John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 141 through 160 (of 25,987 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #5112
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Sorry liljon.
    No .
    The Son of God is not the Father of the Son of God.
    Ps 11.4″ Th Lord is in His Holy temple,the Lord's throne is in heaven. His eyes behold ,His eyelids test the sons of men”
    Ps 33.13″ The Lord looks from heaven. He sees all the sons of men. From His dwelling place He looks out on all the inhabitants of the earth”

    God acts and saves – using others.
    Ps 18.47
    ” The God who executes vengeance for me and subdues people under ME”
    Ps 16.8″ ..Because He is at MY right hand I will not be shaken”

    #5113
    NickHassan
    Participant

    You see liljon if Jesus is the Father, then God died.
    Now if God died who resurrected God?
    The bible said Jesus, the Son of God died, and was resurrected by his Father.

    #5114
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Cont. The bible also says God sent his only begotten Son into the world. It does not say He went Himself but that He sent the Son.
    Why mention God has a Son of He doesn't but He exists alone and goes Himself?
    Why say 'sent' if it was The Father alone going? For one to send another means there are two and the one sending has higher authority than the one sent.

    #5115
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi liljon
    Eph 1. 17
    ” That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him”
    Eph 2.14f “For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family on heaven and on earth derives it's name ..”
    The Father is Father of the Son of God and the other sons of God in heaven, and the nature of even our families on earth derives from this fact. Him we worship.

    #5118
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,

    Quote
    So , in the light of this fact you have to go back to John 2.19 and try to understand it in the light of what DID happen, as I have already explained.
    What should we do if we cannot grasp it's meaning? Reject the verse? Reject the chapter or perhaps the whole gospel of John? I think not. It would be better to put it back in the storehouse and wait for the Spirit who wrote it to expand our puny minds so we can understand it.

    Your repeated demand that we agree with your view of Jesus and his Father shows that you have not yet understood the scripture about the vine WIT.
    Jn 15f
    ” I AM the true vine and my Father is the vinegrower. He prunes away every barren branch but the fruitful ones he trims clean to increase their yield. You are clean already thanks to the word I have spoken to you.
    LIVE ON IN me, as I do in you . No more than a branch can bear fruit of itself apart from the vine can you bear fruit apart from me.
    I am the vine, you are the branches. He who LIVES IN me and I in him will produce abundantly but apart from me you can do nothing. A man who does not live in me is like a withered branch picked up to be thrown in the fire and burnt.
    If you LIVE IN me and my words stay part of you, you may ask what you will -it will be done for you. My Father has been glorified in your bearing much fruit and becoming my disciples..”

    So you admit that you don't understand John 2:19, even though the context seems to show it as a clear statement about “Jesus” raising himself from the dead?  Yet, in order to explain your relationship to “Jesus”, you turn to another passage in John that is clearly metaphoric in nature, and has no direct explanation.  How is it that you understand John 15 so well, when you don't know how to take John 2:19, in light of the direct explanation given in John 2:22?

    Nick and T8,

    Psalm 8:3 says the following:
    “When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place”

    Does that sound like a reference to an agent to you, or does it sound like something the Almighty did Himself?  For example, if someone said, “George Bush, on his own two feet, invaded Iraq”, would you think that that person was referring to agents of George Bush or George Bush himself?

    As for the deity of “Jesus”, observe the following passage:

    Deuteronomy 13:
    “1 'If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'–which you have not known–'and let us serve them,' 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.'”

    This is a strong warning from the Almighty against anyone who would present His people with a new god that they have not heard of before.  In fact, He says that anyone who would do such a thing should be put to death.  I think it is safe to assume that no one hearing these words knew of any other god in heaven whom they were to serve.  How then were the Israelites ever to believe in “Jesus”, (or “the Logos”), if he was a god from the beginning to be revealed to them at a later time.  Would they not see “Jesus” as a test and reject him out of obedience to the true God?  Or, was God simply setting them up for failure from their very foundations?

    It is interesting to note that the “gods” in question aren't given any kind of description whatsoever.  It doesn't say that they are evil gods, or gods that would by their very nature lead people away from Yahweh.  It simply says gods that the people have not known.  This sets up Yahweh as the only god they are to have – EVER!!!!

    T8,

    Quote
    I also teach the following:
    There are many who have God's nature including Jesus and even the angels/sons of God (ben eloyhim). But there is only one God in identity, the Father. This one true God shares his nature and those who receive his nature can be called gods, sons or images.

    John 10:34-35
    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, “I said, “You are gods”'? (theos)
    35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

    Psalm 82:6
    6 “I said, 'You are “gods”; (eloyhim)
      you are all sons of the Most High.'

    It is intersting to note that the idea that we are all gods comes from the mysterious gospel of John.  According to many translation notes, the psalm passage being quoted is in references to judges or rulers, and if you read the whole psalm it is clearly about men ruling unjustly, (i.e. it's about rulers).  No other scripture confirms the idea that men are gods.

    In any case, we know that when you say that Jesus is a god you mean that very differently then when you say that men are gods.  You mean to say that Jesus, unlike men, existed with Yahweh before the world began, and in fact did the actual work of creation that resulted in man's existence.  It is clear to me that you believe in two unique divine entities, one of whom is Yahweh, the most High God, and the other is Jesus, the Son God, to whom we owe our very existence, because he was the one who actually formed us out of the dust of the ground.  Is that not a fair summation of what you believe?

    #5119
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Welcome back WIT,
    Let me make one thing plain. I do not claim to understand every scripture-yet. All will be made clear when Jesus returns.
    All I know is that there are certain principles that can be applied to scripture that help it reveal itself to us.
    One of those it that if a scriptural fact is revealed at least twice it is true[the principle of witnesses] By this we know that Jesus was raised by his Father as that fact is shown many times where the verse in Jn 2.19 stands alone so needs deeper analysis.
    Another essential tool is the principle of God's delegation. He lives in heaven and uses His sons and His servants to do all his work. If you do not grasp this tool then you will come across all kinds of confusion. You will see the feet of the Father standing on the Mt of Olives in Zech 14 and verses that say He created everything through the Son of God make no sense.
    The other sons of God were shown in the OT yet Jesus is the only begotten Son and the firstborn Son. There is a conflict here unless we believe that Jesus was begotten in the beginning and sent from the Father into the world, as the word clearly reveals.
    It causes people to have to reject gospels like John's if they cannot understand these things. They prefer to cut themselves away from the Body for the sake of satisfying their minds with human logic. The word is greater than us. We have to approach it with humility to learn from it rather than taking only the parts we can now grasp.
    God is one. Jesus confirmed this . No other god can approach His glory. No other God is to be worshipped. Jesus did not come as a competitor to seek worship. He is a truly humble servant seeking only the will of his Father and drawing men to worship Him.
    But Jesus showed us more about the Kingdom of heaven and his amazing personal glory in that Kingdom prior to his human birth. He is God's reflection above all except God Himself. His glory far exceeded that of any angel or man and he now is at the right hand of the Father.
    These revelations about the Son of God upset and confused some of the jews who thought he claimed to be the Father. Surely these revelations should not still confuse us who have the Spirit as teacher? Surely we are not uninformed and misguided as they were? Surely we are not still saying what the Phariseess said about Jesus?

    #5120
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To WIT,

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 04 2005,14:01)
    Does that sound like a reference to an agent to you, or does it sound like something the Almighty did Himself?  For example, if someone said, “George Bush, on his own two feet, invaded Iraq”, would you think that that person was referring to agents of George Bush or George Bush himself?


    What about those who bring the gospel to the unsaved. Is it not God who still saves? Yet God doesn't personally walk up to people and give them the gospel, rather it is a team effort. God uses people.

    God uses likeness to create likeness. Even the DNA of a monkey is similar to a human and this leads some to believe that humans came from monkeys. But it really proves that God uses and reuses his code, like any good programmer does. So how does God create a flower? Well he may well use code from another flower he created. How does God speak and reveal himself to men? Through his son and others that he has delegated. The eternal God seems to make things in likeness, so it comes as no suprise to me that just as God saved us by his son that he also created us by his son.

    The order is as follows: The head of the woman is man, the head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. If you weren't focussed on trying to find fault with me or Nick, you would see that this is simply and plainly what we teach.

    This is clearly demonstrated in the first chapter of Revelation. The revelation came from God and was given to the son and then to the angel and to John who gave it to the churches.

    God appears to do his will through others and I can understand that God created the worlds through his son, after all Christ is the vine that we grow from. But God is the one who tenders the vine.

    I do not think that this is hard to understand.

    #5121
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To WIT,

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 04 2005,14:01)
    It is intersting to note that the idea that we are all gods comes from the mysterious gospel of John.  According to many translation notes, the psalm passage being quoted is in references to judges or rulers, and if you read the whole psalm it is clearly about men ruling unjustly, (i.e. it's about rulers).  No other scripture confirms the idea that men are gods.

    In any case, we know that when you say that Jesus is a god you mean that very differently then when you say that men are gods.  You mean to say that Jesus, unlike men, existed with Yahweh before the world began, and in fact did the actual work of creation that resulted in man's existence.  It is clear to me that you believe in two unique divine entities, one of whom is Yahweh, the most High God, and the other is Jesus, the Son God, to whom we owe our very existence, because he was the one who actually formed us out of the dust of the ground.  Is that not a fair summation of what you believe?


    gods can be a reference to those in authority. We are gods to the animals and the earth for God gave man that authority. But Christ is god to us as he has authority over us. But the one true God who has authority over all, even Christ, is the Father. He is God not only in nature and authority, but name too. He is God of the heavens and the earth and the God of Jesus.

    The fact that Jesus existed as the Logos with the Father in the beginning is derived from the gospel of John not because Jesus is a god. Being a god is relative to what you are a god too. Being a god does not make one God over all things.

    Similarly being an elder doesn't make one an elder over all. E.g.  a 21 year old may well be an elder to a 16 year old, but that doesn't make that 21 year old an elder over the whole church.

    I fail to understand why men seem to take words and cannot understand it in context, but give it some kind of universal meaning. We see this clearly with those who teach that Jesus is the Almighty God. They too fail to understand the context with which Christ is God or that we are gods. Then they try to accuse us of worshipping more than one God or accuse us of saying that there are 2 or more Almighties.

    But then again it should come as no surprise as Jesus himself was quoted out of context often and the reaction of the world against him and his words should be no different to those that are of him.

    #5125
    liljon
    Participant

    God ressurected God. God can be in more than one place plus Christ didn't go into non existence

    #5126
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi liljon,
    It sounds as though theologians are confusing you with their crude attempts at defining God. Their words are little use here. You will have to show us from scripture as that is where the truth is revealed.
    As you say these words of God are precious stones- compared with the foolishness of human wisdom.

    #5127
    liljon
    Participant

    The Truth is found in
    ISAIAH CHAPTER 40

    1 Comfort, yes, comfort My people, says your God.

    2 Speak, you priests, to the heart of Jerusalem; comfort her, for her humiliation is accomplished, her sin is put away; for she has received of the Lord's hand double for her sins.

    3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare the way of the Lord, make straight the paths of our God.

    and in zechariah 14:17 where jesus is identified as Lord God Almighty and Our God

    #5128
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,

    Quote
    Welcome back WIT

    Thank you!

    Quote
    All I know is that there are certain principles that can be applied to scripture that help it reveal itself to us.
    One of those it that if a scriptural fact is revealed at least twice it is true[the principle of witnesses] By this we know that Jesus was raised by his Father as that fact is shown many times where the verse in Jn 2.19 stands alone so needs deeper analysis.
    Another essential tool is the principle of God's delegation. He lives in heaven and uses His sons and His servants to do all his work.

    Great.  I assume that the principles that you are using to interpret the scripture are…well, scriptural.  So can you point me to at least two scriptures that say that Yahweh does all His work through agents?

    Quote
    If you do not grasp this tool then you will come across all kinds of confusion. You will see the feet of the Father standing on the Mt of Olives in Zech 14 and verses that say He created everything through the Son of God make no sense.

    Actually, if you look at Zechariah 14 in context, it is talking about Judgement Day:

    Zechariah 14:
    “4And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east.  And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south.”

    Either this will literally happen, in the last days, and the Mount of Olives will be ripped in two, or this is a metaphor for some extraordinary event that will take place.  In either case, I have no problem with Yahweh accomplishing this Himself.  Why do you?

    T8,

    Quote
    gods can be a reference to those in authority. We are gods to the animals and the earth for God gave man that authority. But Christ is god to us as he has authority over us. But the one true God who has authority over all, even Christ, is the Father. He is God not only in nature and authority, but name too. He is God of the heavens and the earth and the God of Jesus.

    Well, according to your own teaching, Jesus is god of the universe, for two reasons.  Firstly, he created it, and secondly he has been given all authority over heaven and earth by the Father.  Is that a fair assessment of your beliefs?

    Nick and T8,

    It is obvious that Yahweh uses agents to accomplish His purposes, but it is a very different thing to say that Yahweh can only accomplish His will through agents.  I say that Yahweh is capable of setting the stars in place without Jesus.  What do you say?  And, how do you interpret Psalm 8:3?

    As I have mentioned previously, I am simply trying to establish the foundations of your faith, and whether or not they go against scripture – all scripture, including the foundations set in place by God in the OT.  I see no room in the OT for God's people to have over them any god, (or deity, to use a less disputed term), other than Yahweh.  I especially see that in the book of Deuteronomy.  You seem to think that having two deities over us is perfectly scriptural, but how then do you interpret the Deut. 13 passage that I quoted?

    #5129
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi liljon,
    Well the heresy of modalism is one way of explaining these scriptures. That is to say that the Father and the Son are the same.

    There is another better answer.

    Jesus acts in the Name of His Father and does the work of his Father.

    Many struggle with this idea but it is throughout the scriptures-God delegates!

    #5130
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,

    I think that you and I were posting at the same time yesterday, so you might have missed my post.  (It was posted just before yours.)  If not, forgive the silly reminder!

    :D

    #5131
    NickHassan
    Participant

    YesWIT,
    Sorry missed the postie
    Why do I get the impression your God is too small?
    Ps18.7
    ” Then the earth shook and quaked and the foundations of the mountains were trembling and were shaken, because he was angry”
    v 9″ He bowed the heavens also and came down with thick darkness under his feet. And he rode on a cherub and flew;and he sped on the wings of the wind”
    Ps 97 ” The Lord reigns ,let the earth rejoice .Let the many islands be glad. Clouds and thick darkness surround him .Righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne .Fire goes before him and burns up his adversaries around about. His lightnings lit up the world .The earth saw and trembled The mountains melted like wax at the presence of the Lord. At the presence of the Lord of the whole earth”
    Also Mic 1.4,Hab 3.10,Nah 1.5.Is 64.3, Ps114,
    This describes the return of Jesus in his glory as king-The power and Glory of the Father is much greater.

    When He even looks at the earth it trembles[ps 104.32]

    It is the feet of Jesus as king that stand on the Mount of Olives. The Father is Spirit-not physical.
    Is”52.7″ How lovely on the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news”

    As Far as God delegating goes. God does not detail all He does in the Word or how He does it.
    Pr 25. 2 “It is the Glory of God to conceal a matter…”

    Spoonfeeding his servants is not His style.
    But the word tells us all creation came through His only begotten Son and every action of God seen in scripture seems to be through His Son, Angels, Satan and men-apart from His voice being heard by Adam and Eve, Moses and Jesus and his disciples and His raising of Yashua. Ps 8.3 has to be interpreted in this light too-further revelation that the actual work was done through Yashua.
    Even Judgement is delegated to Jesus who delegates it to men as well.

    From God's point of view there are no other gods.
    From man's point of view there are many gods.
    God wants us to worship Him alone.

    #5132
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,

    After reading your last post, it has become painfully clear to me that we are not speaking the same language or reading the same scriptures.  For example, you said:

    Quote
    Why do I get the impression your God is too small?

    I have NO idea where you would get this impression. Your own set of beliefs reduces Yahweh to a voice, aside from the resurrection of Yashua:

    Quote
    But the word tells us all creation came through His only begotten Son and every action of God seen in scripture seems to be through His Son, Angels, Satan and men-apart from His voice being heard by Adam and Eve, Moses and Jesus and his disciples and His raising of Yashua.

    In fact, in your last post, you have taken passages that attributes power and glory to Yahweh, and you have shifted that power and glory to Yashua!  (Is there any better illustration of someone putting a god before Yahweh?!?!?)

    Basically, anywhere in the scripture that you read about Yahweh, you immediately substitute Yashua as the actual person who does the work of God, (unless another agent is specified, of course).

    I asked you to show me that this “tool” of scriptural interpretion was found in the bible, and you said:

    Quote
    As Far as God delegating goes. God does not detail all He does in the Word or how He does it.
    Pr 25. 2 “It is the Glory of God to conceal a matter…”

    So essentially, you are telling me that this tool of yours is not found in scripture.  Where then do you get the authority to say that scripture must be read in this way?  I can only assume that it is from yourself.  (Incidentally, trinitarians do the same thing.  They come up with a way to interpret scripture from their own philosophy, and then impose it on every scripture that they read.)  Until you can show me a higher authority for your method of interpreting scripture, I must simply reject it.

    Regardless, I would still like to hear how you interpret the Deuteronomy 13 passage.

    #5133
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Yes WIT,
    Our light is different.
    That is obvious to all.
    Can two walk together unless they agree?
    Your interest seems to be to tear down and not to build?

    #5134
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    God is the initiator of all things.As Paul said in Him in Acts 17.24f we live and move and have our being. He is not far from any of us. He is the ultimate authority. The centurion understood authority when he told Yahshua that he tells his servants to do this or that and it is done.A centurion cannot win a war and nor can any leader but the use of that authority if obeyed can do amazing things.

    God does not need to do the work of creation -he gives the task to Jesus[Heb1.2,Jn1.3,1.10,Coll 1.16f]

    He uses angels to speak for Him[Heb 2.2] as well as His Son[Heb 1.2] and the prophets[Heb 1.1] In fact he never does anything without giving advance warning through the prophets[Amos 3.7] He also gives signs in the heavens.[rev 12.1]
    Satan is used to test men[Job1-2]even Jesus.

    Why be God and do the work yourself?

    #5136
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To WIT,

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 05 2005,17:49)
    Firstly, he created it, and secondly he has been given all authority over heaven and earth by the Father.  Is that a fair assessment of your beliefs?


    It was God who created the universe, but he did it through his Son. That is what I teach. How God created the universe through his son is beyond my understanding at this time, but I believe it because scripture states this.

    #5137
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To WIT,

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Jan. 05 2005,17:49)
    Great.  I assume that the principles that you are using to interpret the scripture are…well, scriptural.  So can you point me to at least two scriptures that say that Yahweh does all His work through agents?


    Try these:

    Ephesians 2:10
    For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Colossians 1
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
    17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

    It appears that God uses Christ in all (not some) created things, good things that is. That includes the universe and principalities. So if we are obedient to Christ then we are obedient to God. If we honour the son, we honour the Father.

    Sure God may be doing stuff outside of creation that we have no idea about. But within creation he does all through his son because that is what he chose. He created all things through Christ and for him. Love is the real reason that God does this. He created all things for his son and so he also did it all through him.

    We in turn are to be obedient to Christ as he is our head. God is Christ's head. So if I am obedient to Christ I am obedient to God.

    Do you understand that God works through his son. He even sent his own Spirit to us, through his son.

Viewing 20 posts - 141 through 160 (of 25,987 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account