John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 181 through 200 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #5183
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 10 2005,02:12)
    Hi Dora,
    Are you saying the firstborn and only begotten Son of God did not have a separate nature and being from the Father in the beginning?
    The other sons of God did [Jb 38.7] They shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were laid by the Son of God as agent for the Father.


    as for the son of God, Jesus, having a separate nature from God in the beginning>>>the nature of Jesus was to do the will of God…he fully eliminated his own will in the wilderness temptation, where he dealt with the lust of the flesh

    did Jesus have lust? yes, the bible says he was tempted in all points like we are, yet without sin…he could have submitted to the lust to take dominion of the earth, which was already his, by his own will & by his own lusts

    he had just heard directly from heaven, the Father, that he was His beloved son in whom He was well pleased…both John & Jesus knew who the beloved son was…the Messiah, & both knew who Messiah was, the hier of God for whom all things were created from the beginning

    Jesus was tempted to use his own abilities to turn the stone to bread & he could have done it & he was hungry, starving actually…is it easier to turn stones to bread or feed a multitude by dividing fishes & loaves? and the other temptations he could legally & wilfully have accomplished by his own will as well…he could have moved by his own lusts of the flesh, but he fully laid his own will down & when he did that was when he beheld satan fall as lightening from heaven

    whew! i know this is not going to be understood because of the lack of understanding jewish idioms, customs, & the preconcieved idea that satan is a literal being who rules darkness…a being that was once a holy angel of God…i will say this…holy angels of God cannot sin because they are not flesh…they are spirit bodies & arent even tempted to sin or rebell against God

    what happened in the wilderness temptation was the lusts of the flesh, which is the tempter, were judged & they fell from dominion…in other words, the flesh was put under the perfect will of God…even though Jesus had no sin nature he was a flesh man…the flesh lusts against the spirit or has appetites of it's own that are against God's will…Jesus was no longer controled by any flesh appetites…he fully yeilded his life to the will of God & did nothing of his own will, thus when he spoke his words were spirit & life because they were the words of God that he heard & repeated…he did & spoke nothing of his own desires until the crucifiction

    again he was tempted to do his own will…he didnt want to be separated from the Father, which he would have to do if he became the lamb of God…and he prayed, “let this cup pass from me, nevertheless, your will be done”…again he restrained his own will

    nothing like this is taught in church, i know, but you will find it in the bible

    #5184
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,05:05)
    Hi Dora,
    Born is not begotten.
    The Son of God was begotten in the beginning before time or the creation of all things, which were made through him.He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.
    So if other sons exist then he pre existed them.
    But firstborn implies status and preeminence in all things.
    He was sent into into the world. He humbled himself and put aside his glory as the Son of God to be born as the Son of Man.
    The Logos was, then was made flesh.


    that's right, nick…conception is begotten…Jesus was concieved by a human sperm & egg…the reason i know the sperm was human is because humans beget humans…that is the law of God & He does not break His own laws

    if Jesus was begotten before the earth, who was his mother?

    as you know, Adam was also the son of God (luke 3:38), but Adam was not begotten & he was not the hier of all creation that was predestined in the beginning…God predestined His son to be begotten of a woman…a woman who was flesh

    He used the covenant of Abraham to bring this to pass, but the 1st prophesy of his conception was in the fall in eden…God said the seed of the serpent would be an enemy of the seed of the woman…Jesus was the seed of the woman

    this is not deity that pre-existed in heaven that changed himself or was changed into flesh…the word clearly tells us that God is not flesh & that God never changes & God never lies & He would be lying if He said all things & then altered what He said

    if begotten isnt being born, nick, what is it to you?

    #5185
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    Conception is nothing like begotten Dora.

    Begotten is derived directly from.
    Conception derives from two, not one.

    An image derives directly from the original. The Logos is the image of the Father. He is the only begotten Son of God.

    All other sons,including Adam, were created. No other being was involved when Yeshua was begotten but the Father alone.
    That is why Yeshua is the exact representation of the Father's being. He was derived in his being from the Father before time in the beginning. He is the second Adam as far as flesh is concerned. Through him and for him all else was created.[Heb 1,Jn 1]

    Jesus was born of a virgin. His mother was the only human involved as far as his body or tent was concerned. The Son of God partook of flesh to become like us.

    But why highlight the flesh?

    ” Make no provision for the flesh”

    Jn 6.63″The Spirit gives life. The flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life”

    This is what the Word of God says.I believe it.

    #5186
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    You do not have the right to change scripture.

    Scripture reveals that Satan tested the Son of God in the desert. To allegorise Satan is to change scripture. It is to take away from scripture. I am sure you know there are dire warnings for those who add or take away from the Word of God.

    Hebrews 1 tells us he had godly nature, and he was made for a little while less than the angels. So he was greater than the angels. When was that? Before he assumed our humble human estate.

    Phil 2 tells us the Son of God
    “made himself nothing, taking the nature of a servant being made in human likeness”

    So he was of godly nature
    but shed that to become a servant and
    was made in human likeness.

    That is the order of events revealed by Scripture.

    It does not say he was born a man,
    then humbled himself
    and became a servant.

    Why do people denigrate the Son of God
    and make him only Son of Man?

    Surely you fear God?

    #5187
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    I like your concept of Yeshua as light in the beginning. He is the light of the world.
    But it does say the earth existed prior to light. The Earth is the round orb in the created universe but perhaps it looked more like the Moon or Mars?
    The other problem is the implication that Darkness existed before Light. Evil before Good. Satan before Yeshua.
    Sorry that is where the concept fails me.

    Jb 38 says the sons of God rejoiced when the foundations of the earth were being laid. So the earth had not been created yet. The Logos was firstborn so he was before them.

    #5190
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,08:06)
    Hi Dora,
    Conception is nothing like begotten Dora.

    Begotten is derived directly from.
    Conception derives from two, not one.

    An image derives directly from the original. The Logos is the image of the Father. He is the only begotten Son of God.

    All other sons,including Adam, were created. No other being was involved when Yeshua was begotten but the Father alone.
    That is why Yeshua is the exact representation of the Father's being. He was derived in his being from the Father before time in the beginning. He is the second Adam as far as flesh is concerned. Through him and for him all else was created.[Heb 1,Jn 1]

    Jesus was born of a virgin. His mother was the only human involved as far as his body or tent was concerned. The Son of God partook of flesh to become like us.

    But why highlight the flesh?

    ” Make no provision for the flesh”

    Jn 6.63″The Spirit gives life. The flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are Spirit and they are life”

    This is what the Word of God says.I believe it.


    my dear bro, conception is what took place in Mary's womb…begotten is procreation & procreation is the process of reproducing after like kind…a dog doesnt procreate with a cat, etc

    Jesus was a human being in the flesh, a living soul & a life giving spirit…when isaac was concieved it was through miraculous process also, but isaac was abraham's seed…God produced the egg in sarah to concieve…it was produced by abraham's faith…he believed God when God promised it & God predestined it before it was declared to abe

    Messiah, Jesus, was predestined to be born “of” flesh…God promised that he would be the seed of the woman, ie, the virgin…then God continued to prophesy of how Messiah would be born in various ways…he told isaiah that as a sign a virgin would concieve…sign = miracle & direct result of intervention of the divine working “with man”, ie, Immanuel

    ignoring Jesus' flesh is not like ignoring our flesh appetites…Jesus' flesh is unique to any other…it was without sin because he did not inherit the sins of the father & bc he was the substance of light, the image of God “made flesh”

    if we dont eat the flesh of Jesus we have no life in us…that is a hard saying that has been interpreted many ways, but it simply refers to his flesh being the bread that is broken for us…only his flesh could be the sacrifice…he likens his flesh to the manna from heaven in the wilderness in moses day bc the manna kept the israelites in perfect health, but they didnt want the manna…they wanted flesh like they had in egypt & the murmured & complained against God bc he wasnt doing things the way they were used to, ie, the comforts of the flesh appetites…Jesus is saying the same thing was happening in his day…he came to his own (his inheritance) & they recieved him not

    they murmured against him & was looking for another messiah bc Jesus wasnt what they were expecting…but to as many as recieve him (in the flesh) he gives the power to become the sons of God

    how do you say that no other was involved when Yahshua was begotten by God alone? it is YVAH that sent Gabriel to declare to mary that she will concieve…that is God working with flesh or God with us, Immanuel

    Jesus' body was not a tent! he was a fully intergrated body of flesh, ie, body & spirit as a whole = soul…he wasnt in parts & he wasnt just a spirit

    #5191
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,18:09)
    Hi Dora,
    I like your concept of Yeshua as light in the beginning. He is the light of the world.
    But it does say the earth existed prior to light. The Earth is the round orb in the created universe but perhaps it looked more like the Moon or Mars?
    The other problem is the implication that Darkness existed before Light. Evil before Good. Satan before Yeshua.
    Sorry that is where the concept fails me.

    Jb 38 says the sons of God rejoiced when the foundations of the earth were being laid. So the earth had not been created yet. The Logos was firstborn so he was before them.


    sorry if the truth offends you…i am just saying what is written by moses in genesis…the earth was not an orb before it was formed & it was not yet formed when darkness was upon the face of the deep…it not only wasnt formed it was void

    we are told that the darkness was there before God spoke, “light be”…i didnt write it

    you speculate about the earth being like the moon or mars because the moon & mars werent even formed yet…i think where you get hung up about this is by the word “create”…to create is to purpose & work out process, which is what God did when it says He created the heavens & the earth…the darkness in the beginning was the mystery of God's plan

    lets look at darkness being a part of God…have i lost you? :D come back for a minute ???

    Job & his friends talk alot about darkness & how it is such sorrow to them, then God talks to Job & He says something very interesting: (Job 38:4) God asks Job, “where were you when i laid the foundations of the earth?” then He says, “I made the cloud the garment thereof, & thick darkness a swaddling band for it” (38:9)

    (psalm 18:11) “He made darkness His secret place; His pavillion round about Him were dark waters & thick clouds of the skies”…this is God saying darkness is His pavillion & His secret place…(psalm 97:2) “Clouds & darkness are round about Him: righteousness & judgement are the habitation of His throne”

    this is speaking of God's hidden purposes that are higher than any can know…it is like darkness to us…all that compares to Him is like darkness…the word says that the light that is in us can be darkness, ie, without understanding

    before God formed the heavens or the earth He planned it, ie, He created His purpose…then God was moved by His spirit, ie, His spirit moved upon the face of the deep…He turned His face to form what He had created & the 1st thing He said was “light be!”…those are not my words…read it for yourself

    God did not create the light…He didnt form it with His hands…when He spoke He was saying let the light be that is…the light that is = God…so God spoke that Messiah was His purpose, Messiah would be the substance of light & the God made all things with the light (Messiah's anointing that was predestined before he was begotten)

    #5192
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,18:09)
    Hi Dora,
    I like your concept of Yeshua as light in the beginning. He is the light of the world.
    But it does say the earth existed prior to light. The Earth is the round orb in the created universe but perhaps it looked more like the Moon or Mars?
    The other problem is the implication that Darkness existed before Light. Evil before Good. Satan before Yeshua.
    Sorry that is where the concept fails me.

    Jb 38 says the sons of God rejoiced when the foundations of the earth were being laid. So the earth had not been created yet. The Logos was firstborn so he was before them.


    ok, nick, lets look at Job 38…you say it says that “the sons of God rejoiced when the foundations of the earth were being laid. So the earth had not been created yet. The Logos was firstborn so he was before them.”

    (job 38:4-7) God says He laid the foundation of the earth & then “the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy”…the sons of God didnt precede the earth…they rejoyced after all was finished…the morning stars are the sons of God…they are the same

    the book of Job is written in parellel language, a form of poetry that is symetrical…in this script the sons of God are the morning stars

    i believe this is the 7th day when God rested…all creation worshipped Him & glorified Him…the sons of God were the male & female which God made on the 6th day (i personally am inclinded to believe that this was before Adam was formed)

    I believe the scripts indicate that Adam was formed after the 7th day & was set apart as intercessor…one reason i believe this is because on the 6th day “they” were made male & female, but when Adam was formed he was alone…i leave that with you

    but the sons of God were those made in the image & likeness of God…they were male & female & they inhabited the earth…it was the human race

    #5193
    DORA
    Participant

    where do you get that logos was 1st born? that isnt written anywhere in scripture is it? logos = divine intellegence (wisdom) expressed…it is God expressing Himself in word or breathing out of Himself, which is His Spirit that is holy

    in (prov 8:22) wisdom is speaking (logos)…”the Lord (YVAH) possessed me in the beginning of His ways, before His works of old, I (wisdom) was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was..when there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water”

    it goes on to say that wisdom was there before the heavens also…i am inclined to beleive that this was God's predestination of all things…He created the heavens & the earth & they were not formed, darkness was upon the waters, but even before that wisdom (logos) was with God…this is not the son

    wisdom means “she who guides”…it is a feminine noun & it refers to God's spirit…God is an incorruptible spirit body & He has a spirit which is holy…they are not separate…He is male & female as a whole…not in form but in soul or essence…God is a soul & that is overlooked…spirit + body as a whole = soul…i will give you a few scripts that verify this…there are many

    (Isa 42:1) “behold my servant whom I uphold: mine elect in whom My soul delights” (speaking of God's love for Messiah)…(matt 12:18) “behold my servant in whom I have chosen; my beloved in whom My soul is well pleased”

    (heb 10:38) “the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him”

    in nature the male nature is different from the female…in God is both complimentary natures…His wisdom is feminine so it is not the son, but in the anointing of the son is wisdom…he was the fullness of the godhead bodily…the godhead is not plural & isnt a unity of more than one to make a whole…the godhead is the only deity & there is no other

    Jesus was the logos “made flesh”…the logos is the word that God spoke on day one as He began to form the heavens & the earth because that is explained to us by John, but misunderstood (in my opinion)…the word (logos) that God spoke was “light be”…this word was with God & it was God & it was what God spoke in the beginning (the beginning of forming the heavens & the earth, not the beginning of creation when the earth was not yet formed)

    God said in essence, “let the light be as I am”…but that doesnt mean that Jesus was deity but his anointing was the substance of deity, ie, light…that anointing was made flesh, ie, light…john says of Jesus, “IN HIM was life; and the life was the light of men, & the light shined in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not”

    #5194
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,08:24)
    Hi Dora,
    You do not have the right to change scripture.

    Scripture reveals that Satan tested the Son of God in the desert. To allegorise Satan is to change scripture. It is to take away from scripture. I am sure you know there are dire warnings for those who add or take away from the Word of God.

    Hebrews 1 tells us he had godly nature, and he was made for a little while less than the angels. So he was greater than the angels. When was that? Before he assumed our humble human estate.

    Phil 2 tells us the Son of God
    “made himself nothing, taking the nature of a servant being made in human likeness”

    So he was of godly nature
    but shed that to become a servant and
    was made in human likeness.

    That is the order of events revealed by Scripture.

    It does not say he was born a man,
    then humbled himself
    and became a servant.

    Why do people denigrate the Son of God
    and make him only Son of Man?

    Surely you fear God?


    i simply disagree, nick, but nothing i said changes scripture & nothing has been allegorised…it is there if you look but if you cant see maybe you should seek before you contradict…no matter what either of us believes the truth will stand

    son of man does not just mean to be human, which Jesus was, but it means to be ruler among men…when Jesus spoke of himself as son of man he was saying he was Messiah, ruler among men, & ruler of rulers

    if Jesus did not have flesh appetites he would not need to eat or sleep, but we know he did…flesh appetites are lusts…Jesus had flesh appetites that he did not let rule him, but he was tempted as we are…to be tempted is to drawn by our own lusts…Jesus was indeed tempted as we are yet without sin

    how Jesus became a servant was by not exercising his God given authority to rule as Messiah…that is what happened in the wilderness temptation…he was taken upon a pinnacle & tempted to rule all the kingdoms of the world because they were divinely his right to do so as Messiah, but if he did it would have caused him to deny worship & obedience to God's will, which was not to rule, but to serve…to serve God & not man

    Jesus never served man…he demonstrated his love to men & it was percieved as service or servility…he only did the will of God & he only served that will

    he said, “greater love has NO MAN than that he lay his life down for a friend”…this is what he did…he surrendered his right to rule by dominion & force (which he would have had to do because of adversity) for the purpose of purchasing his inheritance (all things created, including the souls of men) with his own body so we could become bone of his bone & flesh of his flesh

    from what you have already said, surely you will not hear me now, but i leave it with you to judge

    blessings to you

    #5195
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2005,08:06)
    Conception is nothing like begotten


    Not so, Nick esp. in the case of Jesus

    To be conceived & to be begotten is scripturally, exactly the very same thing!
    The translators masked this fact by translating the Greek word for 'begotten' as 'conceived' in Matt 1.20

    Nevertheless, if you check the Greek, it is the very same word.

    Gennao is used for

    • 'begat' in Matt 1:2-16, Acts 7:8, 29;
    • 'begotten' in Acts 13.33, 1 Cor 4.15, Phile 1.10, Heb 1.5, 5.5, 1 John 5.18
    • 'begat' & 'begotten' in 1 John 5.1
    • Yet, when it came to the case of Jesus' conception, the KJV translators translated the very same word as 'conceived'
      to mask the fact that
      Jesus was begotten in the womb of Mary by the holy spirit of GOD
      Matt 1.20

    Just thought I point this out!

    #5196
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    You seem surprised that we do not  easily accept your understandings? Your assumptions and preconceptions are vastly different and tortuous.
    eg Son of Man means ruler-where does this come from?

    It is fine to share your understandings but not to teach them here.
    Here the truths from the Word of God are sought and shared.

    But some seem to establish their doctrines and then come back and publically attack the Word of God and try to destroy simple revealed truths such as that of the reality of Satan and the soul. That is the problem. The faith of the 'newborn' could be damaged. We should not be surprised as Jesus warned they would even deny him.

    1 thess tells us we are spirit, soul and body and they are separate and different.

    #5200
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    James 1.14f tells us own lusts tempt us from within. It says we should not accuse God of tempting us.

    But the same writer in Ch 4.7 says
    ” resist the Devil and he will flee from you”

    He was not saying that Satan does not exist but placing responsibility for sin where it belongs-with the sinner.

    Job 1-2 shows us that God allows Satan to trouble men.

    #5201
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Yes Adam Pastor,
    Thank you. My apologies Dora. You are quite right about the word used here. I will look further into this.

    #5202
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Dora,
    Ps 38 says that the sons of God sang for joy when the the foundations of the earth were being measured and laid. Any good builder will tell you that is before the finishing of it's construction!
    Now we know angels can be allegorised as stars as it is shown by the Spirit several times in Revelation[eg1.20]
    But you cannot reverse the metaphor and say they are stars. That is silly-stars do not sing.
    If I say you are a 'rock', that does not mean that all rocks are you!
    Gen 1.1 tells us the earth was created in the beginning. It also says the light was called Day, not the logos predestined thought or other.
    The logos is not wisdom either. It is Word who was with God in the beginning.

    #5208
    DORA
    Participant

    fyi, the term son of man meaning ruler is found in the encyclopedia judaica…dont you use knowledge of biblical history in your study?

    #5209
    DORA
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2005,21:27)
    Hi Dora,
    You seem surprised that we do not  easily accept your understandings? Your assumptions and preconceptions are vastly different and tortuous.
    eg Son of Man means ruler-where does this come from?

    It is fine to share your understandings but not to teach them here.
    Here the truths from the Word of God are sought and shared.

    But some seem to establish their doctrines and then come back and publically attack the Word of God and try to destroy simple revealed truths such as that of the reality of Satan and the soul. That is the problem. The faith of the 'newborn' could be damaged. We should not be surprised as Jesus warned they would even deny him.

    1 thess tells us we are spirit, soul and body and they are separate and different.


    1 thes does not tell us that we are spirit, soul, & body & they are separate & different as you say, but you are free to believe that is true if you wish…i have no argument with you

    i'm aware that paul says he prays that our “whole” spirit & soul & body be preserved blameless (1thes 5:23)…this does not say they are separate…it says they are a whole & if you use all scripture instead of one vs you can rightly divide his meaning

    for example, in the creation account of Adam you find that God formed the body & breathed into it & Adam “became” a living soul or spirit man, thus, this indicates clearly that the body & spirit as a whole = the soul

    you falsely accuse me of assumptions & preconceptions (???)…i leave that with you to judge

    #5212
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ Jan. 13 2005,09:09)
    To be conceived & to be begotten is scripturally, exactly the very same thing!


    Proverbs 8:22-30
    22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
    23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
    24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
    25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
    26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
    27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
    28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
    29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
    30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

    1 Corinthians 1:24
    but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:30
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    Micah 5:2
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    #5213
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (DORA @ Jan. 18 2005,01:07)
    for example, in the creation account of Adam you find that God formed the body & breathed into it & Adam “became” a living soul or spirit man, thus, this indicates clearly that the body & spirit as a whole = the soul


    My understanding is as follows:

    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

    If body & spirit = the soul, then how does one seperate the soul and spirit. According to your formula it doesn't appear to work as your formula suggests the body.

    I think that Hebrews 4:12 is saying that the spirit to the soul is like the marrow to the bone.

    The marrow is the life of the bone and the spirit is the life force for the soul.

    I know that I could be wrong, but I will only accept that which agrees with scripture.

    thx

    #5214
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    t8 …
    I hope you know and are aware that the whole of Proverbs 8 (not just 22 to 30) is simply talking about 'wisdom'.
    Nothing more, Nothing less.

    Wisdom is no more a literal person or living being in this chapter than 'Prudence' is in (Prov 8:12)  I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

    Also, 'wisdom' in this whole chapter is personified as 'a woman'

    BTW To all JWs and those who adhere to their doctrines:
    Proverbs 8 is not talking about Jesus at all!
    It is simple talking about wisdom, using personification as well as other literary devices, to demonstrate the fact that GOD made all things 'by or through' His wisdom
    as stated elsewhere throughout Scripture e.g.

    (Jer 10:12)  He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
    (Jer 51:15)  He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
    (Psa 104:24)  O YAHWEH, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.
    (Prov 3:19)  YAHWEH by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

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