John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,901 through 1,920 (of 26,007 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #111338
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    1st john 5:7 There are three that give witness about Jesus. 8 They are the Holy Spirit, the baptism of Jesus and his death. And the three of them agree.
    babu

    #111340
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (pulivarthy @ Nov. 03 2008,20:12)
    1st john 5:7 There are three that give witness about Jesus. 8 They are the Holy Spirit, the baptism of Jesus and his death. And the three of them agree.
    babu


    What makes you think that the witness of the “water” is his baptism? Any proof?

    #111342
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Irene………Scholars have been debating that scripture for two thousand years, it not as easy as you would think. I believe it is important to understand what the meaning of the word GOD is and from what i have read most Hebrew scholars say it means (strength or power) a descriptor about a person but not the person himself. When we refer to the person himself we should use the word LORD (He Exists) and when we say the LORD GOD, it should be rendered (HE EXISTS WITH POWERS). Notice Jesus quoted it this way “Hear O Israel the LORD our GOD is ONE LORD”, notice Jesus describes Him as LORD, OUR GODis ONE LORD.
    Anyway Irene i think its more complicated then you may think.

    love to you and yours…………………..gene

    #111348
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 04 2008,00:43)
    Irene………Scholars have been debating that scripture for two thousand years, it not as easy as you would think. I believe it is important to understand what the meaning of the word GOD is and from what i have read most Hebrew scholars say it means (strength or power) a descriptor about a person but not the person himself. When we refer to the person himself we should use the word LORD (He Exists) and when we say the LORD GOD, it should be rendered (HE EXISTS WITH POWERS). Notice Jesus quoted it this way “Hear O Israel the LORD our GOD is ONE LORD”, notice Jesus describes Him as LORD, OUR GODis ONE LORD.
    Anyway Irene i think its more complicated then you may think.

    love to you and yours…………………..gene


    Gen Maybe it it is complicated to you, but not to me. With God's Holy Spirit all is possible. So what you are saying every time it says God you worry if it is the power of God etc.? We are not debating what God is, but that He is present in this verse with the flesh is with God. So if I say Peter is with God, you would understand. But not when I say the Word that became flesh was with God? That is ridiculous. I do not listen to men, no matter what kind degree they have. I am not a respecter of men, but of God. Johm does not desribe what God iis in these verses , only that He is present. And even if He did, would that make a diffrenence, it still would be God. The Almighty God, the Lord God. The Word was still with Him and He (Word) became flesh.
    Besides Rev. 3:14 and Col. 1: 15-16-17. And then it says in verse 18 that He had preeminece in all. First to be born and first to be resurrected.
    Peace and Love Irene
    P.S. If you still not agree, that its for me.

    #111355
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Perhaps John was out in the wilderness too long? Or stranded on that island long enough to lose his sense?
    John 1:1 means something different to nearly everyone who reads it.
    I say it was meant to confuse.
    God hasn't cleared it up yet.
    Therefore we are not responsible to know……

    It's quite ridiculous, imo, to try and decifier these old words of ancient men.
    Did Paul even have two witnesses? Maybe he just wanted more power and killing Christians wasn't enough for him.

    This is Mandy throwing in the towel…………..

    #111363
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (pulivarthy @ Nov. 03 2008,20:12)
    1st john 5:7 There are three that give witness about Jesus. 8 They are the Holy Spirit, the baptism of Jesus and his death. And the three of them agree.
    babu


    You quote: 1st john 5:7 which is called the Comma Johanneum.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum.

    Not to divert the discussion away, I will replicate a post made on this quite a while ago. If you feel to talk about it, then you can do so here:
    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….7;t=736

    Taken from
    http://www.tegart.com This is for reference only, and I am not endorsing the conclusion found at the end of this article.

    ========

    A Simple Outline regarding I John 5:7

    by Doug Kutilek

    I John 5: 7
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, The Word, and the Holy Ghost:  and these three are one.

    It is generally agreed that v. 7 has no real authority, and has been inserted.

    Two questions: 1. What does this note mean?  and, 2. Is Scofield right?

    1. Scofield is stating that this verse was not an original part of I John, that the Apostle did not write these words and the Holy Spirit did not inspire them, but that they were inserted into the text of I John at a later date.  This opinion is the view of the vast majority of experts on the subject of the original text of the New Testament.
    2. Is Scofield right?  To answer this, we must ask, what is the evidence?

    First, some essential background information

    • I John and all of the NT was originally written in the Greek language.
    • from the 1st century until the printing of the NT in the early 16th century (more than 1,400 years), all copies of the NT were hand-written manuscripts.

      1. Scribes, subject to human limitations, made various mistakes in producing copies, most being accidental changes, though some were intentional.
      2. While God did not preserve the copists from making any mistakes, He did providentially limit the degree of variation so that the doctrinal content of the NT was not affected by the variations introduced.  The doctrinal teaching of all 1,500 printed editions of the Greek NT is identical.
      3. Most scribal errors are immediately recognizable, and the text of the NT can be established with 99.5% certainty, and the remaining .5% does not affect doctrine.

    We have a much higher degree of certainty of the exact original wording of the NT than any other writing from the ancient world.  More than 5,000 Greek manuscripts have been preserved (one less than 50 years later than the original writing of John), plus translations into nearly a dozen ancient languages, plus more than 85,000 quotations in Christian writers from the 1st to the 10th centuries.

    The evidence regarding I John 5:7

    1. Greek manuscripts-about 300 existing Greek manuscripts contain the book of I John.  Of these manuscripts, only 4 (manuscript numbers 61, 629, 918,
      2318) contain the disputed words of v.7.  All four are very late manuscripts (16th, 14th or 15th, 16th, and 18th centuries A.D. respectively); none gives the Greek text exactly as it appears in printed Greek NTs, and all 4 manuscripts give clear evidence that these words were
      translated into Greek from Latin.
      Four additional manuscripts (88, 12th century; 221, 10th; 429, 16th; 636, 15th) have the disputed words copied in the margin by much later writers.
    2. Ancient writers: no Greek-speaking Christian writer before the year 1215 A.D. shows any knowledge of the disputed words.  Not once are these words quoted in the great controversy with the Arians (over the Deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity) in the 3rd and 4th centuries; they certainly would have been quoted if they had existed in any Greek manuscript of that period. The disputed words are quoted as Scripture only by Latin-speaking writers, and only after the middle of the 5th century A.D.
    3. Ancient translations: the disputed words are not found in any of the ancient translations of the NT made in the 2nd-10th centuries A.D.–Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Georgian, Gothic, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavic–except in Latin.
      The words are found in some manuscripts (but not the earliest) of the Old Latin version, and in many manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate (but not the earliest).

    Conclusion:

    the evidence of every kind is consistent and clear: the disputed words of I John 5:7 have no claim as an original part of John's letter, but were introduced into Greek from Latin in the very late Middle Ages.

    How did the disputed words arise in Latin?

    Some Latin-speaking scribe or preacher in North Africa in the 3rd or 4th century probably drew an analogy between the three witnesses of I Jn. 5:8 (the Spirit, and the water, and the blood), and the three persons of the Trinity, and wrote out his idea in the margin of his manuscript.  A later scribe inserted the words from the margin into the text, and from there the insertion gradually spread to other manuscripts until they were included in a majority of medieval Latin manuscripts of I John.

    How did the disputed words find there way into printed copies of the Greek NT?

    The first published Greek NT was edited in 1516 by Catholic priest, scholar, and humanist Erasmus in 1516. This edition did not include the disputed words.  A
    revised edition in 1519 also did not include these words. Erasmus was severely criticised by other Catholic priests for not including in Greek these words which were well-known to them from the Latin.  Erasmus said that the words were left out simply because he did not find them in any of the Greek manuscripts he had examined, and promised to insert them if they were found in even one Greek manuscript.

    An Irish monk deliberately fabricated such a manuscript to meet Erasmus' requirement.  This manuscript (no. 61) was copied from an early manuscript which did not contain the words.  The page in this manuscript containing the disputed words is on a special paper and has a glossy finish, unlike any other page in the manuscript.  On the basis of this one 16th century deliberately falsified manuscript, Erasmus inserted the disputed words in his 3rd, 4th, and 5th editions of the Greek NT, though he protested that he did not believe the words were genuine.

    Nearly all printed Greek NTs from Erasmus until the 19th century were simply reprints of Erasmus' 4th or 5th edition, and so the words continued to be printed in Greek as part of I John even though there is no sufficient evidence for their inclusion.  Recent editions of the Greek NT follow the manuscript evidence and therefore do not insert the words.

    How did the disputed words find their way into English Bibles?

    1. The earliest English New Testament, the translation of Wycliffe in the 1380s, was made from medieval Latin manuscripts, and so it includes the disputed words, though it reads “son” instead of “word.”
    2. Tyndale's translation of 1525 was based on Erasmus' 3rd edition and so it included the words.  In the 2nd and 3rd editions of his translation, Tyndale placed the disputed words in parentheses to show that their genuineness was doubtful.
    3. Several editions of the NT edited by Tyndale's assistant Miles Coverdale also placed the disputed words in parentheses or smaller type or both to show that they were disputed.
    4. Jugge's 1552 edition of Tyndale's NT omitted
      the parentheses and printed the words in standard type, a practice followed in later English Bibles, including the KJV (based on Beza's 1598 Greek NT, a virtual reprint of Erasmus' 4th edition).
    5. Recent conservative translations of the NT (ASV, NASB, NIV) delete the disputed words entirely or put them in a footnote because the evidence is conclusive that they were not an original part of John's letter.  [Verse numbers were not added until 1551 in a Greek NT based on Erasmus' 4th edition]

    Conclusion:

    Yes, Scofield is right.

    Question: If the words are not genuine, does this affect the doctrine of the Trinity?

    Answer: not in the least.  Those Christian writers of the 2nd-4th centuries who compiled from Scripture the true orthodox doctrine of the Trinity (namely, that the one true God exists in three equal persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) did so without any reference to the disputed words.  If their biblical proofs were correct and sufficient and based on undisputed passages, and they certainly were, then the doctrine stands unmoved.

    ========

    Note: I am not necessarily endorsing all that is contained in this writing, I offer it as a reference only. In particular I do not agree with the last paragraph.

    #111369
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 03 2008,11:10)
    Adam….if we apply Jeff Benners interpretation to John 1:1……> it would be like this …> in the beginning was the word and the word was with Elohim (powers) and the word was Elohim (powers). Elohim simple means (POWERS) we need to remember things were spoken into existence, in the beginning. Benner adds an interesting point to what John may have meant.

    love and peace to you and yours……….gene


    Amen to that post brother Gene and I agree with that explanation on Jn 1:1. The 'word' belongs the same One God which is nothing but His own expression to show His power in this universe.

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam

    #111376
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    gene, adam &n31
    Exodus 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, [both] of man and of beast: it [is] mine.
    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    as we see in rom 8:29, jesus was before adam.It means hewas before all creation.As we carry children in our blood (semen produced out of blood) God was carrying his only child/son in his spirit(as blood and flesh can not inherit heaven, only spirit can inherit).Therefore God had already begotten his invisible son in his spirit and God was carrying him all the time and allowed him to put on flesh and live among us.God displayed his handiwork throgh jesus,his word, as now also God displays through prophets, gospel preachers etc..
    babu

    #111377
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    pv…….you quote….> Col 1:15…> who is the image of the (invisible) God, the firstborn of every creature, is not quoted right. It should read …..> He is “the image the image of the invisible God”, the firstborn (OVER) all creation. First image is (NOT) the REAL Person themselves but one who images Him, second Jesus is said to be firstborn (OVER) all creation, that means He is at the head of all, a position, and has nothing to do with time of his berth. And even if you applied it to His berth it simply would mean He was first to be born from the dead over all creation, but does not imply first ever born, to be born is not the same as being created. Being born shows a human process. imo

    peace……………………..gene

    #111390
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 05 2008,02:00)
    pv…….you quote….> Col 1:15…> who is the image of the (invisible) God, the firstborn of every creature, is not quoted right. It should read …..> He is “the image the image of the invisible God”, the firstborn (OVER) all creation. First image is (NOT) the REAL Person themselves but one who images Him, second Jesus is said to be firstborn (OVER) all creation, that means He is at the head of all, a position, and has nothing to do with time of his berth. And even if you applied it to His berth it simply would mean He was first to be born from the dead over all creation, but does not imply first ever born, to be born is not the same as being created. Being born shows a human process. imo

    peace……………………..gene


    Gen  You are interpeting it the way you like and not how it is wtitten. Firstborn is firstborn nothing else and nothing less.
    Just as Rev. 3:14 ' These says the Amen the Faithful and True Witness, the beginnning of the creation of God.”
    How are ypu going to interpet this verse?
    Irene

    #111395
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 05 2008,02:00)
    pv…….you quote….> Col 1:15…> who is the image of the (invisible) God, the firstborn of every creature, is not quoted right. It should read …..> He is “the image the image of the invisible God”, the firstborn (OVER) all creation. First image is (NOT) the REAL Person themselves but one who images Him, second Jesus is said to be firstborn (OVER) all creation, that means He is at the head of all, a position, and has nothing to do with time of his berth. And even if you applied it to His berth it simply would mean He was first to be born from the dead over all creation, but does not imply first ever born, to be born is not the same as being created. Being born shows a human process. imo

    peace……………………..gene


    Hi brother Gene,
    You have uttered my words on Col 1:15 stating that Jesus is the true image of God and he is not God himself but a man made in the image of God. Also 'he is first born' means he is first in rank means our elder brother in God's family. I hope others will understand this simple truth.

    Thanks and love to you
    Adam

    #111398
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    Gene
    you have not read fully what I wrote.I was explaining the meaning of rom:8-29.It implies he was before adam.More over, if you are believing in born again (answer for Nicodamus question to our Lord), Jesus was born in spirit in the beginning and born as flesh again
    (reborn) by God's plan/love/grace.There are two births for any man, as such Jesus has also two birhts one in spirit and one in flesh.
    babu

    #111413
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    PV……..if you understood the term firstborn in the Hebrew mind set is a position, and not necessarily the order of berth. The expression of Jesus being firstborn (OVER) all creation is a positional statement, not a time of berth, the word (OVER) should make that clear.imo

    peace to you……………..gene

    #111415
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Tiffany @ Oct. 23 2008,08:13)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 21 2008,12:05)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 21 2008,11:04)
    WJ……Jesus said He had a God, do you think it was Himself? He said I am going to (MY GOD) and YOUR GOD, (MY FATHER) and YOUR FATHER. He also said for (THOU) art the (ONLY) true GOD. The word (ONLY) means no other, The word (THOU) means not the person saying it. How many plain scriptures do you have to through away to try to get your Theology across?

    peace……….gene  :)


    Hi GB

    I guess he is not your Lord and God either.

    But he was Thomas's, Peter's and Paul's

    And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God“. John 20:28

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1

    while we look forward to that wonderful event when the glory of 'our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” will be revealed. Titus 2:13

    I think I would rather believe them.

    WJ


    John 1:1 and other Scriptures in John show us that the Word is called God.  But He is not the Almighty God. The Father who is above all, is.
    Ephesians 4:6
    Peace and Love Irene


    (Rev 1:7-8 ESV) Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. (8) “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”, ….. “this says that someone “is coming.” Who? Verse 7 says it is someone who was “pierced.” Who was it that was pierced when he was nailed up to die? Jesus! But verse 8 says that it is Jehovah God who “is coming.” Could it be that there are two who are coming? No! Verse 8 refers to “the One who … is coming.”
    Revelation 1:8 states clearly that Jehovah God is the Alpha and the Omega. Now note what he says at Revelation 22:12–13: “ ‘Look! I am coming quickly … I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last.… ’ ” So, Jehovah God is coming quickly. But notice the response when he says it again: (Rev 22:20 ESV) He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!”
    Who is speaking in Revelation 2:8? “These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again.… ” Obviously, it is Jesus. Who was Jesus identifying himself as being, when he called himself “the First and the Last”? This is how Almighty God described himself in the Old Testament. Jesus knew that the apostle John, who wrote the Revelation, and later Bible readers would all remember these verses: “ ‘… I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last. Moreover, my own hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my own right hand extended out the heavens … ’ ” (Isa. 48:12–13). And: “ … I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior” (Isa. 43:10–11).
    Note, too, that the expression the first and the last is used this way to refer to the Jehovah God in Revelation 22:13: “ ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.’ ” Yet John also records: “.… And he laid his right hand upon me and said: ‘Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever … ’ ” (Rev. 1:17–18)….
    Remember, we have read that Jehovah God is the One who is coming, the One who is coming quickly, the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, and the only Savior. We have also read that our Savior Jesus Christ is the one who is coming, the One who is coming quickly, the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last.
    We should have no problem reaching the right conclusion, namely that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, eg (Col 2:9 ESV) For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.” Or, according to the New International Version, “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”
    Reed, D. A. (1997, c1986). Jehovah's Witnesses : Answered verse by verse. (102). Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.

    #111418
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 23 2008,09:56)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 23 2008,09:30)
    Hi WJ,
    So from the principle of sons are always exactly like their father in nature
    you sidestep to sons behave like their father?
    Why?


    NH

    The question was…

    Can you give me one example in scripture where the “Sons of God” who have divine qualities or attributes are called 'Theos”, God, other than the Father and Yahshua?

    But you can't even find one example of a being with any divine qualities or charactoristics of God in the scriptures that is called “Theos” or God. Not even an Angel of God? ???

    WJ


    no… they/he can't…. and, btw, good point!!

    Jesus is THE monogenes….. 3439 μονογενής [monogenes /mon·og·en·ace/] adj. From 3441 and 1096; TDNT 4:737; TDNTA 606; GK 3666; Nine occurrences; AV translates as “only begotten” six times, “only” twice, and “only child” once. 1 single of its kind, only. 1a used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents). 1b used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God.” (Strong, J.)

    He is the monogenes/only begotten son in that he is a unique son of God…. this is what the Scripture simply says… there are other sons of God, true, but they are not sons (and daughters) in the same way Jesus is, He is one of a kind, utterly unique, sui genris…. you will not find any other being in Scripture ever referred to as monogenes, like Jesus is. There are adopted sons and daughters, and then there is like begetting like, the monogenes Son, God eternally begetting a Son, who is God, just like His Father.

    “1. In the NT μονογενής (monogenes) occurs only in Lk., Jn. and Hb., not Mk., Mt. or Pl. It is thus found only in later writings. It means “only-begotten.” Thus in Hb. Isaac is the μονογενής of Abraham (11:17), in Lk. the dead man raised up again at Nain is the only son of his mother (7:12), the daughter of Jairus is the only child (8:42), and the demoniac boy is the only son of his father (8:42).11

    2. Only Jn. uses μονογενής to describe the relation of Jesus to God. Mk. and Mt. have ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός; Pl. uses τὸν ἑαυτοῦ υἱόν at R. 8:3, τοῦ ἰδίου υἱοῦ at R. 8:32, and πρωτότοκος at R. 8:29; Col. 1:15, 18, but not μονογενής. The further step taken by Jn. to describe Jesus corresponds to the fact that believers who as children of God are called υἱοὶ θεοῦ—the same word as is applied to Jesus—in Mt., Pl. etc., are always called τέκνα θεοῦ in Jn., 1:12; 11:52; 1 Jn. 3:1, 2, 10; 5:2, while υἱός is reserved for Jesus. Jn. emphasizes more strongly the distinction between Jesus and believers and the uniqueness of Jesus in His divine sonship. It is not that Jesus is not unique in this sonship for Mt., Pl. etc. also. His Messiahship proves this. But Jn. puts it in an illuminating and easily remembered formula which was taken up into the baptismal confession and which ever since has formed an inalienable part of the creed of the Church. To μονογενής as a designation of Jesus corresponds the fact that God is the πατὴρ ἴδιος of Jesus, “Jn. 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God”; for ἴδιος means to be in a special relation to Jesus which excludes the same relation to others.

    μονογενής occurs in Jn. 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 Jn. 4:9. What is meant is plainest in Jn. 3:16 and 1 Jn. 4:9. Because Jesus is the only Son of God, His sending into the world is the supreme proof of God’s love for the world. On the other side, it is only as the only-begotten Son of God that Jesus can mediate life and salvation from perdition. For life is given only in Him, Jn. 5:26. But the fact that He is the only-begotten Son means also that men are obligated to believe in Him, and that they come under judgment, indeed, have done so already, if they withhold faith from Him, 3:18. μονογενής is thus a predicate of majesty. This is true in Jn. 1:18. Here we are to read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. As the only-begotten Son Jesus is in the closest intimacy with God. There is no other with whom God can have similar fellowship. He shares everything with this Son. For this reason Jesus can give what no man can give, namely, the fullest possible eye-witness account of God. He knows God, not just from hearsay, but from incomparably close intercourse with Him. In 3:16, 18; 1 Jn. 4:9; 1:18 the relation of Jesus is not just compared to that of an only child to its father. It is the relation of the only-begotten to the Father. Similarly in Jn. 1:14: δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρὸς, (And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.) His glory is not just compared with that of an only child; it is described as that of the only-begotten Son. Grammatically both interpretations are justifiable. But the total usage of μονογενής is very emphatically against taking ὡς μονογενοῦς as a mere comparison.

    In Jn. 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 Jn. 4:9 μονογενής denotes more than the uniqueness or incomparability of Jesus. In all these verses He is expressly called the Son, and He is regarded as such in 1:14. In Jn. μονογενής denotes the origin of Jesus. He is μονογενής as the only-begotten.
    What Jn. means by ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός in detail can be known in its full import only in the light of the whole of John’s proclamation. For ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός is simply a special form of ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ. When Jn. speaks of the Son of God, he has primarily in view the man Jesus Christ, though not exclusively the man, but also the risen and pre-existent Lord. The relation of the pre-existent Lord to God is that of Son to Father. This comes out indisputably in 17:5, 24. Jesus is aware that He was with God, and was loved by Him, and endued
    with glory, before the foundation of the world. This is personal fellowship with God, divine sonship. It is true that neither in the prologue, nor 8:58, nor c. 17 does Jn. use the term “son” for the pre-existent Lord. But He describes His relation to God as that of a son. (note 16: One can hardly argue from expressions like “God sent his Son,” 3:17; 1 Jn. 4:9, 10; cf. Jn. 3:16, since here the term “son” might be used proleptically, with ref. only to the man. But we see from 1 Jn. 4:14: “The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world,” that by His sending He who was already the Son became the Saviour, so that there is no room for doubt that the pre-existent Lord was already the Son. The fact that Jn. also uses ὁ λόγος for the pre-existent Lord gives us no right to assume that this λόγος was for him a power of God standing in an impersonal relation to Him). To maintain that in Jn. the pre-existent Lord is only the Word, and that the Son is only the historical and risen Lord, is to draw too sharp a line between the pre-existence on the one side and the historical and post-historical life on the other. In Jn. the Lord is always the Son. Because He alone was God’s Son before the foundation of the world, because the whole love of the Father is for Him alone, because He alone is one with God, because the title God may be ascribed to Him alone, He is the only-begotten Son of God.

    It is not wholly clear whether μονογενής in Jn. denotes also the birth or begetting from God; it probably does, Jn. calls Jesus ὁ γεννηθεὶς ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ, 1 Jn. 5:18 “We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.” Though many will not accept this, he here understands the concept of sonship in terms of begetting. For him to be the Son of God is not just to be the recipient of God’s love. It is to be begotten of God. This is true both of believers and also of Jesus. For this reason μονογενής probably includes also begetting by God. To be sure, Jn. does not lift the veil of mystery which lies over the eternal begetting. But this does not entitle us to assume that he had no awareness of it. Johannine preaching and doctrine is designed to awaken faith, 20:30f., not to give full and systematic knowledge. Hence it does not have to dispel all mysteries.
    Theological dictionary of the New Testament. 1964-c1976.(G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley & G. Friedrich, Ed.) (4:739-741). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

    blessings,
    Ken

    #111419
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    Hi Gene,
    I think you are carrying your children not in your blood, but in your mind only.I think you are not born again like a child in spirit.There is a birth in spirit and in flesh as well.
    babu

    #111420
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2008,19:29)

    Quote
    And Thomas answered and said unto him, “My Lord and my God”. John 20:28

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior, Jesus Christ”, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1

    while we look forward to that wonderful event when the glory of 'our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” will be revealed. Titus 2:13

    Out of the 7 or 9 scriptures trinitarians take to understand that Jesus is being called God, why is it that 7 or 8 of them are like this, with the word “and” in the middle, as though it could be speaking of God “and” Jesus?  
    Doesn't it bother you that there are literally a thousand scriptures that say in no uncertain terms that Jehovah is God, and yet, almost all the scriptures trinitarians use to support Jesus is God, could be taken more than one way?  It seems we're just playing with comma's here.  
    It seems there should be more scriptures that say: “our God Jesus.”  or, “Jesus, our God.”  Instead, we find these Jesus “and” God scriptures.  
    I'm not saying Jesus is never called God.  I'm saying that he is only called “god” in no uncertain terms a few times in scripture.  (And of course, that word fits him.)


    Thank you for openly and honestly admitting that the Scriptures do in fact say that Jesus is God. And you know what….? I have such a high regard and respect and reverence for God's word that all it has to do is say something 1 time, and I am bound to accept it…. so if the Scriptures only said Jesus was God once, then guess what? That's it…. Jesus IS God.

    As far as the “and” business is concerned, kai has some nuances that don't always mean we must think of it as a rigid disjunction…. eg “2532 καί [kai /kahee/] conj. Apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; GK 2779; 9280 occurrences; AV translates as “and” 8182 times, “also” 515 times, “even” 108 times, “both” 43 times, “then” 20 times, “so” 18 times, “likewise” 13 times, not translated 354 times, translated miscellaneously 46 times, and “vr and” once. 1 and, also, even, indeed, but. Additional Information: Frequency count based on 1894 Scrivener Greek New Testament
    (Strong, J.)

    So to use your example of Thomas we could put it “My Lord also my God.” or “My Lord even my God.” or “My Lord also my God.” or “My Lord likewise my God.” or since kai is often not translated at all it could read “My Lord my God.”

    In any case, the word “and” itself in the English to not be a separator of concepts, but rather to build on or to say the same thing as a rhetorical device of repetition. For instance (2 Peter 1:11 ESV) For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
    In this case “and” is not separating 2 different concepts, as if 'Lord” is one person and “Savior” has to be someone else. So Jesus can be (and is!!) both Lord and God. And, since other Scripture plainly calls Jesus God, this agrees with other Scripture and is sound exegesis and interpretation.

    blessings,
    Ken

    #111421
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    (Rev 1:7-8 ESV) Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. (8) “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”, ….. “this says that someone “is coming.” Who? Verse 7 says it is someone who was “pierced.” Who was it that was pierced when he was nailed up to die? Jesus! But verse 8 says that it is Jehovah God who “is coming.” Could it be that there are two who are coming? No! Verse 8 refers to “the One who … is coming.”
    Revelation 1:8 states clearly that Jehovah God is the Alpha and the Omega. Now note what he says at Revelation 22:12–13: “ ‘Look! I am coming quickly … I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last.… ’ ” So, Jehovah God is coming quickly. But notice the response when he says it again: (Rev 22:20 ESV) He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!”
    Who is speaking in Revelation 2:8? “These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again.… ” Obviously, it is Jesus. Who was Jesus identifying himself as being, when he called himself “the First and the Last”? This is how Almighty God described himself in the Old Testament. Jesus knew that the apostle John, who wrote the Revelation, and later Bible readers would all remember these verses: “ ‘… I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last. Moreover, my own hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my own right hand extended out the heavens … ’ ” (Isa. 48:12–13). And: “ … I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior” (Isa. 43:10–11).
    Note, too, that the expression the first and the last is used this way to refer to the Jehovah God in Revelation 22:13: “ ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.’ ” Yet John also records: “.… And he laid his right hand upon me and said: ‘Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever … ’ ” (Rev. 1:17–18)….
    Remember, we have read that Jehovah God is the One who is coming, the One who is coming quickly, the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, and the only Savior. We have also read that our Savior Jesus Christ is the one who is coming, the One who is coming quickly, the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last.
    We should have no problem reaching the right conclusion, namely that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, eg (Col 2:9 ESV) For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.” Or, according to the New International Version, “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”
    Reed, D. A. (1997, c1986). Jehovah's Witnesses : Answered verse by verse. (102). Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.

    Irene, he's wrong, and didn't spend too much thought on this. See the Alpha/Omega thread:
    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=380

    #111422
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    Thank you for openly and honestly admitting that the Scriptures do in fact say that Jesus is God. And you know what….? I have such a high regard and respect and reverence for God's word that all it has to do is say something 1 time, and I am bound to accept it…. so if the Scriptures only said Jesus was God once, then guess what? That's it…. Jesus IS God.

    But, at the same time, Eppy, wouldn't you find it odd that the holy spirit who is also equally “god” is never called “god” or that Jehovah who is also equally God, is very very clearly called God thousands of times?
    If someone is constantly referred to as God, and someone else very very rarely has that word applied to them, this should at least make you wonder enough to try to understand what that word means, how it is used in all the scriptures (including the unique ones where it is applied to Jesus, angels, human judges, etc)

    Quote
    so if the Scriptures only said Jesus was God once, then guess what? That's it…. Jesus IS God.

    Here's what I think:

    JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD.

    (How did the angel announcing his birth refer to him?)

    LUKE 1:32
    “This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High.”  (Compare Ps 83:18, where it says that Jehovah alone is the Most High.)
    LUKE 1:34
    “For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son.”

    (Who does Jehovah God’s testimony tell us Jesus is?)

    MATTHEW 3:17
    “Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.””

    (What did John the Baptist bear witness to regarding Jesus?)  

    JOHN 1:34
    “And I have seen [it], and I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.””

    (How did Nathanael identify Jesus?)

    JOHN 1:49
    “Nathańael answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.””

    (Jesus himself asked who they thought he was.  With this response of Peter, Jesus pronounced him happy, because his Father had revealed this to him.)

    MATTHEW 16:16
    “In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.””

    (What did Martha believe about Jesus?)

    JOHN 11:27
    “She [Martha] said to him: “Yes, Lord; I have believed that you are the Christ the Son of God.””

    (Why did John write what he did?  What did he want us to believe?)

    JOHN 20:31
    “But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.”  

    (Did John bear witness that Jesus was God Almighty, or God’s Son?)

    JOHN 1:34
    “I have borne witness that this one is the Son of God.”

    (According to John, if we are to remain in union with God, what must confess?)

    1 JOHN 4:15
    “Whoever makes the confession that Jesus Christ is the Son of God . . .”

    (According to John, what must we have faith in–that Jesus is God, or the “Son of” God?)

    1 JOHN 5:5
    “Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?”
    (It seems that John bore witness that Jesus was the “Son of” God, that he wrote what he did so that we would believe that Jesus was the “Son of” God, telling us to have faith that Jesus is the “Son of” God, and to confess that Jesus is the “Son of” God.)

    (What did the apostle Peter preach about Jesus?)

    ACTS 9:20
    “he [Peter] began to preach Jesus, that this One is the Son of God.”

    (The demons certainly knew “exactly” who Jesus was: the Holy One “of” God, and hence, not God Almighty himself.)

    MARK 1:24
    “What have we to do with you, Jesus you Nazarené? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.”  
    MATTHEW 8:29
    “What have we to do with you, Son of God?”
    MARK 3:11
    “Even the unclean spirits, whenever they would behold him, would prostrate themselves before him and cry out, saying: “You are the Son of God.”“
    LUKE 4:41
    “Demons also would come out of many, crying out and saying: “You are the Son of God.”

    (He was not saying that he was equal to God, but rather “he was also calling God his own Father,” and in the minds of the Jews, this was tantamount to making himself equal with God.)

    JOHN 5:18
    “On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also CALLING GOD HIS OWN FATHER, making himself equal to God.”

    (What did the chief priest charge Jesus as saying he was? Surely if there was indication that he was claiming to be God or those around him believed this, then that accusation would have been made. These were the ones who were accusing them of anything they could, making stuff up, bringing in false witnesses.  Surely if he was claiming to be God himself, they would have capitalized on this.)

    MATTHEW 26:59-63
    “So the high priest said to him: “By the living God I put you under oath to tell us whether you are the Christ the Son of God!”“
    LUKE 22:70
    “Are you, therefore, the Son of God?”
    MATTHEW 27:43
    “let Him [God] now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, ‘I am God’s Son.’”

    (What did the Jews tell Pilate Jesus had made himself?  If Jesus was claiming to be God, surely they who wanted him done away with would have charged him with this.)

    JOHN 19:7
    “The Jews answered him: “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself God’s son.””

    (So they were charging him with saying he was the “Son of” the God, and Jesus himself said: “I am.”)

    MARK 14:61,62
    “Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: “Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?” Then Jesus said: “I am.”  

    (Who did Jesus himself say he was?)

    JOHN 10:36
    “do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?”

    (Miraculously walking on water and calming the winds moved his disciples to what conclusion?)

    MATTHEW 14:33
    “Then those in the boat did obeisance to him, saying: “You are really God’s Son.””

    (How did those mocking him while he was dying refer to him?)

    MATTHEW 27:40
    “If you are a son of God, come down off the torture stake!”

    (What conclusion did the army officer there at Jesus death reach?)

    MATTHEW 27:54
    “when they saw the earthquake and the things happening, grew very much afraid, saying: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”“
    MARK 15:39
    “Now, when the army officer that was standing by with him in view saw he had expired under these circumstances, he said: “Certainly this man was God’s Son.””

    (What was Jesus declared to be?)

    ROMANS 1:4
    “but who with power was declared God’s Son.”

    So we have an angel, demons, Jehovah, Jesus, John the Baptist, Nathanael, Peter, Martha, John, Paul, mockers of Jesus, an army officer who saw Jesus die, the Jews, all making very plain what they believed Jesus to be, the “Son of” God, or “God’s Son,” and hence, not God, but someone related to God, the “Son of” God.

    And yes, obviously, the very Son of God, who has been granted all authority and power, by his Father, is “mighty” hence, the word “god” (MIGHTY ONE/POWERFUL ONE) obviously fits.  

    But, simply being called “God” does not in itself equate Jesus with Jehovah God Almighty.

    #111432
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Nov. 06 2008,17:50)
    If someone is constantly referred to as God, and someone else very very rarely has that word applied to them, this should at least make you wonder enough to try to understand what that word means, how it is used in all the scriptures (including the unique ones where it is applied to Jesus, angels, human judges, etc)


    It's funny how obvious that is, but rarely do people see it.

    If a person can't see the obvious, then they have a form of blindness.

    Bias, indoctrination, institutions, pride of the learned, all play their part.

Viewing 20 posts - 1,901 through 1,920 (of 26,007 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account