John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 161 through 180 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #5138
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To WIT,

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 05 2005,17:49)
    Zechariah 14:
    “4And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east.  And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south.”

    Either this will literally happen, in the last days, and the Mount of Olives will be ripped in two, or this is a metaphor for some extraordinary event that will take place.  In either case, I have no problem with Yahweh accomplishing this Himself.  Why do you?


    The point is that God dwells in his son. So God is in Christ. But you cannot say that God is finite or that he is over there or he has left heaven and come to the earth or he is now fully contained in a body. God is eternal and he wants to dwell in all. He only withdraws himself from all because of sin.

    So yes God does all things, but through his representives. The only thing I can think of that the Father did through no one was speak about his son in the presence of witnesses. So sure God can do anything that he wants and is not incapable.

    But it is written: No man has seen God and no one can see him.  But it is also written that every eye shall see him. Who? Christ, not God.

    God's ways are not our ways, so we shouldn't think of God as a man or a body. He is Spirit and invisible and he wants to dwell inside all of his (good or redeemed) creation.

    Perhaps in that way we make God smaller than he is by saying that he will come fully in a body to earth. Where as I would teach that he dwells in Christ and he is seated on his throne in heaven and by his Spirit he can dwell anywhere that is good.

    #5145
    liljon
    Participant

    1 tim 3:16 And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the Gentiles, was believed on in the world, and was received up in glory.
    God created world Alone
    Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the Lord that redeems you, and who formed you from the womb: I am the Lord that performs all things; I stretched out the heaven alone, and established the earth.

    #5146
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi liljon,
    Jesus revealed the Father to men. He was filled with God's Spirit.
    “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father”
    In fact Jesus revealed all aspects of the Father's nature and powers.
    Coll 2.9″ In Christ the fulness of the Deity lives in bodily form”

    How do you interpret Heb 1.2 and 10 and Jn 1.3?

    #5152
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,

    Quote
    Why be God and do the work yourself?

    Genesis 2:
    “2And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”

    T8,

    Quote
    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 05 2005,17:49)
    Great.  I assume that the principles that you are using to interpret the scripture are…well, scriptural.  So can you point me to at least two scriptures that say that Yahweh does all His work through agents?

    Try these:

    Ephesians 2:10
    For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Colossians 1
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
    17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

    Nice job.  However, even if we assume that these passages are talking about a pre-existent Son, this still falls short of proving the validity of the scriptural tool that Nick is using.  These passages would only imply that Yahweh made all things through His son, not that He does all things through His son.  In fact, you and Nick both say that He uses other agents in His work, and I would agree with that.  So to prove that Nick's tool is valid, we need to see a verse that says that Yahweh does all things, in creation, through agents alone, and never Himself.

    Nick and T8,

    Let me clarify one thing.  I did NOT mean to suggest that Yahweh would come down in a physical body and stand on the Mount of Olives when I was discussing the Zechariah passage.  I assumed that we all agreed that Yahweh is not a physical being.  All references to Yahweh having body parts are metaphoric, in my opinion.  However, to say that His feet will tread somewhere, in my opinion, is to say that He is going to personally accomplish some act through His supernatural powers.  For example, in the following passage, which we have all quoted a thousand times to dispell the notion of the Trinity, who is actually doing the work:

    Psalm 110:1
    The LORD said to my Lord,
          “Sit at My right hand,
          Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

    Is Yeshua both sitting at Yahweh's right hand and also defeating his own enemies?  I think it is clear that Yahweh intervenes in His creation personally – not in a physical body, but by means that He alone understands.

    Quote
    Your interest seems to be to tear down and not to build?

    That's a quote from Nick, but I think you've said a similar thing T8.  I don't disagree with your assessment.  Less than a year ago, I discovered that my faith was based more on tradition than Truth, and I have been turning over every rock in my faith to make sure that it is from God's word and not from men.  I personally believe that some of the things that you both teach do not stand up under the scrutiny of the entire voice of scripture, and I have been on a quest to prove it.  However, I have not been offering anything beneficial in exchange, so I think I may take my searching offline until I truly have solid footing in my own faith, and can share it constructively with others.  I thank you both for opening yourselves up to my criticisms, and I pray that we all end up on the same side some day.  I will certainly keep checking the forum, as I have found lots of wisdom espoused in here, but I will keep my posting to a minimum for the next little while.  Keep up the faith!  :D

    #5153
    liljon
    Participant

    But God Created he world ALONE meaning Jesus is God
    Heb 1:2,10 and John 1:3 means exacltly what is says

    he created through jesus.

    #5155
    NickHassan
    Participant

    I understand. But was he talking about himself when he spoke of the Father. Are you saying that when creation occured Yeshua did not exist or he was called the Father then. It gets so confusing don't you see?

    #5167
    liljon
    Participant

    Yeshua always existed
    Micah 5:2
    Isaiah 40:28
    and is YHWH so he is our father but when he came to earth he became a Son and sumbmitted himself
    and to a Trinitarian it wouldn't be confusing because “God the Father” wouldn't be the same “person” as Jesus

    #5168
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WIT,
    Ps 110
    ” The Lord said to my lord
    'Sit at MY Right Hand until I make your enemies your footstool'
    The scepter of YOUR power the Lord will stretch forth from Zion
    'Rule in the midst of your enemies '
    Yours is princely power in the day of your birth, in holy spendour ;before the daystar like the dew, I have begotten you.
    The Lord has sworn and he will not repent ;
    'you are a priest forever according to the order of Melchisidek'
    The Lord is at YOUR right hand ;he will crush kings on the day of His wrath..”

    Beautiful words

    So this is about Yeshua after his ascension. Only then was he raised to sit at the Right Hand of the Father[Eph 1.20, Heb 1.3,12.2, Heb 10.2.1 Pet 3.22,Coll 3.1etc]

    It also speaks of the begetting of the Son of God in spendour in princely power prior to the creation of the Sun[daystar].

    God is the source of all power and is not inactive. He responds to needs whether spoken in prayer or not and He organises the defeat of the enemies of Yeshua before he comes as King[110.1-2].Yeshua showed God would reply to prayer through sending angels to fight for him in Mt 26.53.

    But God remains in Heaven.

    But he also supplies the power to Yeshua with power as His power is also at the right hand of Yeshua[v8]. Yeshua will rule with the Power of God.

    Ps 2 says”let us conspire against the Lord AND HIs anointed”
    “I am in my Father and my Father is in me”

    #5169
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 07 2005,17:21)
    Nice job.  However, even if we assume that these passages are talking about a pre-existent Son, this still falls short of proving the validity of the scriptural tool that Nick is using.  These passages would only imply that Yahweh made all things through His son, not that He does all things through His son.  In fact, you and Nick both say that He uses other agents in His work, and I would agree with that.  So to prove that Nick's tool is valid, we need to see a verse that says that Yahweh does all things, in creation, through agents alone, and never Himself.


    To WIT,

    I am not sure what the tool is that you are talking about, but if we look at the way the visions in the Book of Revelation were presented to John we can see that it was an angel that gave it to him. So God used an angel, but we can also see that he used his son and it was the son that gave it to the angel.

    I think that this shows us an important pattern that when understood we can reconcile those scriptures that talk about seeing God and the others that say that no one can see God.

    I am not God that is for sure and I can only speak on his behalf that which he has shown me. But it appers to me that the Father is capable of anything, but he chooses to use his creation regarding things in creation. He seems to involve his son in all matters regarding creation and authorities after all God created all things for him. (Things as in created). That includes us and the physical universe and perhaps more as there a surely things that God created that we do not know about.  

    I cannot see the point of debating this. I acknowledge that God can do anything and is not restricted. But I also see in scripture God expressing his will through willing created subjects, but primarily in his son whom he begat before the worlds existed.

    For one thing, God created the universe through his son and for him. So even from the very beginning God was doing his stuff through someone.

    To me it's like we are ants and God is the President. (An underestimation of course). So how can an ant understand a president without some kind of mediator. Jesus is that mediator between us an God. Jesus is the vine of which we are the branches. So I fail to see how a branch has direct contact with God without going through the vine.

    All our substance comes from the vine and the vine got it's life from God. So even God's life is filtered to us through his son. The son declared “I am the life”.

    I just see a divine order that is largely ignored because of the Trinity doctrine. The Trinity doctrine makes people believe that they can reach any member of this 3 person God. But Jesus said when we pray to the Father do it in his name. He also said to do all in his name.

    I think the reason for this is taught by Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:3
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    It also says that in John 10:1
    “I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.

    So it appears that a man who wants to reach God his own way is considered as a robber. So what happens when we look at it the other way, as God reaching down to man. Does he not reach down to us through his son too?

    #5170
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi WIT,

    I have a post for you on the previous page too.

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 07 2005,17:21)
    Let me clarify one thing.  I did NOT mean to suggest that Yahweh would come down in a physical body and stand on the Mount of Olives when I was discussing the Zechariah passage.  I assumed that we all agreed that Yahweh is not a physical being.  All references to Yahweh having body parts are metaphoric, in my opinion.  However, to say that His feet will tread somewhere, in my opinion, is to say that He is going to personally accomplish some act through His supernatural powers.  For example, in the following passage, which we have all quoted a thousand times to dispell the notion of the Trinity, who is actually doing the work:


    I agree and how does he do it? Through Christ. As it is written, “every eye shall see him whom they have pierced”.

    This was my point.

    #5171
    Anonymous
    Guest

    [B]I'd like to comment on “logos”, which is “divine intellegence expressed”…in the beginning was the logos = in the beginning God's intellegence was expressed…His intellegence was predestined because He saw the end from the beginning

    (Isa 46:9. 10) “remember the former things of old: for I am God, & there is none else; I am God, & there is none like me,  declaring (or speaking, which is His intellegence expressed) the end from the beginning (predestination), and from ancient times (the beginning) the things that are not yet done (predestined), saying, My cousel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure”

    we are told what His pleasure is & His reason for creation in (Gen 1:3)…”let there be light”…God is light & He desired “His express image”…His express image is His son & His son was predestined from the beginning & in the light which is the son He made all things…all things were made for the son, His express image…Adam was not that son but was made in his likeness…Adam & all mankind was made for the son…it was predestined

    (psalm 2:8) “ask of Me (YVAH, the Father), & I will give you the heathen for your (the son, Messiah) inheritance”…the son, Messiah, is the hier of all creation & it was predestined & covenanted from the beginning…(heb 1: 2) God “in these last days (the fullfillment of time) has spoken unto us by His son, whom He has appointed heir of all things” [U][/U]

    “in the beginning was the logos (divine intellegence expressed which was the predestination of the son, ie, the light), and the logos was with God (the light with which & for which He made all things, the anointing set apart for the son, Messiah), & the logos was God (His express image which He predestined to be begotten of flesh)

    God spoke the light into existance from the beginning & the light was in Him before He spoke it & the light was the beloved son, the anointed one (anointed to be one with God & fully joined with light by light, ie, that anointing)…when God brought forth the seed of the woman who was a virgin out of covenant with Abraham & called in Isaaac, that light was made flesh & the logos spoken by God was begotten as He said from the beginning

    Jesus (Yahshua) was the purpose for all things & all things were made for him & by the anointing that was his before he was ever concieved

    God bless us all with understanding & unity that we may fulfill the prayer of our Lord Messiah to be one with the Father as he is…it is our gift of salvation for which we were predestined to worship & glorify God & our Lord Messiah, who bought us with his own life's blood

    #5172
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2005,03:12)
    Hi WIT,

    I have a post for you on the previous page too.

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 07 2005,17:21)
    Let me clarify one thing.  I did NOT mean to suggest that Yahweh would come down in a physical body and stand on the Mount of Olives when I was discussing the Zechariah passage.  I assumed that we all agreed that Yahweh is not a physical being.  All references to Yahweh having body parts are metaphoric, in my opinion.  However, to say that His feet will tread somewhere, in my opinion, is to say that He is going to personally accomplish some act through His supernatural powers.  For example, in the following passage, which we have all quoted a thousand times to dispell the notion of the Trinity, who is actually doing the work:


    I agree and how does he do it? Through Christ. As it is written, “every eye shall see him whom they have pierced”.

    This was my point.


    HI WIT…why dont you believe that God has a body of His own? I dont believe He is a flesh body but He is an incorruptible spirit body & He has a spirit which is holy…we are made in His image & likeness…to be made in His image means He has a body which has form & Ezekial saw Him (ezek 1: 26-28)…His appearance was that of a man, which means He has the form of a human body…Jesus was His express image begotten of flesh

    I'm not sure how to use this site as I have only posted to one forum

    #5173
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote (t8 @ Jan. 06 2005,08:48)
    To WIT,

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 05 2005,17:49)
    Great.  I assume that the principles that you are using to interpret the scripture are…well, scriptural.  So can you point me to at least two scriptures that say that Yahweh does all His work through agents?


    Try these:

    Ephesians 2:10
    For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Colossians 1
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
    17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

    It appears that God uses Christ in all (not some) created things, good things that is. That includes the universe and principalities. So if we are obedient to Christ then we are obedient to God. If we honour the son, we honour the Father.

    Sure God may be doing stuff outside of creation that we have no idea about. But within creation he does all through his son because that is what he chose. He created all things through Christ and for him. Love is the real reason that God does this. He created all things for his son and so he also did it all through him.

    We in turn are to be obedient to Christ as he is our head. God is Christ's head. So if I am obedient to Christ I am obedient to God.

    Do you understand that God works through his son. He even sent his own Spirit to us, through his son.


    I wrote to Wit when it I was answering t8…sorry

    may I comment on YVAH, God, only working through agents? God's holiness would consume this earth if He were to enter it's atmosphere is what the scriptures seem to imply…this is another reason I dont believe that Jesus (Yahshua) is “the” holy diety Himself

    noone could touch or look upon him & live if he were…however, Jesus was the substance of light made flesh & God is light…the light was not made…it was breathed out of God in the beginning…when God said “let there be light” He was speaking by His divine intellegence (wisdom), called “the logos” & He was predestinating our Lord Messiah to be His express image by whom He made all things & for whom He made all things…His only begotten son is the heir of all creation & it was predestined from the beginning, but it was fullfilled when Jesus was begotten, ie, the word was made flesh…in other words God predestined for His son to be born of flesh & He spoke it from the beginning

    God gave dominion to man (Adam) but man was never made to be soveriegn…he was made to be governed by God (the kingdom of God, which is His Spirit)…the Spirit of God is holy…it is His breath which gives life to all creation…when He breathes out His word it is law…everything He created is upheld by His law & God interviens by His law in the earth (His law is His kingdom of which He is king…it isnt a democracy)

    when Jesus was born the kingdom of God was made near in the earth…Messiah is king of God's kingdom over the works of His hands…that is why there is no other way to YVAH, who is God alone…He chose His king & anointed him before he was ever born & foretold of his coming through His prophets

    (heb 1:1,2) “God, who at sundry times & in divers manners (signs, wonders, prophesies, types & shadows, etc) spoke in time past (before Jesus was born) unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days (after the birth of Jesus) spoken to us by His son, who He has appointed heir of all things (Messiah is heir of all creation & it was predestined by God from the beginning, therefore, Messiah is Lord of all), by whom also He (YVAH, the father, creator of all) made the worlds”

    this does not mean that Jesus pre-existed with God or was God, the creator…when God spoke, “let there be light” this was the purpose for creation & He made all things by that light & that light was the anointing of the anointed one (Messiah) & all things were made for the light, which was God's express image…when Jesus was begotten according to prophesy fullfilling all prophesy concerning him, he was that light born of flesh…when he was born he was “the” heir of heaven & earth…everything was made for him & he came to recieve his inheritance

    not only is heaven & earth his but we are his inheritance…he chose to purchase us with his own life's blood so we could be bone of his bone & flesh of his flesh (recreated, born again, made new)

    Jesus was able to ascend & descend into heaven & he knew God face to face…there was no separation because he was one with God, because he was the light of God made flesh…he had no sin & it is sin that separates from God…he was able to be in the world & fully be in the presence of God at the same time at all times…when he cried “my God, why have you forsaken me?” it was our sins that brought separation & he had never been separated before..that separation caused the very elements of earth to be moved

    there was darkness, the earth shook, the viel was rent, the temple fell…it was so terrifying that the roman soldier cried, “surely this was the son of God”…I believe (isah 24-27) is a prophesy of what happened the moment the son of God was separated from the father for the 1st & last time of his life (due to our sins)

    God has chosen to do all things by the son…all judgement & dominion has been given to him..the wrath of the lamb will be Jesus' final whipping of the moneychangers of the earth because of his indignation for the father & his brethren who have suffered in his name…the day will come when all things have been subdued to God (YVAH) by the son that the son will submit also & God will be all in all (1cor 15:28)

    blessings & peace to all

    #5174
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    No man has seen God as many scriptures tell us. Ezekiel saw a vision of God [Ez 1.1,26], similar to the vision John saw in Rev 4.3[and Is 6].Both say” a figure with the appearance of a man”and the mention of a rainbow of His glory surrounding Him.

    #5175
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    Are you saying the firstborn and only begotten Son of God did not have a separate nature and being from the Father in the beginning?
    The other sons of God did [Jb 38.7] They shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were laid by the Son of God as agent for the Father.

    #5178
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    The book of Genesis tells us the Earth was created before light.
    Gen 1f” In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was formless and void and darkness was over the surface of the deep;and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

    Then God said 'Let there be light' and there was light”

    The sons of God were created before the earth[Jb38]
    The Only begotten Son of God was with God in the beginning before the creation of all things.

    Jn 1.4 “In him was life;and the life was the light of men.”

    He was the light. But not the physical light of natural creation but the light of and for men-wisdom, knowledge, truth.

    All things were created through the Son of God and for him [Heb 1,Jn 1]and that includes the earth too does it not?

    #5179
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,02:12)
    Hi Dora,
    Are you saying the firstborn and only begotten Son of God did not have a separate nature and being from the Father in the beginning?
    The other sons of God did [Jb 38.7] They shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were laid by the Son of God as agent for the Father.


    Nick, i'm saying that the son of God did not pre-exist as God, as in the 2nd person of the trinity, but he was predestined from the beginning…when God said, “light be”, that was the anointing of the Messiah & when Jesus was concieved & Mary gave birth, the word was made flesh…the word, 'light be” was made flesh & that is the day that the son of God was begotten

    as for the “sons of God” in (job 38:7), i am not completely sure about, but i suspect that is talking about the day that God rested, day 7 of creation…all things glorified & praised God & that includes the male & female of the 6th day, ie, the sons of God…both male & female are sons…both are man…female = feminine male & woman = man with a womb…they were just made compatible for procreation

    there were no agents for the Father in the beginning…He alone is creator of all

    #5180
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 09 2005,20:22)
    Hi Dora,
    No man has seen God as many scriptures tell us. Ezekiel saw a vision of God [Ez 1.1,26], similar to the vision John saw in Rev 4.3[and Is 6].Both say” a figure with the appearance of a man”and the mention of a rainbow of His glory surrounding Him.


    i didnt say any man had seen God…in fact i made it clear in earlier answers that only Jesus has seen God, but Ezekial did see God's body…he did not see his face

    #5181
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    Born is not begotten.
    The Son of God was begotten in the beginning before time or the creation of all things, which were made through him.He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.
    So if other sons exist then he pre existed them.
    But firstborn implies status and preeminence in all things.
    He was sent into into the world. He humbled himself and put aside his glory as the Son of God to be born as the Son of Man.
    The Logos was, then was made flesh.

    #5182
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,21:25)
    Hi Dora,
    The book of Genesis tells us the Earth was created before light.
    Gen 1f” In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was formless and void and darkness was over the surface of the deep;and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

    Then God said 'Let there be light' and there was light”

    The sons of God were created before the earth[Jb38]
    The Only begotten Son of God was with God in the beginning before the creation of all things.

    Jn 1.4 “In him was life;and the life was the light of men.”

    He was the light. But not the physical light of natural creation but the light of and for men-wisdom, knowledge, truth.

    All things were created through the Son of God and for him [Heb 1,Jn 1]and that includes the earth too does it not?


    yes, God created the heavens & the earth but they were without form & void & darkness was upon the face of the waters…i have commented about this earlier

    but day 1 of creation is when God spoke light be…the light is the substance of God, & the light that God spoke in the beginning was the predestined son of God…it was the anointing of Messiah, ie, Messiah means anointed one

    to be anointed means to be set apart for sacred purposes & illuminated with the light of God..the anointing is rubbed into the flesh to illumiate it to God…the flesh mind cant know God but once it has been illuminated by the anointing it can be transformed by the anointing…be not conformed to the world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind

    all things were made by the anointing of Messiah…God called the light day & said it was good, & it separated from the darkness, which God called night, but He did not call the night good…it was separated from the light

    the day of the Lord is Messiah because Messiah is the light…we are told to work while it is day & we are called children of the day bc we follow Messiah & the grace of God is extended to the world through Messiah, but the night comes when no man can work

    the night is darkness…it is the time when God will withdraw the light from the earth & it is the end of all salvation in the earth…a time that has never been known before…the very elements of the earth will be disrupted

    there is no scripture indicating that the sons of God were created before the earth, but the predestination of the son was with God…the word, light be, was the son, but he was not begotten until Mary concieved & Jesus was a flesh man that was one with God due to the lack of the sin nature of the flesh & he was fully joined to God by the substance of light, which is God..but that doesnt mean that Jesus was fully God & fully flesh

    there is only one God & He is deity alone…that is what the scriptures clearly say…He is the Father, YVAH…Jesus said the Father is his father & our father & His God & our God…Jesus was united to God by light & he was the light that God spoke in the beginning & God made the light (logos, or the word He spoke on day 1, “light be”)…God made the light flesh, ie, or the word flesh as light be was the word made flesh

    the light is the anointing of Messiah who God predestined to inherit all things created…they were all made for him & all things were formed by his anointing…that includes Adam

    if you chk the forum on trinity which i think is gone you will find that i commented on this before

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