John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 18,961 through 18,980 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #809797
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    is flawed as it is in itself a doctrinal belief.

    Yes, being kind to one another should be a doctrinal belief for example and so should be the command to lave one another. But these should primarily be actions.

    I mean, it is one thing to believe that we should be kind, but quite another to actually be kind.

    The latter being way more important as I am sure you will agree.

    Actions speak louder than words as the saying goes.

    But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

    #809798
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi T8,

    1) Yes (ref. Isaiah 44:24)

    2) No, God created Adam and Eve.
    “And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind”
    My parents created me, my Grand parents did NOT created me through my parents, and neither did God.

    3) Yes, see point #2.

    If you are going to try to force your belief to sound correct, you are
    going to have to ask two and three part questions like MikeBoll use to ask.
    But as I pointed out in the HotSeat rules thread, that this practice is most unfair. (Link)

    Thanks for answering these questions clearly.

    I see contradictions in your answers though.

    You say that God created ALL things alone.

    But then you basically say that you were not created, but clearly you are a created being and you are part of ALL things surely.

    If you were not created, then how did you come to exist? If you are not part of all that exists, then how is it that you exist.

    And no, I do not think I am being unfair. This is a fair and logical direction to understand what you exactly believe. Nothing disingenuous about it. It is a clear and honest line of enquiry.

    #809799
    942767
    Participant

    Hi:

    I posted the following scripture from the NASB because in reading it here it made more sense than how it read in the KJV.  In these verses of scripture, it appears that they are saying that all things are made for God.

    Hebrews 2:

    9 But we do see Him who was made [j]for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

    10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the [k]author of their salvation through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are [l]sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying,

    But we do know the the new creature is definitely being made through Jesus Christ, and we know that no man can come to the Father but by him.

    Hebrews 3:

    3 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; 2 [a]He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty
     

     

    #809800
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    EdJ, I think you are over-reacting.

    Now instead of God creating all things by himself and alone through Jesus (death on a cross),

    There is nothing wrong with me trying to find out how you get over the contradiction that shows itself to me in your argument. I need to address the elephant in the room.

    You are a created being, and God created all things alone. How do you reconcile that. Is that explained by the sentence I have quoted?

    If so, that is not written anywhere that I know of. Could you kindly point out where and I will consider it seriously.

    My view is that God created all things, even you, but that he does it through agents. That does not mean that he didn’t create because the agent is not the creator.

    Likewise God is love and love is of God. All love comes from God but that does not mean that I cannot love my children. But it means that if there was no God, I could not love my children. Of course I agree that there would also be nothing if there was no God, but that is besides the point.

     

    #809801
    942767
    Participant

    But does that make him the Logos? No,I don’t understand it that way, the Logos pertains to him, most definitely, but it is not him as some pre-existent sentient person.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #809808
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    What was with God in the beginning?

    WITH God + BECAME flesh = Jesus Christ

     

    #809811
    942767
    Participant

    What was with God in the beginning?

    WITH God + BECAME flesh = Jesus Christ

    John 1 tells us that when God began to create he had a plan and all things were made by the last Adam who is “the express image of God’s person”. What God had spoken from Genesis 1 and throughout the OT pertaining to the coming of Christ became a reality when Jesus was born into this world.

    Galatians 4:

    4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    1 Peter 1:

    18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    #809814
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I appreciate you explaining your view here.

    I can see at least one assumptions and so will call that out.

    John 1 tells us that when God began to create he had a plan and all things were made by the last Adam who is “the express image of God’s person”.

    It doesn’t actually say anywhere that all things were made through the Second Adam from what I know. It does say the Word and the Son of God, thus I believe that instead. While Jesus is of course the son of God and the second Adam, I also believe he is the Word of God. Not talking about God’s own attribute, but as a being who is most like God who possesses the nature and qualities of this invisible God in full. This Jesus is full of truth, grace, life, and yes even logos. He is after all called THE Truth, THE Life, THE Logos. The second Adam is more of a description that fulfills what the first Adam failed to do, but even more than that too. God did not create all things through the first Adam, and I do not see that he also did it through the Second Adam in the sense of what that actually means. Of course the one who is the Second Adam, namely Jesus is certainly the one by whom God made all things through.

    Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    While this is not an assumption and is clear scripture, of course I agree with it. But I am not necessarily on board with why you quote it.

    God is not without knowledge. Before the cosmos he knew he was going to create the Universe or the heavens and earth. He also knew each one of us that he created and/or begat. He obviously knew that these living beings would need free will in order to be truly free agents, rather than a mere extension of God himself.

    But free will comes at a cost. That is, they could choose NOT God. Knowing this, God foreordained before the cosmos that the one by whom he created all things through would be the one by whom all things would be redeemed through if or when it came to that. It makes sense that if God made all through him, then he has the capacity to redeem all through him too. We know God is smart. He had this plan already worked out before anything even happened. He is not blind to see the possible consequences of his own creation and risks in giving beings free will. Satan can oppose him all he likes, but God has already got a plan for every eventuality and all worked out before he made the cosmos.

    I suppose you could say it was just a matter of time when one of God’s creatures rebelled. But perhaps it was possible that it could also never happened too. Regardless, God knew in the least that this gift of choice also came with risks. He had a plan to manage that risk. That plan is now in action. This is the worse case scenario playing out, but for those that love God, he has turned this into a massive opportunity by allowing us to be tested and rewarded as a result. This is our chance to build godly character, patience, and perseverance. Even Jesus learned about obedience. Of course if we can be obedient and love in this age, then all the more with the perfect ages to follow.

    #809815
    kerwin
    Participant

    T8,

    It doesn’t actually say anywhere that all things were made through the Second Adam anywhere. It does say the Word and the Son of God, thus I believe that instead.

    You are thinking more like than a First Century Jedeo-Christian, whether Gentile or Jew by inheritance. All I know is that Philo of Alexandria is known to call the logos the Son of God.
    Philo’s logos

    d. First-born Son of God

    The Logos has an origin, but as God’s thought it also has eternal generation. It exists as such before everything else all of which are secondary products of God’s thought and therefore it is called the “first-born.” The Logos is thus more than a quality, power, or characteristic of God; it is an entity eternally generated as an extension, to which Philo ascribes many names and functions. The Logos is the first-begotten Son of the Uncreated Father: “For the Father of the universe has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he [Moses] calls the first-born; and he who is thus born, imitating the ways of his father, has formed such and such species, looking to his archetypal patterns” (Conf. 63).

    By your own testimony both the logos by which all things are created and title the Son of God could be two names for the same thing. A thing that everyone agrees that God used to create all things that have been created.

    Nick claims essentially the same thing though he credits the Spirit instead but the Spirit is so entwined with the Word that it is written that the sword of the Spirit is the word of God.

    You do not have to place someone at creation that the OT does not speak of since Genesis testifies God created all that has been created by his word.

    #809816
    Ed J
    Participant

    But as I pointed out in the HotSeat rules thread, that this practice is most unfair. …(Link)

    Thanks for answering these questions clearly.

    I see contradictions in your answers though.

    You say that God created ALL things alone.

    [b]But then you basically say that you were not created[/b], but clearly you are a created being and you are part of ALL things surely.

    If you were not created, then how did you come to exist? If you are not part of all that exists, then how is it that you exist.

    And no, I do not think I am being unfair. This is a fair and logical direction to understand what you exactly believe. Nothing disingenuous about it. It is a clear and honest line of enquiry.

    Hi T8,

    Not a problem. And I will attempt to explain why there is no contradiction.

    God created Adam and Eve with the ability to produce after their kind.
    Therefore Seth was created by Adam and Eve rather than God.

    God indeed created all things alone and by himself,
    and man and women are among those things.
    So there is no contradiction.

    [b]Note: I did not say that I wasn’t created.[/b]
    What I said was: “I was created by my parents, not God.”

    _______________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #809821
    Ed J
    Participant

    (1)There is nothing wrong with me trying to find out how you get over the contradiction that shows itself to me in your argument. I need to address the elephant in the room.

    (2)You are a created being, and God created all things alone. How do you reconcile that. Is that explained by the sentence I have quoted?

    (3)If so, that is not written anywhere that I know of. Could you kindly point out where and I will consider it seriously.

    (4)My view is that God created all things, even you, but that he does it through agents. That does not mean that he didn’t create because the agent is not the creator.

    (5)Likewise God is love and love is of God. All love comes from God but that does not mean that I cannot love my children. But it means that if there was no God, I could not love my children. Of course I agree that there would also be nothing if there was no God, but that is besides the point.

    Hi T8,

    1) I agree and that’s what I was attempting to explain in my last post.
    2) I have explained this point in my last post.
    3) I posted three verses together to illustrate the fit of God of creating all things through Jesus’D.B.R. [color=white]…[/color][b][size=15]([url=heavennet.net/forums/topic/is-jesus-the-logos/#post-809780]Link[/url])[/size][/b]
    4) I think you’re an agent (–he he he)
    5) Rant

    _______________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #809824
    Ed J
    Participant

    What was with God in the beginning?

    WITH God + BECAME flesh = Jesus Christ

    Hi T8,

    That certainly is a fit, but not the only fit.
    God’s “HolySoirit” was also with God in the beginning.
    WITH God + was made flesh at Jordan (John 1:14) = “HolySpirit”

    And please don’t forget the perfect fit of John 1:1:
    and the “HolySpirit” was “GOD”! (ref. Matt 1:18, Luke 1:35 Acts 5:3-4)

    “why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the HolySpirit”
    “thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.” (Acts 5:3,4)
    = the HolySpirit is God

    “she was found with child of the HolySpirit” (Matt 1:18)
    “therefore also that holy thing which shall be born
    of thee shall be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35)
    = HolySpirit is GOD: The Father of Jesus Christ

    Conclusion: “Ho Logos” = Spirit

    _______________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #809826
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You do not have to place someone at creation that the OT does not speak of since Genesis testifies God created all that has been created by his word.

    I do not have to do that. It is just a matter of believing these and other scriptures. It’s really that simple.

    Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saintsto whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.…

    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was…”

    #809827
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Note: I did not say that I wasn’t created.
    What I said was: “I was created by my parents, not God.”

    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    So this verse does not apply to you?

    #809828
    942767
    Participant

    Hi t8:

    I appreciate you explaining your view here.

    I can see at least one assumptions and so will call that out.

    John 1 tells us that when God began to create he had a plan and all things were made by the last Adam who is “the express image of God’s person”.
    It doesn’t actually say anywhere that all things were made through the Second Adam from what I know. It does say the Word and the Son of God, thus I believe that instead.

    The definition of the Greek word “Logos” is:

    Definition:
    of speech
    a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea

    And the scripture states that all things were created by him, and we know that him is speaking about Jesus.

    And 1 Co 15 we have the following scripture:

    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    The following verse of scripture states that God made all things by him, and states that he is the express image of God’s person.

    (And so, you may see it as an assumption, but this is supported by these scriptures and others as well).

    As for why I quoted the verse that states that he was foreordained, well that is what the scriptures state.

    And the following scripture states that “eternal life was with the Father” and was manifest in these last times:

    1 John 1:

    1 John 1King James Version (KJV)

    1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

    2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    But Ok, now it is your turn to show me where the scriptures state that Jesus pre-existed his birth into this world as a sentient person, and when you do, using the scriptures that I know you will use, please show me how this all works with what the scriptures state relative how Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. This teaching is totally confusing, just as the doctrine of “the trinity”.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #809829
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi 94.

    Could you edit your comment and Quote my words, so they do not look like yours. It is a hard post to read at present.

    Thanks 🙂

    #809830
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    In the beginning[b] was the Word,
        and the Word was with God,
        and the Word was God.
    He was in the beginning with God.
    All things came to be through him,
        and without him nothing came to be.
    What came to be through him was life,
        and this life was the light of the human race;
    the light shines in the darkness,
        and the darkness has not overcome it.

    Ed J, so you are not part of this because what?

    From what I can tell, you came to be, so this must include you right.

    So God created all things alone, but through his Word. His Word was the agent. That does not mean that God did not create it all though.

    Your way out is to deny that you were created by God, rather it was your parents alone. Face it, your parents did not create you, they were the agency. They do not know how to create a car probably, let alone a living person from nothing.

    Your view about you not being created by God does not fit in any way or context into John 1:1.

    Are you the exception?

    Here is what I think.

    God created all things. Here is how he did it. He created or begat the main agency which is the Word. From there other agencies were created or begotten including human parents. God started it all and thus it is all his work. The agencies are merely doing that which God is doing through them.

    So God did create you, but through agency. God creating all things does not mean that he personally used his heavenly hammer and fashioned it all out himself, every atom and so forth. He is smarter than that. He made things to reproduce after their own kind. He created it all in a very smart and efficient way.

    When a human programmer created a virtual world, do you think they place every pixel by hand? No, they use programs and algorithms  within the basic logic of the world. You see God doing it for example in the water system. Clouds become rain, become rivers, evaporate back into clouds and so the cycle goes again.

    #809831
    Ed J
    Participant

    Note: I did not say that I wasn’t created.
    What I said was: “I was created by my parents, not God.”

    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    So this verse does not apply to you?

    Hi T8,

    Why yes it does, and on two accounts…

    1) Through God creating Adam and Eve my parents were able to create me.
    and
    2) Through Jesus’ death on the cross God created all things alone and by himself.

    The reason I believe this is because it fits with no verses to discount it.
    Keep in mind that I have developed this view of doctrine from over 40 yrs of study.

    _______________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #809832
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    1) Through God creating Adam and Eve my parents were able to create me.

    I doubt that your parents created you, that would make them your creator.

    However, your statement contradicts your other teaching in God creating all things alone.

    God did not create all things alone according to you because your parents created you.

    You are arguing with yourself now.

    I should leave you to slog this out with yourself. Let me know the winner and I can continue the conversation with the winning EdJ if necessary.

    #809835
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.…

    This is a passage about predestination and the mastery is “how human being can receive the righteousness that is like God’s”. The answer is easy in hindsight. It is through faith in Jesus Christ from first to last.

    The one who significantly misinterprets a passage cannot believe that passage.

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