4:1. This construction is also found in LXX. (See Pr 24:21 ftn.) According to An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, the sense “of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ . . . is possible in κοινή [koi·ne′] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article].”

    A detailed study of the construction in Tit 2:13 is found in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, pp. 439-457. On p. 452 of this work the following comments are found: “Take an example from the New Testament. In Matt. xxi. 12 we read that Jesus ‘cast out all those that were selling and buying in the temple,’ τοὺς πωλοῦντας καὶ ἀγοράζοντας [tous po·loun′tas kai a·go·ra′zon·tas]. No one can reasonably suppose that the same persons are here described as both selling and buying. In Mark the two classes are made distinct by the insertion of τούς before ἀγοράζοντας; here it is safely left to the intelligence of the reader to distinguish them. In the case before us [Tit 2:13], the omission of the article before σωτῆρος [so·te′ros] seems to me to present no difficulty,—not because σωτῆρος is made sufficiently definite by the addition of ἡμῶν [he·mon′] (Winer), for, since God as well as Christ is often called “our Saviour,” ἡ δόξα τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [he do′xa tou me·ga′lou The·ou′ kai so·te′ros he·mon′], standing alone, would most naturally be understood of one subject, namely, God, the Father; but the addition of ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ to σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [I·e·sou′ Khri·stou′ to so·te′ros he·mon′] changes the case entirely, restricting the σωτῆρος ἡμῶν to a person or being who, according to Paul’s habitual use of language, is distinguished from the person or being whom he designates as ὁ θεός [ho The·os′], so that there was no need of the repetition of the article to prevent ambiguity. So in 2 Thess. i. 12, the expression κατὰ τὴν χάριν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου [ka·ta′ ten kha′rin tou The·ou′ he·mon′ kai ky·ri′ou] would naturally be understood of one subject, and the article would be required before κυρίου if two were intended; but the simple addition of ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ to κυρίου [I·e·sou′ Khri·stou′ to ky·ri′ou] makes the reference to the two distinct subjects clear without the insertion of the article.”

    Therefore, in Tit 2:13, two distinct persons, Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, are mentioned. Throughout the Holy Scriptures it is not possible to identify Jehovah and Jesus as being the same individual.
    –NWT, index 6E

    Quote
    Again David the fact remains….”Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled”.

    Repeating something does not make it a fact, does it? I'm not sure how it's proven to be a fact when so many disagree with it. Of course, the trinitarians will say it's a fact, just like evolutionists will say evolution is a fact. Wishing it does not make it so.

    Quote
    But who knows maybe you can find a scripture that doesn’t follow Sharp’s rule? I doubt it though. It will probably be like you not being able to find one scripture that ascribes the word, “el” elohyim” or “theos” in all 66 books of the Bible to any being with divine qualities other than the Father and Jesus.

    What does having “divine qualities” have to do with it? The angels, who are called “gods” in scripture have godlike qualities.

    2 PETER 1:4
    “Through these things he has freely given us the precious and very grand promises, that through these YOU may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.”

    If those who become spirits in heaven will be said to share in “divine nature” then I assume they will have “divine qualities” as you say.
    There is human fleshly nature and there is “divine nature” which those with spirit bodies have.

    It seems to me the angels who are called “gods” would have divine nature.
    Of course, saying they have “divine nature” doesn't make them God anymore than saying they are “gods” as the Bible does.

    #112240
    david
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Nov. 19 2008,18:19)

    Quote
    What meaning? Your meaning or Watchtowers? Can you show me where the definition of “theos” is “a mighty one”. Surely God is mighty, but that is not the definition of “theos”. You say Jehovah is the “almighty”, so does that mean that every time you see the word “theos” referring to the Father it means “almighty one” but when the word “theos” is referring to the son it only means “mighty one”? What authority do you have to define “theos” as such? Idols are considered “gods” by men , but does that mean they are “mighty”?

    Is this Watchtowers definition for the word “el”, “elohiym” or “theos”, because it sure is not the scriptural definition of the words.

    Well, WJ, you have yet to enlighten us as to the actual meaning of the word “god.”  What is it?  Do tell.

    Remember, your definition should make sense for all the 6000 times that word is used in the Bible–not just the ones where it refers to the Creator.

    Quote
    What authority do you have to define “theos” as such? Idols are considered “gods” by men , but does that mean they are “mighty”?


    Once again, obviously they are not really mighty, for they are “false” gods, remember.

    They are viewed as gods, but are really nothing.  They are viewed as powerful ones, but really, have no power.

    PSALM 115:4-8
    “Their idols are silver and gold, The work of the hands of earthling man. A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes they have, but they cannot see; Ears they have, but they cannot hear. A nose they have, but they cannot smell. Hands are theirs, but they cannot feel. Feet are theirs, but they cannot walk; They utter no sound with their throat. Those making them will become just like them, All those who are trusting in them.”

    So they are powerless.  Yet, they are viewed as having power, by those who foolishly put their trust in them.

    So, here, in this case, the definition of “god” (mighty/strong/powerful one) fits.
    They are viewed as mighty ones, but are not.

    This definition also works with the angels, who have more glory than humans, as the Bible says.  The Bible says Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, so again, angels being called “gods” is a relative term–they are mighty ones, compared to humans.

    Similarly, with the judges of Israel, they were mighty ones/powerful ones compared to the other Israelites, for much power rested with them.

    Again, this definition fits.

    Satan is called a god, the god of this world.  (2 cor 4:4)  Indeed, he is the mighty one of this world, being called the ruler of the world, misleading the entire inhabited earth.  “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”    Of course, anything he has, is only because Jehovah allows it.  All this authority and the glory of the kingdoms he rules, has been delivered to him. (Luke 4:6)  

    Satan is a powerful one (a god.)

    But, he is nothing in power compared to the Creator, the only true mighty one, the only almighty one.

    wj, can you find a definition that actually works in all instances?

    If your definition of “god” is “the creator” or “the father” you will quickly find it doesn't work in thousands of places.


    WJ, I think you missed this post. I'm wondering what your response would be to my question.

    #112248
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    http://reslight.net/2pet1-1.html

    Many argue that in 2 Peter 1:1, “God” can be viewed as a proper name, and that “Savior Jesus Christ” can also viewed as a proper name, which would call for an exception to Sharp's general rule, and mean that two different persons are being spoken of.

    Another exception to Sharp's rule is that provided by evidence and context. We therefore note a tradition found in the New Testament letters that show that it was usual to start their greetings by references both the Father and his Son. This gives another reason to believe that, if Peter did actual use the word “God” here, rather “the Lord” (Syriac), then it should be viewed as applied to the God and Father of Jesus, not to Jesus.

    Further evidence can be seen in the context, where Peter makes references to “God” as the Father, and distinguishes “God” from Jesus (1 Peter 1:2,3,21; 2:5; 3:18,21; 4:10; 2 Peter 1:17); thus it is highly unlikely that Peter meant anything different in 2 Peter 1:1. Even in the following verse Peter distinguishes between God and Jesus, thus the context does indicate two persons are being referred to. (2 Peter 1:2) This is the basis for some translations that render this in such a way so as to show a distinction between “God” and “Our Savior, Jesus Christ”.

    Below are some other renderings of the phrase from 2 Peter 1:1, in which a distinction is indicated between God and Jesus:
    the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ — Third Millenium Bible translation
    of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ — New Revised Standard Version, margin
    through the righteousness of our God and of our Deliverer Yeshua the Messiah — The Complete Jewish Bible translation
    through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ — Webster's Bible Translation
    righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ. — Weymouth New Testament
    the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ — New International Verson
    our God and the savior Jesus Christ — New American Bible translation, margin
    the righteousness of our God, and the Saviour, Jesus Christ: — Concordant Literal New Testament
    thro' the veracity of our God, and of Jesus Christ. — Daniel Mace New Testament (1729)
    the righteousness of our God and our Savior, Jesus Christ — Literal Translation of the HOLY BIBLE, by Jay P. Green, Sr.
    the righteousness of our God and of our Savior Jesus Christ — Simple English Bible translation
    share the faith that God in his justice has equally allotted to us; as well as that of our Saviour Jesus Christ. — 21st Century NT

    Of course, if the Syriac manuscript is correct, the word “God” does not even appear in 2 Peter 1:1.

    At any rate, one can see that it is very questionable that Peter is referring to Jesus as THEOS. Of course, Jesus is our THEOS, our might, in the power and authority given to him by God, but this usage of THEOS does not mean that Jesus is God, thus there is nothing in 2 Peter 1:1 that says that Jesus is God Almighty. Definitely, there is surely nothing there that gives any idea that Jesus is a person of God, or that there are three persons in God.

    #112249

    Hi David

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 14 2008,08:30)

    What meaning? Your meaning or Watchtowers? Can you show me where the definition of “theos” is “a mighty one”. Surely God is mighty, but that is not the definition of “theos”. You say Jehovah is the “almighty”, so does that mean that every time you see the word “theos” referring to the Father it means “almighty one” but when the word “theos” is referring to the son it only means “mighty one”? What authority do you have to define “theos” as such? Idols are considered “gods” by men , but does that mean they are “mighty”?

    Is this Watchtowers definition for the word “el”, “elohiym” or “theos”, because it sure is not the scriptural definition of the words.

    Quote (david @ Nov. 19 2008,18:19)
    Well, WJ, you have yet to enlighten us as to the actual meaning of the word “god.”  What is it?  Do tell.


    It sure isn’t what you and watchtower try to portray i.e., “Mighty One” or “Strong One” or “Powerful One.” That would mean that anyone or anything that is a “Mighty One” or a “Strong One” or a “Powerful One.” can be considered “a god”.

    The Biblical definition is “One True God”, all others are “so-called gods” or “false”

    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was “no God” formed, neither shall there be after me. Isa 43:10

    Quote (david @ Nov. 19 2008,18:19)
    Remember, your definition should make sense for all the 6000 times that word is used in the Bible–not just the ones where it refers to the Creator.


    Exactly David, and out of those 6000 times that the words “el” “eloyhim” or “theos” is mentioned there should be at least one time where the words are ascribed to a being by God or a man of God with divine qualities like an Angel of God or a man of God, but all you can cite is Moses who was seen by Pharoah as “a god” who worshipped many gods.

    But as your post has shown you have not presented “one scripture” that supports there are other gods but only that there are false gods which are not gods at all.

    Remember David the Bible clearly tells us…

    So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “there is no God but one”. For even if there are “so called gods”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords.. 1 Cor 8:4, 5

    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was “no God” formed, neither shall there be after me. Isa 43:10

    So David your argument that there are “other gods”, as if to say somehow Jesus fits as “a God” is not against me, but against scripture. The translators of the NWT must not have read Isa 43:19 or 1 Cor 8:4,5 before they translated John 1:1c as “a God”. Your own Bible contradicts itself.

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 14 2008,08:30)
    What authority do you have to define “theos” as such? Idols are considered “gods” by men , but does that mean they are “mighty”?


    Quote (david @ Nov. 19 2008,18:19)
    Once again, obviously they are not really mighty, for they are “false” gods, remember.

    They are viewed as gods, but are really nothing.  They are viewed as powerful ones, but really, have no power.

    PSALM 115:4-8
    “Their idols are silver and gold, The work of the hands of earthling man. A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes they have, but they cannot see; Ears they have, but they cannot hear. A nose they have, but they cannot smell. Hands are theirs, but they cannot feel. Feet are theirs, but they cannot walk; They utter no sound with their throat. Those making them will become just like them, All those who are trusting in them.”

    So they are powerless.  Yet, they are viewed as having power, by those who foolishly put their trust in them.

    So, here, in this case, the definition of “god” (mighty/strong/powerful one) fits.
    They are viewed as mighty ones, but are not.


    :D That is exactly what I have been saying David. They are not gods at all, but “so-called gods”. Now the question is what do you do with Jesus who is called God (theos) by the Father and the Apostles, who obviously is not a false God (theos) and who obviously is Almighty for he has all authority and power? All other so-called gods are not gods at all, yet you have the Father and the Apostles calling Jesus God!

    Did the Apostles not know the scriptures? Did the Father inspire the scriptures…. ???

    See now that I, even I, am he, and “there is no god with me”: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. Deut 32:39

    And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold,”now I know that there is no God in all the earth”, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant. 2 Kings 5:15

    And he said, LORD God of Israel, “there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath”, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart: 1 Kings 8:23

    And said, O LORD God of Israel, “there is no God like thee in the heaven”, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts: 2 Chron 6:14

    Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God”. Isa 44:6

    Quote (david @ Nov. 19 2008,18:19)

    This definition also works with the angels, who have more glory than humans, as the Bible says.  The Bible says Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, so again, angels being called “gods” is a relative term–they are mighty ones, compared to humans.


    This is where your argument is fallacious because you have not presented one scripture that ascribes the word “el” “eloyhim” or “theos” to an Angel of God anyw
    here.

    All you have is “the god of this world, satan” which is ambiguous as to his nature being that of an angel. But even so he is still not a god “theos” at all to a Monotheistic believer. In fact satan is usurping authority and is nothing but a “false god” an enemy of God, as the scriptures teach.

    Quote (david @ Nov. 19 2008,18:19)
    Similarly, with the judges of Israel, they were mighty ones/powerful ones compared to the other Israelites, for much power rested with them.

    Again, this definition fits.


    What definition? That they are “gods” or “mighty ones” but they are not really “gods” or mighty ones at all?

    Quote (david @ Nov. 19 2008,18:19)

    Satan is called a god, the god of this world.  (2 Cor 4:4)  Indeed, he is the mighty one of this world, being called the ruler of the world, misleading the entire inhabited earth.  “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”    Of course, anything he has, is only because Jehovah allows it.  All this authority and the glory of the kingdoms he rules, has been delivered to him. (Luke 4:6)


    Again, “so-called god”, “false god”, “enemy of god”! Paul calls him the “god of this world” because “he is god to all those minds he has blinded”. Paul is not contradicting his own words or Yahweh’s which read…

    So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “there is no God but one”. For even if there are “so called gods”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords.. 1 Cor 8:4, 5

    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was “no God” formed, neither shall there be after me. Isa 43:10

    Quote (david @ Nov. 19 2008,18:19)

    Satan is a powerful one (a god.)


    To who David? To the Father, to Jesus, to the believer? Would you argue that satan is an “Angel of God”, or that he has divine attributes of God, or divine qualities of God?

    Quote (david @ Nov. 19 2008,18:19)

    But, he is nothing in power compared to the Creator, the only true mighty one, the only almighty one.


    Agreed! And he is nothing to a believer but as an enemy, a roaring lion with no teeth. So he is not a god at all.

    Quote (david @ Nov. 19 2008,18:19)

    wj, can you find a definition that actually works in all instances?

    If your definition of “god” is “the creator” or “the father” you will quickly find it doesn't work in thousands of places.


    I have David. In every instance the words “el” “eloyhim” or “theos” (god) refers to “The True God” or “a so-called god” or false god”.

    So now what do you do with John 1:1? ???

    WJ

    #112250

    Hi DK

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 21 2008,01:30)
    http://reslight.net/2pet1-1.html

    Many argue that in 2 Peter 1:1, “God” can be viewed as a proper name, and that “Savior Jesus Christ” can also viewed as a proper name, which would call for an exception to Sharp's general rule, and mean that two different persons are being spoken of.


    The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on Sharp’s rule see ExSyn 270-78, esp. 276. See also 2 Pet 1:1 and Jude 4.

    NET Bible.

    Its pretty obvious that God and Savior are titles and not names.

    WJ

    #112251

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 21 2008,01:30)
    At any rate, one can see that it is very questionable that Peter is referring to Jesus as THEOS. Of course, Jesus is our THEOS, our might, in the power and authority given to him by God, but this usage of THEOS does not mean that Jesus is God, thus there is nothing in 2 Peter 1:1 that says that Jesus is God Almighty. Definitely, there is surely nothing there that gives any idea that Jesus is a person of God, or that there are three persons in God.


    Hi DK

    I can tell you are a JW, for your definition of “theos” is obviously the same as watchtowers also!

    WJ

    #112256
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 21 2008,03:23)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 21 2008,01:30)
    At any rate, one can see that it is very questionable that Peter is referring to Jesus as THEOS. Of course, Jesus is our THEOS, our might, in the power and authority given to him by God, but this usage of THEOS does not mean that Jesus is God, thus there is nothing in 2 Peter 1:1 that says that Jesus is God Almighty. Definitely, there is surely nothing there that gives any idea that Jesus is a person of God, or that there are three persons in God.


    Hi DK

    I can tell you are a JW, for your definition of “theos” is obviously the same as watchtowers also!

    WJ


    :) …WJ

    I was just posting an interesting article that rebutted your posr post on Sharp's article…I did not claim the thoughts as my own..i.e. why I quoted the source

    As for being a JW….Not anymore….but the JW's definition of theos..is no more wrong than yours…

    Simply put..I think the trinity is a false doctrine invented by Constantine and his cronies…which has roots in babylonian polytheistic pagan worship.

    #112257

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 21 2008,04:32)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 21 2008,03:23)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 21 2008,01:30)
    At any rate, one can see that it is very questionable that Peter is referring to Jesus as THEOS. Of course, Jesus is our THEOS, our might, in the power and authority given to him by God, but this usage of THEOS does not mean that Jesus is God, thus there is nothing in 2 Peter 1:1 that says that Jesus is God Almighty. Definitely, there is surely nothing there that gives any idea that Jesus is a person of God, or that there are three persons in God.


    Hi DK

    I can tell you are a JW, for your definition of “theos” is obviously the same as watchtowers also!

    WJ


    :)  …WJ

    I was just posting an interesting article that rebutted your posr post on Sharp's article…I did not claim the thoughts as my own..i.e. why I quoted the source

    As for being a JW….Not anymore….but the JW's definition of theos..is no more wrong than yours…

    Simply put..I think the trinity is a false doctrine invented by Constantine and his cronies…which has roots in babylonian polytheistic pagan worship.

    Hi DK

    Hi DK

    Interesting that you would mention.. “babylonian polytheistic pagan worship”.

    It is the “Trinitarian” that believes there is “Only One True God”.

    You say…

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 21 2008,01:30)
    Jesus is our THEOS, (god) our might, in the power and authority given to him by God…


    But then you say…

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 21 2008,01:30)
    but this usage of THEOS does not mean that Jesus is God, (theos)…


    Maybe you can jump in here and show us where “theos” is interpreted in some other way than “God” or “god”. If Jesus is “a god” and not “the God” then you believe in Polytheism like the JWs.

    As far as “cronies”… well usually someone who has no scriptural grounds to stand on resort to name calling and condemnation.

    Very weak!

    WJ

    #112258
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 21 2008,05:35)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 21 2008,04:32)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 21 2008,03:23)

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 21 2008,01:30)
    At any rate, one can see that it is very questionable that Peter is referring to Jesus as THEOS. Of course, Jesus is our THEOS, our might, in the power and authority given to him by God, but this usage of THEOS does not mean that Jesus is God, thus there is nothing in 2 Peter 1:1 that says that Jesus is God Almighty. Definitely, there is surely nothing there that gives any idea that Jesus is a person of God, or that there are three persons in God.


    Hi DK

    I can tell you are a JW, for your definition of “theos” is obviously the same as watchtowers also!

    WJ


    :)  …WJ

    I was just posting an interesting article that rebutted your posr post on Sharp's article…I did not claim the thoughts as my own..i.e. why I quoted the source

    As for being a JW….Not anymore….but the JW's definition of theos..is no more wrong than yours…

    Simply put..I think the trinity is a false doctrine invented by Constantine and his cronies…which has roots in babylonian polytheistic pagan worship.

    Hi DK

    Hi DK

    Interesting that you would mention.. “babylonian polytheistic pagan worship”.

    It is the “Trinitarian” that believes there is “Only One True God”.

    You say…

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 21 2008,01:30)
    Jesus is our THEOS, (god) our might, in the power and authority given to him by God…


    But then you say…

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 21 2008,01:30)
    but this usage of THEOS does not mean that Jesus is God, (theos)…


    Maybe you can jump in here and show us where “theos” is interpreted in some other way than “God” or “god”. If Jesus is “a god” and not “the God” then you believe in Polytheism like the JWs.

    As far as “cronies”… well usually someone who has no scriptural grounds to stand on resort to name calling and condemnation.

    Very weak!

    WJ


    WJ…sorry bro..I wasn't calling you a cronie :D

    I was referring to those priests who along with constantine “created” the “central doctrine of christian faith” aka the trinity..

    Sorry for the misunderstanding :p

    I think you are a great asset to this board..WJ..I just think you are wrong about this trinity thing..thats all…

    I have posted many times on this subject..so I won't rehash..I just think that scripture at 2 peter…is wrongly translated…I think the syriac translation in the most likely..

    Remember Sharp..was a trinitarian…so you have to keep that in mind when you look at his application of his “rules”

    #112260
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    you have yet to enlighten us as to the actual meaning of the word “god.” What is it? Do tell.

    –david

    WJ's response:

    The Biblical definition is “One True God”

    SERIOUSLY?

    The Biblical definition of “God” is “One True God.” That's the meaning of the word “god”? Really WJ?
    You're starting to seem to me like those people that say God's name is God.

    So, if I were to insert the phrase “one true God” into all the places where that word “god” appears, it would make sense?

    NOPE!

    WJ, Gene has tried to earlier explain that the word “god” means “power.” Well, when applied to a being, it means “powerful one.”
    You're belief that the definition of “god” is “true God” is a little revealing.

    WJ, I'm not asking for what God means in the Bible, or the different ways it is used. I'm asking you for the meaning of that word, which you seem unable to provide.

    Quote
    Agreed! And he is nothing to a believer but as an enemy, a roaring lion with no teeth. So he is not a god at all.


    And yet, the inspired Bible writer wrote that he was a god, the god (mighty one) of this world. (2 Cor 4:4) The Bible backs this up in many places showing the influence and control and power he has over the people of the world. So when the Bible says that he is the “god of this world” it is correct. He actually is.

    #112264
    david
    Participant

    Daniel B. Wallace says about Sharp:
    “His strong belief in Christ’s deity led him to study the Scriptures in the original in order to defend more ably that precious truth … As he studied the Scriptures in the original, he noticed a certain pattern, namely, when the construction article-noun-και-noun involved personal nouns which were singular and not proper names, they always referred to the same person. He noticed further that this rule applied in several texts to the deity of Jesus Christ.”
    “The Semantic Range of the Article-Noun-Kai'-Noun Plural Construction in the New Testament,” Grace Theological Journal 4.1 (1983), p. 61

    Say what you like about sharps ideas, WJ, but although there has been 200 years of people who have the same agenda as he had before he began his studies, the following cannot be ignored:
    “Sharp's purpose for his study was to prove that Jesus is God, and the manner in which he narrows the rules and exceptions as applied to the NT Greek seems to narrow these rules to the purpose he sought.”
    http://reslight.net/2pet1-1.html

    #112267
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Hi All,
    Here are few new thoughts on Jn 1:1;

    LOGOS:

    THE BEGINNING
    OF
    THE CREATION OF GOD

    THE WORD & JESUS:

    I pray that you may have the revelation on the difference between JESUS and THE WORD. Many Bible scholars would have us believe that THE WORD was Jesus in the beginning and He became flesh nearly two millenniums ago. But by saying that THE WORD was Jesus, they are telling us that in eternity past (or in the period of “the beginning” in John 1:1) there were two Gods – God the Father and God the Son. Look at this verse:

    “…there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.” (Isa.45:21)

    If the LOGOS was another GOD, then this statement is false. The LOGOS was but the WORD BODY that God spoke through to bring forth creation and to His chosen people, Israel. It stood between the invisible and the visible realms like a mediator. “Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is ONE” (Gal.3:20). As the LOGOS, so is the Lord Jesus Christ Who mediates between God and man in the new covenant of His Blood (cf. 1 Tim.2:5).

    THE WORD was not Jesus. THE WORD was God.  However, Jesus was THE WORD of God made manifest in the flesh. Jesus was not with God in the beginning; THE WORD (that was to be made manifest in the Man Jesus) was. And THE WORD was the 'Monogene' (SEED) which came forth from God to express ITSELF. THE WORD had a beginning but since IT came forth from the Eternal Spirit, THE WORD was and is eternal (because THE WORD was God), but the Man Jesus, Who was begotten and created, was not eternal. THE WORD was the Full Prefiguration of Christ who came forth from the MIND of God to express Deity, the Eternal Godhead. In that beginning, Deity comprised of the Invisible Almighty Spirit and His Visible Word Body (Grk: LOGOS) and not the Father and the Son.

    The beloved Apostle John had an undeniably clear revelation of the WORD (LOGOS) of life that he wrote thus:

    “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
    (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)” (1 Jhn.1:1-2)

    Notice that he called the LOGOS “life” and “eternal life” that was with the FATHER in the beginning, sort of rephrasing the statement he used in the prologue of his gospel – “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. He said that this ETERNAL LIFE was manifested to the saints who had heard IT, seen IT, looked upon IT and even handled IT. ETERNAL LIFE is none other than YAHWEH taking form in the LOGOS. And the LOGOS of eternal life was later manifested in the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Hence, THE SPIRIT OF GOD (THE FATHER) and THE LOGOS (of ETERNAL LIFE) are not two but ONE.

    Unless we have the revelation, we will think that THE WORD (LOGOS) was Jesus, the Son of God, in the beginning. But Jesus Who was to be God's WORD (tabernacled and manifested) in flesh (about 2000 years ago) was expressed right there in that LOGOS. Because of the attribute of Fatherhood in God, there had to be a Son. And the LOGOS of God came forth with that Sonship spirit to express the Son of God Who was yet to come. (Remember a son is a carrier and a builder of the family name.) Hence, the “Sonship spirit” of Jesus was an intrinsic part of the LOGOS which came forth from God to express God's attributes. Jesus, Who was the Monogene (Seed, 'Son') of God, was being expressed in and through that WORD body. He was the very Spirit and Soul of God, so to speak. The LOGOS which was later to be tabernacled in Jesus, the Son of God, was the 'SON', figuratively speaking. And according to God's Sovereign Will, God glorified Him, the Son of God, in His WORD (Jhn.17:5). Then God crucified and slayed Him as a Lamb before the foundation of the world (Rev.13:8). Elohim purposed His WORD after the counsel of His Own Will (Eph.1:11), and spoke of non-existent things as if they (already) existed (Rom.4:17). As the redeemed of God, we were even chosen and purified in Christ before the world was founded as God saw us in love (Eph.1:4). We were a part (“sonship”) of that WORD because we are a part of the Body of Christ. We are “seeds” produced by the “Monogene” (Seed) which was expressed in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament according to the Master Plan of God. Because we have the sonship spirit we could be born flesh (human beings) and be born again as sons and daughters of God. “That which is born of flesh is flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (Jhn.3:6). Moreover, we have also been glorified as it was established in the Mind and Word of God (Rom.8:29-30). Yes, by the foreknowledge of God, He had thus predestinated and foreordained His Redemption Plan such that even the names of His sons and daughters were written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world (Rev.13:8).

    Adam, who was first created a spirit, was not yet a son of God. He could not be called a son of God until he was given a body of flesh – born into this world. In that spirit form, he only possessed the attribute of sonship. Some Bible believers believe that, like Adam, all human beings (or just the true sons and daughters of God) were created, and existed, as spirits before they were born. A favourite scriptural verse in support of this idea is Job 38:4-7: “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding…When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” Do they mean to say that the spirits of all the other human beings (or all the “sons of God”) were already created together with the spirit of Adam before the earth was founded? Also, before the earth was laid, was the spirit of Eve existing among all the female spirits or was she a part of the spirit of Adam?

    All the “sons of God” (which include “daughters”) were existing only in the omnipotent Mind of God. They were a part of the LOGOS, as “seeds” (sons of God) to be brought forth by the SEED (SON of God) when He came to lay down His Life on earth (Jhn.12:24). As “seeds” within the SEED (e.g. mangoes (seeds) which would be produced by ONE MANGO SEED through time), they did not literally exist as spirit beings. The “sons of God” were intrinsic in the LOGOS.

    We know that God is a Creator, but He cannot be Creator if creation exists only in His Mind. He has to create and make manifest His creation before He is called Creator. We know that He is a Saviour, but if there is no literal sinners for Him to save, then He cannot be called Saviour.

    The Father-son relationship between God and Adam had to be expressed and manifested. Adam was the beginning of mankind (Hebrew: âdâm). Though he was first created a spirit (male and female), he was unlike the LOGOS which was the WORD BODY of God. He came from God being created by the WORD Himself. Adam was just a part of the Word body. The sonship attribute of Adam was in the spirit of Adam but it had to be visibly manifested as a person (human being) before it can truly be called a son of God. Adam had to have a corporeal body from the dust of the earth. [What is a person? See section under “PERSON AND PERSONALITY”.] After forming a body of dust, God then took the spirit of Adam and breathed it into the body of dust, and Adam became a living soul, a person (human being) with the life and vitality of his Maker (Gen.1:27). He was to express the Life of God in him. (The living soul is the manifestation of the spirit.) Even though Adam was a son of God, the knowledge of Father-son relationship was unrevealed in the Old Testament. God’s relationship with Adam and the children of Israel was a Master-servant relationship. The revelation of Father-son relationship came only after Jesus was sent as the Son of God to b
    e the propitiation of our sins (1 Jhn.4:10).

    The spirit-mind of Adam was an expression from the Spirit of the Almighty God, and thus it was part of the image of God. The (sonship) spirit of Adam was both male and female. And as long as Adam was in that form he could never be manifested as a son of God. It was manifested only after Adam became a person, a man. Then from his side, was the feminine part taken out to form a woman. Likewise when the WORD was made manifest in the person of Jesus Christ, we see the expression of both male and female. Christ was the “male” (Bridegroom) and the Church the “female” (Bride) which was taken and formed from His side at Calvary.

    Angels have no sonship spirit though they were created in God's image (spirit in form) and likeness (visible feature). They cannot be born human. They cannot be persons. They are not persons even though they may appear (en morphe) as men. They cannot be sons of God. They were simply created and ordained to be ministering spirits.

    God is a SPIRIT, that's what He is. Though the WORD is God yet not all of God is the WORD. Theologically, we could say that the SPIRIT of Elohim is the greater part and His WORD the lesser part (for the latter proceeds from the former). It is this lesser part that is the visible side of God (called the WORD) which became a man. Hence, the WORD is the Lord of Heaven (1 Cor.15:47; Jhn.3:13). And the WORD was manifested in the Person of Jesus Christ.

    The Thought and Expression of God – THE WORD – went forth from Him in a Spirit-Body as THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD (THE BEGINNER or AUTHOR OF THE CREATION OF GOD), THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE, THE FIRSTBORN AMONG MANY BRETHREN. By and through this WORD were all creations of God brought forth into existence.

    “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And he is before all things, and in him all things consist” (Col.1:16-17 NKJ version).

    “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things [by Jesus Christ:]” (Eph.3:9 [bracketed text are not in original]).

    The Word of God came through this WORD BODY. God spoke through Him and said, “Let there be light” and there was light; “Let there be fishes” and there were fishes. He was the Spokesman of God. And it was through this WORD (or SPIRIT) BODY that the Spirit of God 'en morphe' Himself and became VISIBLE unto His servants the prophets. We call such a manifestation THEOPHANY.

    NO SEED, NO LIFE:

    When you get an apple seed to work, by planting it, it will bring forth a shoot, then leaves, stalks, branches, and so on. Then the flowers appear and fade. The pistils enlarge to become apples which contain the same type of seed which was originally planted. The seed, the beginning of the product, through its different manifestations in various stages would in the final stage emerge as seed itself. So, we understand that THE LOGOS as THE SEED of God, which came forth as The Beginning of the Creation of God, was manifested unto the Patriarchs and Prophets at different times and in divers manners, and (“in these last days” – Heb.1:2) revealed unto us as The Only Begotten Son (Monogene – Seed) of The Father. The complete LOGOS of God was in the Son of God.  Therefore Jesus was THE WORD (LOGOS) of God. He was the revelation of God to mankind (cf. 1 Pet.23-25).

    As THE LOGOS was THE SEED (Monogene) of God which God had brought forth out of His own bosom to express His attribute of Fatherhood, it could not be anything less than the 'SON' of the 'FATHER', THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD, THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE, THE FIRSTBORN AMONG MANY BRETHREN – Elohim producing Himself a Family. This is that “Mystery of Godliness; God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of the angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in the glory” which was purposed in the Mind of the Almighty before anything ever existed, and brought forth to pass in Christ Jesus our Lord. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was come in the flesh. He was THE WORD of God manifested in human flesh. In all things, He was the pre-eminence.

    Now, since “the Word was with God,…” (Jhn.1:1), IT therefore dwelled with the Almighty Spirit in the Light (Pillar of Fire) that was unapproachable (cf. 1 Tim.6:16). IT dwelled in the bosom (heart) of God. God, as 'Father', cradled the Word, His Seed, His 'Son'. The spirit of SONSHIP (Jesus, the Son of God) was in the WORD. Jesus was that 'Son of God' expressed in that WORD Body. That's why Jesus, the Son of God, was the WORD of Life – both in Creation and Redemption (Jhn.1:4; 1 Jhn.1:1). As the Messiah (Saviour) must be human, the WORD must put on human flesh. To do that, God had to bring about a new creation for the dwelling place of the WORD – “…a body hast thou prepared me” (Heb.10:5b). Yes, a body of flesh (not the body of a baby) was prepared for the WORD of God to be manifested. It was a body untouched by human genetic. That body was the body of Jesus. And God was with Him preparing Him for the WORD to indwell Him when He came of age (Lk.1:80; 2:40,52; Jhn.1:14). [Note: The gospel of Luke deals with Jesus as Son of Man, His Humanity and the gospel of John deals with Jesus as the Son of God, His Divinity and Godhood.]

    When the baby Jesus was born in Bethlehem, God breathed into Him the spirit of Sonship (that was expressed in the Spirit Body of the WORD). The newborn baby Jesus became a living soul and grew up to express the Life of God. From thence there was no longer any manifestation of the Spirit (Word) Body. Theophany ceased but the WORD was still with God. Though Jesus was sinless and had a divine nature, just as Adam had before his fall, Jesus was not Deity (God). Until He was 'adopted' (cf. Gal.4:5), He could not be anointed. Until He was anointed (at His Water Baptism), He could not be the fullness of the Word. And until He was indwelled by the Word, He could not be Deity, He could not be God incarnate.

    “For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell.” (Col.1:19)

    “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” (Col.2:9)

    Hence, Jesus is not in the Godhead (Deity) but the Godhead (Deity) is in Jesus.

    May God bless you
    Adam

    #112271
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……………I agree, God was (IN) Christ reconciling the world unto (HIMSELF)>Jesus even said the words i am telling you are (NOT) mine, so if they weren't His, how could he be them then. It was the ONLY TRUE GOD (IN) Christ expressing HIMSELF (THROUGH) HIM. But that never made Jesus GOD HIMSELF> Again you have proved the TRINITY the LIE IT IS.

    love and peace to you and yours Adam…………………..gene

    #112279
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Thanks brother Gene for your response on my post.

    Love and peace to you
    Adam

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