John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,921 through 1,940 (of 26,007 total)
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  • #111433
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8…..i agree with you on that, I think Jeff Benner's explanation of who the Hebrews viewed the word GOD fits most all scriptures it simply means (POWERS) and if we say LORD GOD , we are saying HE EXIST WITH POWERS> Notice when Jesus quoted ,'The LORD our GOD (POWER) is ONE (LORD), he did not say one GOD. If we view John 1:1 with that in mind we can get that John was trying to say the word was with power and was power. Remember the LORD spoke (words) everything into existence. John 1:1 is the major text trinitarians use to justify their false Doctrine of the TRINITY.

    peace to you and yours…………………gene

    #111453
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    to all,

    people are going astray by bringing certain supposed words into scripture and being perverted.someone speaks of articles, someone speaks of plan etc..on john 1:1. grace=God,holy spirit=God,love=God as these are features of God.Similarly son is also a feature of God
    9as your son will be of your features only)therefore, son=God.All features above in together including son make complete GZod.
    babu

    #111454
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    people are going astray by bringing certain supposed words into scripture and being perverted.someone speaks of articles, someone speaks of plan etc..on john 1:1. grace=God,holy spirit=God,love=God as these are features of God.Similarly son is also a feature of God
    (as your son will be of your features only)therefore, son=God.All features above in together including son make complete God.
    babu

    #111460
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 21 2008,13:31)
    WJ….Jesus is indeed my lord but he is (NOT) my GOD. His GOD is MY GOD and we have the same Father who is GOD. The Fathers Presence was in Jesus via the Holy Spirit , but was not Him, Just as the Fathers Spirit can be in us, but not us. Remember Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) Himself and went to say the (FATHER) in me, He doth the works. God was in Jesus reconciling the world unto Himself, but being in Jesus does not make him Jesus. Why would Jesus say He was going to the Father if He was the Father. Didn't he Quote ” Hear O Israel the LORD our GOD is (ONE) LORD”. The (OUR) included Him also.

    Peace………. gene


    the only reason Jesus said that He could do nothing apart from the Father was because He would not want to. His and the Father's will are one….. again, just as in the “Father is greater than I” type of passages that  some people might want to appeal to as some kind of evidence that the Son is a lesser ontological being than the Father, they do so at the expense of good exegesis and by taking passages out of their context to make them say something that they do not say. The 3 “do nothing” passages are:

    ESV Jn 5:19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you,  the Son  can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father  does, that the Son does likewise.
     
    ———————————————————————-
    ESV Jn 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and  my judgment is just, because  I seek not my own will  but the will of him who sent me.
     
    ———————————————————————-
    ESV Jn 8:28 Jesus said to them, “When you have  lifted up the Son of Man,  then you will know that  I am he, and that  I do nothing on my own authority, but  speak just as the Father taught me.

    ———————————————————————-

    Tolle Lege:

    “The principal thrust of v. 19 is that whatever ‘making himself equal with God’ (v. 18) might mean, for Jesus it does not mean complete or even partial independence from his Father (cf. 7:18). The truth is that the Son can do nothing by himself—or, better, ‘on his own initiative’ (aph’ heautou, lit. ‘from himself’). Though he is the unique Son of God (cf. notes on 1:49), and may truly be called God (1:1, 18; 20:28) and take to himself divine titles (e.g. 8:58) and, as in this context, divine rights (5:17), yet is he always submissive to the Father. Not only does the Son always do what pleases the Father (8:29), but he can do only what he sees his Father doing.….. The Greek text of verses 19–23 is structured around four gar (‘for’ or ‘because’) statements. The first introduces the last clause of v. 19. The thought runs like this: It is impossible for the Son to take independent, self-determined action that would set him over against the Father as another God, for all the Son does is both coincident with and coextensive with all that the Father does. ‘Perfect Sonship involves perfect identity of will and action with the Father’ (Westcott, 1. 189). It follows that separate, self-determined action would be a denial of his sonship. But if this last clause of v. 19 takes the impossibility of the Son operating independently and grounds it in the perfection of Jesus’ sonship, it also constitutes another oblique claim to deity; for the only one who could conceivably do whatever the Father does must be as great as the Father, as divine as the Father.
    Carson, D. A. (1991). The Gospel according to John (251). Leicester, England;  Grand Rapids, Mich.: Inter-Varsity Press;  W.B. Eerdmans.

    “The passage under discussion (Jn 5:19) may be paraphrased as follows.
    “Do you Jews accuse me of transgressing the Father’s sabbath-ordinance and of blaspheming his name by claiming equality with him? The charge is absurd, for in that case the will of the Son would be separate (not merely distinct) from the will of the Father and would even oppose the latter. But as a matter of fact the Son can do nothing whatever (οὐ δύναται … ποιεῖν … ουδέν) of himself, but only what he sees the Father doing; for here, indeed, is the perfect pattern of that which is so often seen on earth; namely, that whatever he (the Father) does that the Son does likewise (here, indeed, there is flawless correspondence).
    Hendriksen, W., & Kistemaker, S. J. (1953-2001). Vol. 1-2: New Testament commentary : Exposition of the Gospel According to John. Accompanying biblical text is author's translation. New Testament Commentary (1:198). Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.

    “Although the Jews had focused their hostility on the equality aspect of Jesus’ relation to the Father (5:18), Jesus countered their anger by highlighting his dependency on the Father (5:19). Here then are two perspectives about Jesus: the powerful divine Son of God and the humble Messenger of God. Christian theology always struggles with these two aspects (sometimes called the two personae) of Jesus. The dangerous tendency today of some is to de-emphasize the divine exalted nature, and the tendency of others is to de-emphasize the self-effacing human nature of Jesus. The key is to find the balance between the two.—New American Commentary  

    “Jesus explains his relationship with the Father through a series of four explanatory clauses (John 5:19-23), each headed by the conjunction gar (variously translated in the NIV). He begins by saying he can only do what he sees the Father doing because [gar] whatever the Father does the Son also does (v. John 5:19). Here the same unity of action is stated, yet it is not in terms of limitation (the Son can only do what he sees the Father doing), but through a mind-boggling claim of completeness. He does everything (ha gar an, translated whatever) the Father does. That is, not only is everything in Jesus' life reflective of God the Father, but also everything the Father does is reflected in Jesus' life. Jesus is claiming to be the full revelation of the Father (cf. John 15:15; John 16:13, John 16:15; John 17:10).
    —The IVP New Testament Commentary Series

    Lastly, in regard to

    Quote
    Why would Jesus say He was going to the Father if He was the Father.

    Well, because Jesus is not the Father! Pretty simple ehhhh? This fundamental superficial elementary error is really beneath you Gene…. state your objections, fine, but please do not stoop, as so many others seem to do, the JW at your door trying to get in a quick cheeky apparently to them anyway 'profound” objection to the Trinity by saying ridiculous things like “if Jesus is God, who ran heaven while Jesus was dead for 3 days?” or “if Jesus is God, then He was the Father, if He was the Father, how could He be going to the Father” such silly, infantile (really this is the best thing that can be said of them) “objections” are not really objections at all, but fundamental misunderstanding of what the trinity teaches, in other words, its a straw man, a caricature, a tilting at windmills by arguing against a position that no Trinitarian believes, or at least, they ought not believe. Jesus is not the Father, OK? The Father is not the Son who is not the Holy Spirit…. etc

    Selah

    blessings,
    Ken

    #111461
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 22 2008,18:19)

    Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2008,19:29)

    Quote
    And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God”. John 20:28

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ”, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1

    while we look forward to that wonderful event when the glory of 'our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” will be revealed. Titus 2:13

    Out of the 7 or 9 scriptures trinitarians take to understand that Jesus is being called God, why is it that 7 or 8 of them are like this, with the word “and” in the middle, as though it could be speaking of God “and” Jesus?  
    Doesn't it bother you that there are literally a thousand scriptures that say in no uncertain terms that Jehovah is God, and yet, almost all the scriptures trinitarians use to support Jesus is God, could be taken more than one way?  It seems we're just playing with comma's here.  
    It seems there should be more scriptures that say: “our God Jesus.”  or, “Jesus, our God.”  Instead, we find these Jesus “and” God scriptures.  
    I'm not saying Jesus is never called God.  I'm saying that he is only called “god” in no uncertain terms a few times in scripture.  (And of course, that word fits him.)


    David,
    Thank you for putting into words what I have been unable to for some reason?  I copying this post for future reference.

    Love,
    Mandy


    I wouldn't know why, its not any objection at all…. see above….

    blessings,
    Ken

    #111462
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (pulivarthy @ Oct. 22 2008,22:24)
    Hi, Mandy,

    pl. see this :
    Data element One: The use of a “composite unity” word for 'one' in the Shema of Deut 6.4-5.

    This is the older translation of the famous Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” There are two words for 'one' in Biblical Hebrew: 'ehad ('one', 'alone', 'unity from parts') and 'yahid' (always means uniqueness/solitary-only one of its kind [cf. used of only son and only daughter, Gen 22.2,12,16; Jer 6.26; Judges 11.34]…not the same word as 'yahad' that often means 'in complete unity, together,united' cf. Deut 33.5, Ps 133.1). This verse is sometimes used by a few groups within the Jewish tradition to assert the numerical unity of God's nature, over against what they perceive as a 'Christian' notion of plurality-in-unity. But this verse either doesn't support their position (i.e., it doesn’t talk about God's nature at all); or actually does the opposite (i.e., by leaving a door open to 'composite unity'). Instead of using YAHID, which MIGHT be of some support to their position, it uses 'EHAD, which lends itself to the plurality position (or certainly allows it). Consider some other passages in which 'EHAD is used:  

    Gen 2.24–the man and his wife will be one (ehad) flesh–clearly a composite unity.

    Ex 26:6, 11–the fifty gold clasps are used to hold the curtains together so that the tent would be a unit (ehad).

    2 Samuel 2:25–many soldiers made themselves into 'one group' (ehad)

    Gen 34:16 –the men of Shechem suggest intermarriage with Jacob's children in order to become 'one(ehad) people'.  

    Joshua 9.2 — the western kings agree to fight Joshua as “one (ehad)  force”

    Josh 10.42– “And Joshua captured all these kings and their lands at one (ehad) time” (NAS) or “All these kings and their lands Joshua conquered in one (ehad) campaign” (NIV)

    Ex 24.3 –“Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one (ehad) voice, and said”

    2 Chr 5.12–“and all the Levitical singers, Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun, and their sons and kinsmen, clothed in fine linen, with cymbals, harps, and lyres, standing east of the altar, and with them one hundred and twenty priests blowing trumpets 13 in unison when the trumpeters and the singers were to make themselves heard with one (ehad) voice to praise and to glorify the Lord”

    Gen 11.6–“And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one (ehad) people, and they all have the same language.”

    So, from the usage data ALONE, 'ehad could at least ALLOW a plurality-within-a-strict-unity (i.e. Trinity).

    As light is made of 7 colours and then becomes a complete/whole light(definition of light), God is one only made of spiriit annd son also.
    pulivarthy


    yep …. great point….. just love Glenn Miller over at A christian Thinktank 😉

    blessings,
    Ken

    #111463
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 23 2008,02:09)

    Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2008,19:29)

    Quote
    And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God”. John 20:28

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ”, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1

    while we look forward to that wonderful event when the glory of 'our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” will be revealed. Titus 2:13

    Out of the 7 or 9 scriptures trinitarians take to understand that Jesus is being called God, why is it that 7 or 8 of them are like this, with the word “and” in the middle, as though it could be speaking of God “and” Jesus?  
    Doesn't it bother you that there are literally a thousand scriptures that say in no uncertain terms that Jehovah is God, and yet, almost all the scriptures trinitarians use to support Jesus is God, could be taken more than one way?  It seems we're just playing with comma's here.  
    It seems there should be more scriptures that say: “our God Jesus.”  or, “Jesus, our God.”  Instead, we find these Jesus “and” God scriptures.  
    I'm not saying Jesus is never called God.  I'm saying that he is only called “god” in no uncertain terms a few times in scripture.  (And of course, that word fits him.)


    David…. Trinitarians and preexistences both use vague and unclear scriptures to support their positions. You can  not get one absolute clear statement to Justify either positions, and you would think they would have a CLEAR and UNAMBIGUOUS ones to justify such an important thing as Jesus' preexistence or his position in the GOD Head.  imo

    peace to you and yours…………….gene


    there are clear references… John 1:1 says that Jesus is God…. pretty straightforward isn't it? Hebrews 1:8 specifically calls the Son “God”…. its not the Trinitarians who are making things complicated, its the anti-Trinitarians who want to deny the plain clear teaching of Scripture…. if the bible says that Jesus is God, I believe it… what about you? :)

    blessings,
    Ken

    #111464
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 23 2008,05:44)
    Hi PV,
    Trinity is not written.
    We do not add to what is written.
    No excuses allowed.


    sure you do… every time you describe your beliefs without using words that appear in the bible you are adding words…. so if the trinitarians are “guuilty of doing this, so is everyone else who appeals to the Scriptures to support their beliefs. I am not sure how many time you have to be told this Nick. This remark is not some profound objection, its not an especially puious objection, so i am not sure what you think you are trying to prove by saying it over and over. Now I realizr tyhat you may be doing just as Hitler said, which was that repeating a lie often enopugh makes people believe it…. I don't know. But I have already shown you that the fact is,

    1) the Scriptures were written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, the very translation you appeal to in support of your belief, WHATEVER those beliefs may be, has words “added” to it, because there is not a one to one correspondence in language from Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek to English. So every time you quote the Bible in English, you are appealing to words that are either not there in the original, or are a person or group of persons opinion as to what English word or words best reanslates the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greel words into English. Got that? Its not difficult Nick.

    2) every time you explain your beliefs to others in your own words, you are simply doing what Trintarians do; eg using words that may not necessarily be found in the English translation of the Bible to convey your understanding of various biblical teachings to others. Otherwise, if this were not the case, and you were not hypocritically insisting that Trinitarians follow a standard for communication that you do not yourself adhere to, you would be quoting biblical verses, AND BIBLICAL VERSES ONLY every single time you communicate. But you don't do this, do you Nick? (this is not a rhetorical question only…. I would really like a straightforward yes or no answer, not another red herring of answering questions with other questions…. sop lets see if you have the capacity to answer questions in this fashion Nick….

    Please show some backbone and integrity here, if an objection has been shown to be faulty, and this has been pointed out to you, REPEATEDLY, to continue to voice this objection shows that you either are being dishonest, or don't really know how to read or understand what you are reading. I don't think its the latter. So do yourself a favor and stop parroting the stupid inane so-called objection “I don't believe in the Trinity because the word “Trinity” is not 'written'.”

    So what is YOUR excuse anyway?

    blessings,
    Ken

    #111465
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 06 2008,20:09)

    Quote (david @ Nov. 06 2008,17:50)
    If someone is constantly referred to as God, and someone else very very rarely has that word applied to them, this should at least make you wonder enough to try to understand what that word means, how it is used in all the scriptures (including the unique ones where it is applied to Jesus, angels, human judges, etc)


    It's funny how obvious that is, but rarely do people see it.

    If a person can't see the obvious, then they have a form of blindness.

    Bias, indoctrination, institutions, pride of the learned, all play their part.


    Yeah… funny…. I say exactly the same sorts of things about poeple like you…. especially things like “If a person can't see the obvious, then they have a form of blindness. Bias, indoctrination, institutions, pride of the learned, all play their part.” :) In fact, I would even go so far as to say that I know how this blindness is caused:

    2 Corinthians 4:4 (ESV) In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    blessings,
    Ken

    #111482
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    Yeah… funny…. I say exactly the same sorts of things about poeple like you…. especially things like “If a person can't see the obvious, then they have a form of blindness. Bias, indoctrination, institutions, pride of the learned, all play their part.”

    Eppy, we're just looking at the math.

    Jehovah–Called God 6 or 7 thousand times.
    Jesus–called God between 3 and 8 times.
    holy spirit–zero times.

    And yet all are equally god?

    #111483

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 08 2008,04:00)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 21 2008,13:31)
    WJ….Jesus is indeed my lord but he is (NOT) my GOD. His GOD is MY GOD and we have the same Father who is GOD. The Fathers Presence was in Jesus via the Holy Spirit , but was not Him, Just as the Fathers Spirit can be in us, but not us. Remember Jesus said He could do (NOTHING) Himself and went to say the (FATHER) in me, He doth the works. God was in Jesus reconciling the world unto Himself, but being in Jesus does not make him Jesus. Why would Jesus say He was going to the Father if He was the Father. Didn't he Quote ” Hear O Israel the LORD our GOD is (ONE) LORD”. The (OUR) included Him also.

    Peace………. gene


    the only reason Jesus said that He could do nothing apart from the Father was because He would not want to. His and the Father's will are one….. again, just as in the “Father is greater than I” type of passages that  some people might want to appeal to as some kind of evidence that the Son is a lesser ontological being than the Father, they do so at the expense of good exegesis and by taking passages out of their context to make them say something that they do not say. The 3 “do nothing” passages are:

    ESV Jn 5:19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you,  the Son  can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father  does, that the Son does likewise.
     
    ———————————————————————-
    ESV Jn 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and  my judgment is just, because  I seek not my own will  but the will of him who sent me.
     
    ———————————————————————-
    ESV Jn 8:28 Jesus said to them, “When you have  lifted up the Son of Man,  then you will know that  I am he, and that  I do nothing on my own authority, but  speak just as the Father taught me.

    ———————————————————————-

    Tolle Lege:

    “The principal thrust of v. 19 is that whatever ‘making himself equal with God’ (v. 18) might mean, for Jesus it does not mean complete or even partial independence from his Father (cf. 7:18). The truth is that the Son can do nothing by himself—or, better, ‘on his own initiative’ (aph’ heautou, lit. ‘from himself’). Though he is the unique Son of God (cf. notes on 1:49), and may truly be called God (1:1, 18; 20:28) and take to himself divine titles (e.g. 8:58) and, as in this context, divine rights (5:17), yet is he always submissive to the Father. Not only does the Son always do what pleases the Father (8:29), but he can do only what he sees his Father doing.….. The Greek text of verses 19–23 is structured around four gar (‘for’ or ‘because’) statements. The first introduces the last clause of v. 19. The thought runs like this: It is impossible for the Son to take independent, self-determined action that would set him over against the Father as another God, for all the Son does is both coincident with and coextensive with all that the Father does. ‘Perfect Sonship involves perfect identity of will and action with the Father’ (Westcott, 1. 189). It follows that separate, self-determined action would be a denial of his sonship. But if this last clause of v. 19 takes the impossibility of the Son operating independently and grounds it in the perfection of Jesus’ sonship, it also constitutes another oblique claim to deity; for the only one who could conceivably do whatever the Father does must be as great as the Father, as divine as the Father.
    Carson, D. A. (1991). The Gospel according to John (251). Leicester, England;  Grand Rapids, Mich.: Inter-Varsity Press;  W.B. Eerdmans.

    “The passage under discussion (Jn 5:19) may be paraphrased as follows.
    “Do you Jews accuse me of transgressing the Father’s sabbath-ordinance and of blaspheming his name by claiming equality with him? The charge is absurd, for in that case the will of the Son would be separate (not merely distinct) from the will of the Father and would even oppose the latter. But as a matter of fact the Son can do nothing whatever (οὐ δύναται … ποιεῖν … ουδέν) of himself, but only what he sees the Father doing; for here, indeed, is the perfect pattern of that which is so often seen on earth; namely, that whatever he (the Father) does that the Son does likewise (here, indeed, there is flawless correspondence).
    Hendriksen, W., & Kistemaker, S. J. (1953-2001). Vol. 1-2: New Testament commentary : Exposition of the Gospel According to John. Accompanying biblical text is author's translation. New Testament Commentary (1:198). Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.

    “Although the Jews had focused their hostility on the equality aspect of Jesus’ relation to the Father (5:18), Jesus countered their anger by highlighting his dependency on the Father (5:19). Here then are two perspectives about Jesus: the powerful divine Son of God and the humble Messenger of God. Christian theology always struggles with these two aspects (sometimes called the two personae) of Jesus. The dangerous tendency today of some is to de-emphasize the divine exalted nature, and the tendency of others is to de-emphasize the self-effacing human nature of Jesus. The key is to find the balance between the two.—New American Commentary  

    “Jesus explains his relationship with the Father through a series of four explanatory clauses (John 5:19-23), each headed by the conjunction gar (variously translated in the NIV). He begins by saying he can only do what he sees the Father doing because [gar] whatever the Father does the Son also does (v. John 5:19). Here the same unity of action is stated, yet it is not in terms of limitation (the Son can only do what he sees the Father doing), but through a mind-boggling claim of completeness. He does everything (ha gar an, translated whatever) the Father does. That is, not only is everything in Jesus' life reflective of God the Father, but also everything the Father does is reflected in Jesus' life. Jesus is claiming to be the full revelation of the Father (cf. John 15:15; John 16:13, John 16:15; John 17:10).
    —The IVP New Testament Commentary Series

    Lastly, in regard to

    Quote
    Why would Jesus say He was going to the Father if He was the Father.

    Well, because Jesus is not the Father! Pretty simple ehhhh? This fundamental superficial elementary error is really beneath you Gene…. state your objections, fine, but please do not stoop, as so many others seem to do, the JW at your door trying to get in a quick cheeky apparently to them anyway 'profound” objection to the Trinity by saying ridiculous things like “if Jesus is God, who ran heaven while Jesus was dead for 3 days?” or “if Jesus is God, then He was the Father, if He was the Father, how could He be going to the Father” such silly, infantile (really this is the best thing that can be said of them) “objections” are not really objections at all, but fundamental misunderstanding of what the trinity teaches, in other words, its a straw man, a caricature, a tilting at windmills by arguing against a position that no Trinitarian believes, or at least, they ought not believe. Jesus is not the
    Father, OK? The Father is not the Son who is not the Holy Spirit…. etc

    Selah

    blessings,
    Ken


    Hi Ken

    Very good points put forth in a better way than I ever could myself though I have spoken the same truths many times before.

    It seems that so many do not look at the whole council of God, by taking all scriptural data together as one.

    Instead they ignore or carry a bottle of white out concerning scriptures as you have so beautifully explained and of which our forefathers also taught.

    I appreciate your stand on the truth and your willingness to take the lonely road here.

    Blessings!

    WJ

    #111484

    Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2008,11:49)

    Quote
    Yeah… funny…. I say exactly the same sorts of things about poeple like you…. especially things like “If a person can't see the obvious, then they have a form of blindness. Bias, indoctrination, institutions, pride of the learned, all play their part.”

    Eppy, we're just looking at the math.

    Jehovah–Called God 6 or 7 thousand times.
    Jesus–called God between 3 and 8 times.
    holy spirit–zero times.

    And yet all are equally god?


    Hi David

    The Spirit does not speak of himself.

    However, God is Spirit, God is Holy, and there is only “One Spirit”.

    The Lord is that Spirit!

    Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there [is] liberty. 2 Cor 3:17 KJV

    Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. 2 Cor 3:17 NWT

    David, even your own Bible says YHWH is the Spirit.

    So what are you going to do with this scriptural data.

    As far as Yeshua and Jehovah being mentioned as God.

    As Ken has said, 1 scripture calling Yahshua God especially with the definite article should be enough.

    So when you open your eyes by taking off the Arian glasses and start with the premises that the Father cannot be seen by the human eye and yet God/YHWH/Jehovah was seen by men, then you will know that Yeshua also is YHWH spoken of in the OT scriptures that appeared to men.

    You might want to start Here.

    And also Here!

    Yayshua also claimed to be God as Ken has pointed out, another place is here…

    If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

    Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:7-9

    WJ

    PS, I lack for time. Since your post is so long on the Coptic thread I will be responding soon to your comments.

    #111488
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    However, God is Spirit, God is Holy, and there is only “One Spirit”.

    The Lord is that Spirit!

    “But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.”

    “As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit,”

    “to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healings by that one spirit, “

    “For truly by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink one spirit.”

    “because through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the Father by one spirit.”

    “One body there is, and one spirit,”

    “that YOU are standing firm in one spirit, with one soul striving side by side for the faith of the good news,”

    Quote

    Quote
    However, God is Spirit, God is Holy, and there is only “One Spirit”.

    The Lord is that Spirit!


    “Making his angels spirits,” (Ps 104:4)
    “So the angel answered and said to me: “These are the four spirits of the heavens….” (Zech 6:5)
    “gave them authority over unclean spirits” (Mat 10:1)

    JOHN 4:24
    “God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.””

    True, God is a spirit. He creatured multitudes of spirit creatures.

    The word spirit has many meanings, which you confuse. When they were “made to drink one spirit” was it the “one spirit” God?

    Quote
    David, even your own Bible says YHWH is the Spirit.


    I'm not sure which scripture you are referring to when you say “the spirit” as if there is “only one spirit”?
    You never quoted it. Yes, my Bible and yours say Jehovah is “The Spirit.” Sure. Ok. And? How is that connected to what you quoted:

    Jehovah–Called God 6 or 7 thousand times.
    Jesus–called God between 3 and 8 times.
    holy spirit–zero times.

    And yet all are equally god?

    [/QUOTE]As Ken has said, 1 scripture calling Yahshua God especially with the definite article should be enough.

    Quote

    Sure, if you close your eyes to the fact that words have meaning, I suppose. I just think it's odd that if they are equally God, why is this so unproportionally unclear.

    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:7-9

    Quote

    And, continuing on… we see what he meant:
    “Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to YOU men I do not speak of my own originality; but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works. 11 Believe me that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me;”

    PS, I lack for time. Since your post is so long on the Coptic thread I will be responding soon to your comments.[QUOTE]
    I'm gone for the weekend. So, this should give you some time, WJ. I'm hoping you can find more information on the Coptic. I'm surprised I hadn't found that last article you posted.

    #111506
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2008,11:49)

    Quote
    Yeah… funny…. I say exactly the same sorts of things about poeple like you…. especially things like “If a person can't see the obvious, then they have a form of blindness. Bias, indoctrination, institutions, pride of the learned, all play their part.”

    Eppy, we're just looking at the math.

    Jehovah–Called God 6 or 7 thousand times.
    Jesus–called God between 3 and 8 times.
    holy spirit–zero times.

    And yet all are equally god?


    here is the way the math works…. if the holy, inspired, infallible Scriptures call Jesus “God” 1 time, He is God. what…. lol… you think that the number of times a being is called “god” increases or decreases their “godness” ROFLOL!!!

    blessings,
    Ken

    #111508
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2008,11:49)
    Eppy, we're just looking at the math.

    Jehovah–Called God 6 or 7 thousand times.
    Jesus–called God between 3 and 8 times.
    holy spirit–zero times.

    And yet all are equally god?


    Not to mention the judges of Israel and angels being called theos.

    The Trinity Doctrine is a false conclusion to what scripture says about God and the way scripture uses theos and elohim.

    John 1:1 doesn't teach a Trinity. It mentions 2, the Logos and God.

    People should just let scripture have its say instead of intermingling vain imaginations and doctrines of devils.

    #111509
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 08 2008,04:41)
    Yeah… funny…. I say exactly the same sorts of things about poeple like you…. especially things like “If a person can't see the obvious, then they have a form of blindness. Bias, indoctrination, institutions, pride of the learned, all play their part.” :) In fact, I would even go so far as to say that I know how this blindness is caused:

    2 Corinthians 4:4 (ESV) In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    blessings,
    Ken


    Hi Ken.

    In a different time and different politics, I wonder if you would approve of me being burned at the stake for my words and belief?

    #111510
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 08 2008,18:13)
    here is the way the math works…. if the holy, inspired, infallible Scriptures call Jesus “God” 1 time, He is God. what…. lol… you think that the number of times a being is called “god” increases or decreases their “godness” ROFLOL!!!

    blessings,
    Ken


    OK, then what about the judges of Israel and angels?

    Or are they the exception to the rule? If they are the exception to the rule, then your statement makes no sense whatsoever.

    You said if Jesus is called God/theos once, then he is God. Well Jesus is not the only one who was called theos/god.

    Maths has a funny way of showing up things that don't add up.

    #111513
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    ken ,
    though trinity is not there in the bible, jesus is the truth,jesus is life.therefore, in this defective world no one could be truthful other than God no one could be a life giver except God.therefor jesus is my lord and my God.change your suppositions.
    peace and happiness
    babu

    #111517
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    PV………If TRINITY is not in the bible as you say, then why try to make it be?

    peace to you babu…………….kgene

    #111518
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 08 2008,22:40)

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 08 2008,04:41)
    Yeah… funny…. I say exactly the same sorts of things about poeple like you…. especially things like “If a person can't see the obvious, then they have a form of blindness. Bias, indoctrination, institutions, pride of the learned, all play their part.” :) In fact, I would even go so far as to say that I know how this blindness is caused:

    2 Corinthians 4:4 (ESV) In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    blessings,
    Ken


    Hi Ken.

    In a different time and different politics, I wonder if you would approve of me being burned at the stake for my words and belief?


    T8…..i feel the same way, I wonder who would get the biggest fire me or you. :(

    love and peace to you and yours……………gene

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