John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 17,921 through 17,940 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #798963
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick. ……The only fanciful behavior here is yours, we are agreeing with scriptures, you are the one who isn’t. Tha tshould be obvious to anyone who has the spirit of the truth “in” him. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene

    #798970
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB,

    You mean INTELLECT?

    Why do you keep diverting?

    #798976
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Hi KW,

    Is RATIONAL BEHAVIOUR agreeing with your fanciful logic?

    Rational behavior is acknowledging word use even when it disagrees with your viewpoint.

    For example

    “5. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit.” (entry for spirit at yourdictionary.com)

    A rational person admits that in English “ministering spirits” can mean that angels are characterized by the stated quality of “ministering”. An irrational denies it.

    #798977
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    Is carnal language and dubious logic the basis for spiritual understanding to you?

    Are you the arbiter for true rationality?

    #798979
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Hi KW,

    There are many things that scripture does not say.

    To BE a ministering spirit means to HAVE a spirit to you?

    Is this ok by your logic?

    Its the reasoning of certain translators of Scripture.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    A gossip goes around revealing a secret, but a trustworthy person(rū·aḥ) keeps a confidence.

    International Standard Version
    Whoever spreads gossip betrays secrets, but the trustworthy person(rū·aḥ) keeps a confidence.

    rū·aḥ is the Hebrew word translated to spirit 127 times in the NASB with wind or its derivatives as its closest competitor. These translators chose to translate it to spirit at they believed the writers were referring to the whole person by one of the parts of that person.

    Proverbs 11:13 in various translations.

    King James Bible
    A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit(rū·aḥ) concealeth the matter.

    GOD’S WORD® Translation
    Whoever gossips gives away secrets, but whoever is trustworthy in spirit(rū·aḥ) can keep a secret.

    These translators on the other hand chose to translate rū·aḥ as meaning the subject of the clause possesses a trustworthy spirit.

    It does logical reasoning to determine that the words “Are they not all ministering spirits…” can be speaking of angels with ministering spirits” as it is just word use in English and Hebrew.

    #798980
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Hi KW,

    Is carnal language and dubious logic the basis for spiritual understanding to you?

    Are you the arbiter for true rationality?

    Why are you arbitrarily labeling words that disagree with the teaching “carnal”?

    That arbitrariness is the fruit of irrationality.

    You have no reason to label the definitions I quoted from a dictionary as “carnal” while I can say “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing” as I speak about the spirit of angels and you speak of the body of angels.

    I am told that angels can both eat and touch others and so I do not believe they are immaterial being but you try to reconcile what Scripture tells you to the tradition that angels are immaterial creatures. It is your teaching that is based on “dubious logic” and I am just pointing that out.

    #798982
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    So all angels are material beings?

    Any scriptures?

     

    Trying to fit the spiritual ways of God into the ways of carnal men will never work.

    #798984
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Spiritual creatures cannot be touched or each and angels have both been touched and have eaten in Scripture.

    Do you believe was a spirit when he entered the room with his students after his death?

    It is true that some irrationally claim he was a spirit that revealed a flesh and bone body in order to convince his disciples he was not a spirit.

    Since the fact Jesus proved he was not a spirit by both eating and allowing himself to be touched it follows that those two tests are significant to prove any creature that does the same is not a spirit. The angels that visited Lot both ate and were touched by Lot, even as one touched him.

    Your either believe Jesus was not deceptive or that he was and you believe he was not deceptive then it follows that the angels that visited Lots house were not immaterial beings.

    You need to stop holding on to the tradition you were taught and start believing all of Scripture.

    #798994
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    So a few examples is ample proof to you of a general state involving all?

    Jesus was raised in his fleshly body to fulfill the sign of Jonah.

     

    You not being able to grasp everything using reason,

    is no excuse to suggest Jesus is deceptive is it?

    #799051
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick……so NICK, KERWIN has shownyou scripturial proof, that angels are not spirits, but have spirits “in” them, i have also shown you this over and over, and that spirits are types and kinds of intellects that give their destinct attributes to a person.

    We are two withiness that you are not speaking the truth about spirits being angels, we both have used scriptures to prove our points,but you refusal to accept it only shows your lack of scripturial understanding on this subject. You personal slanders toward us others here only shows where your heart really is, you simply cannot admit you are wrong, no matter how much proof is given you.

    peace and love to you and yours. ……………gene

    #799061
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB,

    Yes that is the level of proof that you are happy with.

    And your own imaginations are sufficient for you to say spirit is intellect.

     

    The fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom.

    #799092
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Spiritual creatures cannot be touched or each and angels have both been touched and have eaten in Scripture.

    Kerwin,

    We have a complete misconception regarding the SPIRITUAL CREATURES!

    spirits have bodies, but there actual body element is the tiniest, DUST LIKE SUBSTANCE, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF GOD’S ELEMENT WHICH IS

    THE UNIQUE FINEST DUST LIKE ELEMENT WHICH COULD ENTER IN THE SPEED OF LIGHT, THROUGH THE MOST HARDEST MATTER, WHICH PURPOSELY CONTAINS POURS!

    THE FACT THAT GOD SAID TO ADAM,

    DUST YOU ARE AND ADAM WAS NOT IN THE TRUTH DUST, BUT A LIVING SOUL, SO,HE SHOULD HAVE SAID:

    DUST YOU WERE

    BUT IN THE TRUTH HE SAID IT TO SATANA, WHO HAD THEN,JUST ENTERED ADAM , AND IN A WAY,TEMPORARY OWNED HIM,

    NOW, BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT IS NOT MY CONCERN,

    SPIRITUAL HEAVENLY CREATURES, SINCE THEY ARE WITHIN GOD’S POWER, AND HAVE THE SPEED OF LIGHT,ACCUMULATE, AND FORM IN NO TIME AT ALL,

    ALL WHAT GOD THROUGH THE POWER OF HIS WORD ORDERS

    FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING FOR GOD

    THIS SIMPLY MEANS THAT ONCE GOD PRONOUNCE HIS SPECIFIC WORDS, TO PARTICULAR ANGELS, THEY WOULD FORM ACCORDING TO THEIR SPECIFIC ORDER AND LEVEL OF GLORY, THE HUMAN BEING BODY!

    So one body would contain thousands of different spirits:

    JUST REFLECT: HOW MANY SPIRITS ENTERED THOSE PIGS AND THEY ALL WERE KILLED! THOSE SPIRITS WERE ALL WITHIN THAT EVIL MAN!

    IT WOULD BE SO IN LESS THEN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE!

    IT IS THE SPIRIT WHICH GIVES LIFE

    IT IS THE SPIRIT WHICH ACTUALLY FORM, CREATES, AND ESTABLISHES ALL

    OUR FLESH IS MORTAL ONLY TO RESPECT THE STATE OF THE MORTAL SPIRIT SATANA!

    FOR THE SAKE OF CLARITY: IF SATANA WERE TO CONVERT, IN THAT INSTANT,”THE WORD” FROM WITHIN HIM WOULD GIVE HIM ETERNAL LIFE AND THE ENTIRE CREATION WOULD NEVER SEE DEATH!

    NOW, SATANA IS IN FACT THE DUST THAT WE WALK ON EVERY THEY, THE ASHES WHICH COMES FROM VOLCANOES, THE ONLY VISIBLE ELEMENT WHICH GOD CREATED TO MANIFEST SATANA’S SPIRIT IN!

    JESUS MANIFESTED THIS IN THE MIRACLE OF JERICO, WHEN HE PUT SATANA’S ELEMENT : DUST, SPIT ON IT TO DEMONSTRATE HIS SUPERIORITY, AND WHO WAS IN ACTUAL FACT GOD OF THE WORLD, AND REMOVED SATANA’S SPIRIT FROM IT!

    Ezekiel 28:Thou wast in the pleasures of the paradise of God: every precious stone teas thy covering: the sardius, the topaz, and the jasper, the chrysolite, and the onyx, and the beryl, the sapphire, and the carbuncle, and the emerald: gold the work of thy beauty: and thy pipes were prepared in the day that thou wast created.

    IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE GOD MADE IT CLEAR THAT IN ORDER TO APPRECIATE LUCIFER’S ACTUAL VISIBLE SUBSTANCE, WITHIN THE FIRST EVER WORLD, CREATED BY LUCIFER HIMSELF, IN FULL HARMONY WITH GOD, DECLARED HEREUNDER:

    ECCLESIASTES: 1:10 NOTHING UNDER THE SUN IS NEW, neither is any man able to say: Behold this is new: for it hath already gone before in the ages that were before us.

    GOD WITHIN “THE WORD” HIDDEN IN LUCIFER AS HIS LIFE SOURCE, CREATED THE ABOVE MOST PRECIOUS STONES

    WHICH ALTHOUGH IT WAS MATTER, IT COULD BE REVERSIBLY BACK TO SPIRIT IN NO TIME AT ALL SINCE GOD IS ETERNAL.

    IN THIS KIND OF CREATION, IN GOD’S LOVE,

    THE SPIRITUAL CREATURES WOULD BE IN AN UNFATHOMABLE AND INIMITABLE BLISS, WHICH COMES FROM GOD IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN CREATION IN EXISTENCE!

    THIS WAS DEPICTED IN JESUS’ WORDS:

    John10:I am the door. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved:

    and HE SHALL GO IN, AND GO OUT, AND HAVE PASTURES

    CLEAR, THE SPECIFIC REFERENCE TO MAN, IS A REFERENCE TO THE SOUL, IN THE SPIRITUAL STATE,THROUGH JESUS’PROCESS, SYMBOLICALLY FROM WATER TO WINE

    AND THE PHRASE HE SHALL GO IN, AND GO OUT,  IS A REFERENCE THAT WHO ENTER HEAVEN, WOULD HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OF BEING BOTH MATTER, AND SPIRIT, AS HE FEELS! AND HAVE PASTURES , MEANS ALWAYS IN EXTREME BLISSS

    17And thy heart was lifted up with thy beauty: thou best lost thy wisdom in thy beauty, I have cast thee to the ground:

    OBVIOUS DUST

    I have set thee before the face of kings, that they might behold thee.

    18……… therefore I will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee,

    OBVIOUS THE ACTUAL DEAD MATERIAL WORLD WITH ITS CENTRE,HELL FIRE, WHO REPRESENTS GOD HIMSELF THE CONSUMING FIRE WHICH PURIFIES THE EVIL SPIRITS!

    to devour thee, and I will make thee as ashes upon the earth in the sight of all that see thee.

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL CAN WITH OUR EYES SEE THE SIZE OF ONE SPECK OF ASH? IF ANY ONE DOES SO HE WOULD BE LOOKING AT THE DEAD LIFELESS SPIRIT OF SATANA IN MATTER FORM, HIS FAVOURITE STATE!

    19All that shall see thee among the nations, shall be astonished at thee:

    AND HOW!!!!!

    thou art brought to nothing, and thou shalt never be any more. ARCHANGEL!

    BUT THE ENTIRE GOD’S KINGDOM VISIBLE TO BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH,

    BUT THROUGH GOD’S LOVE EVEN IF IT TAKES AN ENDLESS TIME!

    LOVE YOUR ENEMY

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #799095
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi C,

    What a vivid imagination you have.

    Technicolor deception.

    #799402
    carmel
    Participant

     

    What a vivid imagination you have.

    Technicolor deception.

    Nick,

    SO YOU JUST BELIEVE THAT ALL MY POSTS ARE ALL IMAGINATIONS!

    WHICH IN THE TRUTH, IS NOT AT ALL CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT IT IS ONLY A SPECK OF WHAT I, ALWAYS SUBJECT TO THE HOLY SPIRIT’S WILL,

    STILL HAVE TO REVEAL, WITH THE HOPE THAT YOU WOULD REALIZE THAT ON EARTH NO ONE COULD HAVE SUCH, WHAT YOU CALL

    IMAGINATION

    UNLESS IT IS COMING FROM ABOVE

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #799412
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi C,

    What gives you the idea that your speculations are from on high?

    #799987
    carmel
    Participant

     

    What gives you the idea that your speculations are from on high?

    Nick, and ALL

    NO SPECULATIONS AT ALL!

    CONSIDERING THAT up to now, IT HAS BEEN A MYSTERIOUS 10 YEAR PROCESS!

    Luke 12:49 “I have come to set fire to the earth, and I only wish it were already burning.”

    MAKE SURE NICK THAT YOU FORM PART OF THE ABOVE FIRE!

    Five days ago,14-6-15 at 07.00 GMT.. I received a FLASH of enlightenment, regarding THE HOLY TRINITY,”THE WORD.”

    Two Days ago 17-6-15, at 07.00. GMT, I received a flash of enlightenment again, regarding JESUS, AS “THE WORD” THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THE SON’S SPIRIT IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION.

    Today,19-6-15 I received another flash of enlightenment at 07.00 regarding THE WATER and BLOOD WHICH CAME OUT OF THE HEART OF JESUS,”THE WORD”

    and another at 08.00 GMT. Regarding both THE HEAVENLY TRIUNE “THE WORD” and the EARTHLY TRIUNE SPIRIT OF LUCIFER, also BY “THE WORD” HIDDEN IN THEM, IN THE REDEMPTION PROCESS OF THE WORLD, GENERAL MATTER,

    SPECIFICALLY MADE AND CREATED FOR THE PURIFICATION OF SOULS AND FLESH OF HUMANS,TO HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD, IN THE TRUTH! NOT AS THE JEWS WERE! JEREMIAH 31:31:34

    I received :

    three of them subsequently IN THE SAME TIME, PLACE, AND SPOT:

    AT THE HOLY MASS! and

    one of them, the one ,REGARDING THE WATER AND BLOOD OF JESUS, THE CHURCH, CAME WHILE

    PRAYING THE ROSARY!

    A meditation prayer related to both Jesus and Mary,

    THE WHOLE PROCESS by/in “THE WORD” JESUS’SPIRIT, THE KINGDOM OF GOD IN US, AND WITH US IN THE ENTIRE CREATION.

    WHICH WHEN ONE REFLECTS UPON, IT IS JUSTIFIED BECAUSE

    THE BLOOD OF JESUS, REPRESENTS JESUS’S OVER AND DONE WITH REDEMPTION OF THE FLESH, IN HIS PASSION AND DEATH , THE IMMACULATE FLESH BODY OF THE CHURCH,THE BRIDEGROOM TO BE!

    AND THE WATER OF JESUS REPRESENTS MARY’S SALVATION OF ALL SOULS, IN HER CURRENT DOLORES PASSION! THE SOUL OF THE CHURCH! THE BRIDE TO BE!

    THE FACT THAT HER SOUL, IN ACTUAL FACT IS “THE WORD”, JESUS! ALL BY HIM……

    confirmed in:

    Luke 2:35And thy own soul a sword shall pierce,that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.

    FOR NOW I TELL YOU ONLY AS MUCH, SIMPLY BECAUSE I AM SUBJECT TO OUR HOLY MOTHER,THE MOST BLESSED VIRGIN MARY,

    THE CURRENT FRUIT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT’S WORK, WHICH THE GOSPEL CLEARLY DECLARES IN LUKE 2:35 ABOVE!

    Peace and love in Jesus
    Charles

    #799988
    carmel
    Participant

     

    What gives you the idea that your speculations are from on high?

    Nick, and ALL,

    Now regarding THE ABOVE question if these ENLIGHTENMENTS are coming from on high, I would like to confirm that throughout all these ten years on heavennet, I always felt that I WAS GENERALLY GUIDED, AND ENRICHED BY mystical knowledge, but OBVIOUS SINCE I AM IN THIS CORRUPTED FLESH AND BLOOD BODY also intermixed with the devil’s meddling, which kept me sceptical for quite a while. From about three or four years ago I eliminated all doubts due to the fact that my entire life gradually throughout these ten years, became practically subject to OUR MOST BLESSED VIRGIN MARY.

    At first, although I believed that they were related to my contemplative kind of way I live, still considered that to talk about them, they would be accepted as mere coincidences. But the way things are happening now it is evidently clear that there is a hidden, and A HEAVENLY mysterious process UNDERWAY.

    In relation to my general experiences, I could speculate that it is related to the merging of JESUS/MARY’S church.

    Other people from the least to the most various kinds of relations with me, are somehow connected in these mysterious experiences, this applies also to all those on heavennet, both to those who answer the related posts, and also those who just READ THEM! One particular case worth mentioning is my encounter with MIKE,

    I SEND MY LOVE BROTHER IN JESUS, believing that you still NOW AND THEN, read a post I post, and somehow we would eventually encounter each other again TO ??????????

    In this moment in time I am not in the position to say more, subject to from on high!

    I Conclude with these verses in:

    2 Corinthians 1,Would to God ( ALMIGHTY)you could bear with some little of my folly: but do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous of you with the jealousy of

    GOD .(THE FATHER, IN THE PROCESS OF THE WORD,JESUS CHRIST, ISAIAH 9:6) For I have espoused you to one

    HUSBAND (THE SON of man, “THE WORD” Jesus, THE FLESH BODY) that I may present you as a chaste virgin to

    CHRIST. (THE HOLY SPIRIT, the son of God, THE WORD MADE FLESH, THE LORD)

    THE HOLY TRINITY IN “THE WORD”MADE FLESH GLORIFIED IN JESUS CHRIST !

    THE HOLY TRINITY BECAME QUATRAIN OF GOD!

    WHICH MEANS THAT HUMANS ARE ONE WITH GOD AND FATHER IN JESUS CHRIST, SEATED ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MOST HIGH

    JEREMIAH 31: 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

     

    3But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom we have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him. 5For I suppose that I have done nothing less than the great apostles. 6For although I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but in all things we have been made manifest to you.

    7 Or did I commit a fault, humbling myself, that you might be exalted? Because I preached unto you the gospel of God freely? 8 I have taken from other churches, receiving wages of them for your ministry. 9And, when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was wanting to me, the brethren supplied who came from Macedonia; and in all things I have kept myself from being burthensome to you, and so I will keep myself.

    10The truth of Christ is in me, that this glorying shall not be broken off in me in the regions of Achaia. 11Wherefore? Because I love you not? God knoweth it.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #799990
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi C,

    Yes the mariology deception has it’s advocates.

     

    #802750
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Word of GodWe know that God created all things through his Word.

    John 1:1-3
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning.  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    1 John 1:1-3
    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

    However, it is also written that God made all things through his son.

    Hebrews 1:2
    but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Colossians 1:15-17
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live; and there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created and through whom we live.

    There seems to be a direct link with the Word and the Son in the above verses as both are said to be the agent by which God created all things. Or did God make all things through his Word as well as the Son? If there was a time when there was only God and his Word as we read in John 1:1-3, then know that Jesus is not only described in similar terms as that Word but that he is actually called the Word of God too.

    Revelation 19:13
    He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    It seems that with God making all things through his Word, through his Son, and even through Wisdom, this either means that these are all different agents, thus God invoked a number of things to create the Universe, or they are one and the same, i.e., the Word is Jesus Christ before he was called Jesus. Christ.

    We are told that the Word became flesh and that is an obvious reference in a book devoted to Jesus Christ in a passage of scripture about the origins of Jesus Christ. So this either means that Jesus was newly created from the Word as some teach or that he is the Word but took on another form, that of flesh when he came to earth. The latter seems the more likely explanation given that God created all things through the Son and the Word and that Jesus Christ is even called the ‘Word of God’.

    Even if there were no direct references for Jesus being the Word of God, there would still be a whole raft of other verses to contend with. These verses speak of Jesus existence before he came as a man (outside of mentioning the Word).

    • “Before Abraham, I am”, – John 8:58
    • “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” – Jude 1:25,
    • He is before all things, and in him all things hold together –  Colossians 1:17.
    • etc.

    Finally, we are told to not trust in the flesh, so if Jesus is only flesh, then should we trust him? After all we are explicitly taught that we are cursed if we trust in man. When we trust Jesus, are we trusting in man or the Word of God?

    Jeremiah 17:5
    This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

    For more on this subject try this writing:
    Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth

    #802754
    terraricca
    Participant

    Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image,
    in the image of God he created him;
    male and female he created them.

    who is the own IMAGE OF GOD ? the WORD /Jesus

    so God says ;”in the image of God he created himso Adam was created in HIS OWN IMAGE WHO IS CHRIST /the WORD

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