John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 17,841 through 17,860 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #785330
    Wakeup
    Participant

    [color=green]The WORD made flesh has been ignored for 2000years and they can not understand how, and why?
    The written WORD is God’s WORD. Ignoring it; equals ignoring the WORD of GOD.
    In the beginning was the WORD, of GOD. God’s WORD was with God.
    GOD’S WORD was GOD.
    Ignoring GOD’S spoken WORD is THE SAME AS ignoring GOD.
    Ignoring the WORD made flesh equals ignoring the MAN JESUS; now in heaven.
    This they can not see, because of the covering vail. Because of the oppressors.[/color]

    [color=purple]The WORD of GOD is the old and new testament.
    And all the prophesies included. All that is written in the Holy Bible.
    They have even ignored some of the WORDS written in the new testament, because of the strong wine.
    They worship their imaginary Jesus, Not the real Jesus. Because they have ignored the flesh of the real Jesus.
    They have watered down the real flesh and blood of Jesus with some of their own concoctions.
    And have swallowed that instead, not knowing, and not caring if it is polluted or not; just swallowed it up.
    And feeling good and justified, and righteous. Not knowing that they are worshipping another Jesus and another gospel.
    Woe; the fire of purification is going to be very hot for you, and is coming soon.
    Get yourself prepared; unless you repent and start eating and drinking HIS real blood.
    Spue out the strong wine; and start eating and drinking HIS REAL FLESH AND BLOOD which is everlasting life.
    The written WORD is The WORD of GOD that was made flesh and spoke verbally.
    Can you understand that; can you not?[/color]

    [color=blue]Shalom.
    wakeup.[/color]

    #785350
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WU,

    Then comes obedience to the commands

    Then you can see the kingdom.

     

    Until you obey them the food can do you no good but just remove excuses.

    #785428
    Wakeup
    Participant

    [color=purple]God uses very harsh words concerning the truth.[/color]

    2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; [color=red]because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.[/color].
    [color=green]THE TRUTH WILL SAVE LIVES.[/color]

    2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    [color=purple]ANYONE WITH NO TRUTH WILL BELIEVE A LIE.[/color]

    2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    [color=red]ANYONE THAT BELIEVE NOT THE TRUTH WILL BE DAMNED[/color]

    2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit [COLOR=RED]and belief of the truth:[/COLOR]
    [color=green] TRUE; BUT EACH OF US WILL NOT KNOW, IF WE DONT HAVE THE TRUTH[/color]

    2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    [color=red] WE ARE CALLED BY THE GOSPELS; BUT WE ALSO DO IGNORE SOME SCRIPTURES IN THE GOSPELS?[/color]

    2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
    [color=blue] TAUGHT OF THE FULL MEASURE OF THE WORD OF GOD, NOT WATERED DOWN.[/color]

    2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
    [color=green] HOPING THAT WE WILL BE ACCEPTED IN THE RESURRECTION.[/color]

    2 Thessalonians 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
    [color=purple]COMFORTH YOUR SELFVES BY PURE GOLD TRIED BY FIRE; NOT BY FOOLSE GOLD.[/color]

    [color=blue]wakeup.[/color]

    #785485
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WU,

    Are you safe because your thoughts and words rarely reflect the truth?

    #787932
    Grasshopper
    Participant

    In a closed discussion between @Lightenup and @bodhitharta, @Lightenup wrote :

    Sometimes ‘eternal’ does mean always existent. The eternal life that is spoken about in 1 John 1 is Jesus and the Bible clearly tells us that He is the source of life. The source of life would not have a source of his life or that source would be the source of life.

    Acts 3:15 and you killed the source of life, whom God raised from the dead. We are witnesses to that.

    Her case was not made. Because to read Acts 3:15 and to come to the conclusion about it referring to Jesus as the source of life, and then somehow try and show that the verse is implying that Jesus IS God,  would be to read more into the verse than is appropriate; To do that from this verse would be to ignore the context of the Gospel – which is that we only truly live, or have life because of Christ (spiritual sense), and also, that we only receive life through Christ (eternal sense).

    There’s nothing about Acts 3:15 that proves Lightenup’s case. But rather, this verse simply clarifies who Jesus is to the world – which is the source of our life – for without him we are dead, spiritually,  and will eventually be dead, literally and eternally.

    Philippians 1:21
    For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

    Hebrews 5:9
    In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him.

    So the Gospel is saying that as far as us having life (in a spiritual and eternal sense,) Jesus is the only source. Because we cannot receive anything without going through Christ – this is God’s will. God gave Him all authority..so as far as we’re concerned Jesus IS the source of life – because if we do not accept God’s Son as Lord, God will not allow us to live.

    It would be as if God had made one of us Messiah. That person, from that point on, would have been called the source of life.

    There is nothing in Acts 3:15 that makes the case that Jesus was always the source of life – but rather, He (Christ) NOW, as far as we’re concerned,  IS the source of life.

    ~~~~~~~~~
    Grasshopper

    #787940
    Anastas
    Participant

    Kerwin,

    It would be extremely difficult to debate a gnostic who believes the old testament’s God is Satan, himself. Wicked and puffed up servants are they who put their faith, not in the teachings of the scriptures, but of their own understanding.

    Its a shame that this thread was intended to show who the Word was before he became flesh, but instead gave a skeptical Trinitarian no reason to see his fault.

    #787941
    kerwin
    Participant

    Anastas,

    Thank you for you advice.

    It appears to my eyes that he is no open to seeking God or his kingdom but perhaps my words will be used to bring him to that point at a later time.  In the meantime I can use the discussion to learn more of those things that are beneficial to my own search though that may not be his intent.

     

    #788801
    PBTB
    Participant

    <h3>Quoted from the Word of YHVH Bible available for free download at http://www.fireofthelord.com</h3&gt;
    <h3>John 1</h3>
    <sup>1—</sup>In the beginning was the word, and the word was with YHVH Elohim, and the word was YHVH. <sup>2—</sup>His word was in the beginning within YHVH. <sup>3—</sup>All things were made by reason of YHVH and without YHVH was not anything made that was made. <sup>4—</sup>In YHVH is his Spirit; and his Spirit is the light of men. <sup>5—</sup>And the light of his Spirit shines in darkness; but the darkness does not understand.

    —-

    Note for John 1:1-5— (see also 1John 1:5) John 1:1-5 are pivotal verses in understanding who YHVH is. The Greek words “zoe” translated to life and “phos” translated to light give verses 4 and 5 a very definitive meaning. The life of a person is in the spirit. YaHavah’s Spirit is more than life, it is light in the darkness, thus John 1:4-5 expresses YaHavah’s life and light.

    The gospel of John tells us about rebirth in the Spirit of YaHavah as represented by the face of an eagle on the fourth Living Creature of Ezekiel. Please refer to the New Testament introduction and table of the four gospels.

    John wrote a progression of thought to show his readers that YHVH, his word, and his Spirit are one. (1John 5:6-8) What is in the thoughts and heart of YaHavah, he will accomplish. His reasoning is his thoughts and heart; they are YHVH.

    These verses testify that YHVH, his word, and his Spirit are one. John said the same thing in his first epistle in verse 7. 1John 5:7— For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, his word, and his Holy Spirit: and these three are one. The Father manifests the thoughts of his heart by the omnipotence and omnipresence of his Spirit. YaHavah is one. We have one Supreme Deity whose name in Hebrew is YHVH (YaHavah).

    John declared the truth of Genesis 1:1-5 and 2:4-5. YHVH is the beginning and He is the end. Literally, the spoken word of YHVH created all and the spoken word of YHVH will judge all. Jesus was conceived in the womb of a virgin by the spoken word of YHVH. Some have placed a metaphoric meaning to John 1:1 calling Jesus YHVH’s Word. But John makes it very clear that YHVH and his (spoken) word are the same. His words come from him even if they are spoken by his chosen prophets or his son.

    Jesus is the core of YHVH’s plan of salvation and He is “YHVH with us” by the omnipresence of the Spirit of YHVH (anointed). “YHVH with us” or as commonly stated “God with us” was manifested in the anointing of the seven spirits of YHVH. All of the following references explain what the anointing is and the sequence of fulfillment:

    1. Isaiah 11:1-2—Promised anointing of Jesus in the seven spirits of YaHavah
    2. Daniel 9:24—Prophesied anointing of Jesus called the Holy one
    3. Matthew 3:16-17—Fulfillment of the anointing represented by the descending dove and voice of YHVH. Even so, Jesus was filled with the Spirit of YHVH from the day of his birth. (Luke 1:15)
    4. John 3:5-8—Jesus told his disciples that one must be born again in the spirit
    5. Revelation 5:6—Jesus ascended to heaven to receive the Kingdom of YHVH and release the outpouring of the seven spirit anointing to all who accept the whole truth of Jesus Christ
    6. Acts 2:1-4—Fulfillment of the outpouring of the seven spirit anointing represented by the wind in the upper room and flames on the heads of the disciples. One must be born again in the Spirit of YaHavah to see the Kingdom of YHVH.
    7. The seven spirits are demonstrated in Proverbs 8.
      —-
    #788802
    terraricca
    Participant

    PBTB

    SORRY BUT TO ME John 1;1 reads ;

    Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was “a” God.
    Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.

    for the beginning in verse one is not the same beginning in verse two ,

    and the rest of your explanation is only a men made interpretation what is not reflecting God ‘s glory

    #788803
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi PBTB,

    1 Jn 5.7 is the spurious added verse.

    A GOD is opinion.

     

    The Word is of the Spirit

     

     

    #788806
    kerwin
    Participant

    John 1:1- is a passage that many debate but their is no debate that Jesus Christ is a human being born under the law and born of a woman.

    #788808
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    Jesus was born of Mary.

    Known in prophecy from birth as Christ

    But he was only the anointed one from the Jordan.

    #788809
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    PBTB…….I AGREE WITH YOU GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE AND THE SAME, JUST AS WE AND OUR WORDS ARE ONE AND THE SAME. Many think John 1:1 is referencing two different being , but nothing could be more wrong. TRINITARIANS us it to try to justify a triune God others here use it to try to justify that Jesus was a preexisting God of some kind. Most here do not understand that there are seven spirits of GOD even though scripture is clear reguarding them. I think our understandings are close. JESUS recieved the spirits of God when he was anointed at tge Jordan River. Jesus said over and over that God the Father was “in” him, God who is spirit indwelt Jesus , Jesus also said hecoulddo nothing of himself, the Father who was “in” him did the works.

    There is “only” one God and “one” meadiator, between God and man , the “man” Jesus the anointed one who is called the Christ. IMO

    PEACE and love to you and yours. ………………..gene

    #797759
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB,

    The seven angels of God?

    Where is God said to have seven SPIRITS and where are supporting verses?

    1Cor 12 and eph 4 make it very plain the Spirit of God is ONE.

    Or is this another of your own ideas dressed as truth?

    #797778
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    Is the WORD a being?

    The WORD that proceeded from God?

    The WORD that had life in himself?

    The WORD that became for us the source of eternal life?

    #797814
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Rev 1:4……JOHN to the seven church’s which are in Asia, Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is and which was, and which is to come, and from the SEVEN SPIRITS which ARE before his THRONE.

    REV 3:3….AND unto the angel of the church in Sardis write, these things says he that has the “SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD”, and the seven stars, I know your works,that you have a name that you live, and are dead.
    NICK……Its not my fault you dont know what spirits are or what intellects each contributes to our mental thinking. One being can have many spirits effecting him and supplying it’s particular intellects into his mind, that is how i know where your accusitory spirit comes from. You words, those, (intellegent utterances), give the spirits working in you away. But to show you there scripture the says there ARE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD. Read below and this time try to truly study them this time.

    Rev 4:3…..AND out of the trhone, proceeded lightinings and thunderings and voices: and the were SEVEN LAMPS OF FIRE burning before the throne, which ARE the “SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD” .

    REV 5:6…..AND I beheld and lo, in the midest of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns (symbolic for powers) and SEVEN EYES (SYMBOLIC FOR TYPES OF DESTINC INTELLECTS THAT ENLIGHTEN THE MIND) which ARE THE “SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD” (now pay attintion Nick,) sent forth INTO “ALL” the earth.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……………gene

    Nick……JESUS HAS ALL SEVEN OF GOD’S SPIRITS “IN” HIM they ACT as EYES that give him his understandings, THOSE SPIRITS REPRESENT THE FULLNESS OF GOD. EACH SPIRIT REPRESENTS A DESTINCT TYPE AND KIND OF GODS OWN “INTELLECT, and by them JESUS SHALL SET UP AND RULE THE KINGDOM OF GOD until he turns it all over to GOD THE FATHER at the end of his thousand year reign, and become subject to the FATHER LIKE ALL OTHERS WILL BE.

    #797822
    NickHassan
    Participant

    hi GB,

    These teachings are not from the Spirit but your own intellect.

    Each church has an angel assigned to it, not an aspect of the mind of God.

    #797958
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick…..the word angel is not referencing a spirit, at all but a messenger , a gels are not spirits eventhough GOD MAKES THEIR SPIRITS THEY HAVE IN THEM. FACE ITNICK YOU HAVEN’T A CLUE WHAT A SPIRIT EVEN IS. DO YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE THESPIRIT OF WISDOM IS A ANGEL, OR THE SPIRITOF A SOUND MIND IS AN ANGEL, OR THE SPIRIT OF THE FEAR OF THE LORD IS AN ANGEL, OR A UNCLEAN SPIRIT IS AN ANGEL, Or the spirit of truth is an angel?

    TELL ME WHAT DOES THIS MEAN TO YOU, ISA 11:1……An the SPIRIT OF THE LORD, SHALL REST upon him, the SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING, the SPIRIT OF COUNSEL and MIGHT, the SPIRIT OF KNOWLEDGE and of the FEAR OF THE LORD; AND SHALL MAKE HIM OF QUICK UNDERSTANDING.

    AND YOU HAVETHE NERVE TO SAY SPIRITS ARE NOT INTELLECTS GIVEN TO US. SO TELL US WHAT ARE THOSE SPIRIT THAT ARE UPON HIM DOING IF NOT IMPARTING TO HIM THEIR INTELLECTS? DO YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE THEY ARE ANGELS, ASYOU LIE ABOUT THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD BEING ANGELS.

    YOUR TEACHINGS ABOUT ANGELS BEING SPIRITS ARE WHAT IS FALSE, teachings and not found in scriptures. Show us where scripture say angels are spirits, your speculations are from yourself and are not true.

    peace and love to you and yours. ………………..gene

    #797978
    NickHassan
    Participant

    hi GB,

    Can you not discern between the many angels and the ONE Holy Spirit?

    God gives many spiritual gifts to those who are blessed in His Spirit.[1cor12]

    But those gifts are not separate from the One Spirit. You promote SEPARATION?

    #798042
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nick…..YOU DO NOT DECERN WHAT SPIRITS ARE, THEY ARE NOT ANGELS, they are what is in angels, just as they are in Us also. THERE IS ONE THRONE, BUT the SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD ARE BEFORE IT, and those are the SEVEN DESTINCT SPRITURIAL INTELLECTS OF ONE GOD. HERE O ISREAL THE “LORD” OUR GOD IS “ONE” LORD. ONE LORD WHO USES HIS SEVEN SPIRITS TO CREATE AND BRING ABOUT HIS WILL IN ALL HIS CREATION. That total, “ONE” LORD, WHO HAS SEVEN SPIRITS, EQUALS “ONE” GOD, GET IT?

    Your seening each spirit as a individual person, they are not persons, but are what is “in” persons or any life forms. They are what gives man, angels, and GOD the ability to see (comprehend) and understand things, they transfer to that person their particular destinct intellects. THEY ARE INTELECTIAL POWERS OR FORCES THAT WORK IN ALL CREATION TO BRING ABOUT THEIR DESTINCT AND PATICULAR ATRIBUTES, THEY PRODUCE THEIR OWN COGNESITY of LIFE IN THE THINGS THEY ARE IN. They are powers that prouce and effect in what they are in, you can’t see them only what the produce, that you can see. Just as Jesus said, spirit is like the wind, you hear the sound thereof and you can see the effects, but you can’t tell from where it come or where it goes, notice it is called an “it”, not a person.

    Nick, face it, you haven’t a clue what a spirit is, or you would have understood the scriptures i post to you. They show clearly what i am saying. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours. ………………gene

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