John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 17,821 through 17,840 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #780465
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Colter,

    Glad to see you back!

    ___________
    God bless
    Ed J ([url=http://bible.worthwhile.com/bible.php?b=josh&c=22&v=34&d=22&w=34]Joshua 22:34[/url])
    [url=http://www.holycitybiblecode.org]http://www.holycitybiblecode.org[/url] _________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    [color=blue][size=12]”Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.” – JEHOVAH GOD[/size][/color]

    #780470
    carmel
    Participant

    So you are getting your teaching from other sources than Scripture?

    Kerwin,

    REGARDING YOUR QUESTION:

    Are you perhaps speaking of another verse as supporting evidence?

    I SAID:

    YES AND NO, SINCE IT’S ALL DEPENDS ON ENLIGHTENMENT, IN CONJUNCTION WITH OTHER MYRIAD GENERAL MYSTICAL WRITINGS!

    SO THE OTHER SOURCE IS ONLY MAKING IT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO DISCERN WHAT IS HIDDEN IN OUR BIBLE, AND I ONLY ACCEPT IT AS LONG AS IT DOESN’T INTERFERE, OR HINDER IN A WAY MY BELIEF!

    THE KORAN ITSELF GAVE ME LIGHT AND STRENGTHENED MY BELIEF!

    BUT I HAD TO READ IT FIRST!

    OUR SCRIPTURE IS NOT LITERALLY DISCERNED, BUT SPIRITUALLY, SINCE IT IS GOD’ WORD!

    WE MUST READ ALL SPIRITUALLY RELATED WRITINGS! SINCE OUR WORLD REPRESENTS THE TREE OF GOOD AND EVIL , SO THERE’S NOTHING JUST GOOD, OR JUST EVIL, EVEN GOD HIMSELF WHO IS ONLY GOOD, BUT ONCE HE ENTERED IN OUR WORLD, FIRST HE HAD TO ESTABLISH A PROCESS “THE WORD” REV.13:8,TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR HIM TO BE BOTH GOOD AND EVIL,BOTH LIGHT AND DARKNESS,AND SO ON, CREATED ALL, BECAME FLESH AND IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, BUT IN THE SAME TIME REMAINED DIVINE AND IMMACULATE!

    TOTALLY FROM HEAVEN!

    AND ERADICATED EVIL FROM THROUGHOUT THE PROCESS OF OUR CREATION! SOULS!

    WHICH ACTUALLY IS THE PURIFICATION OF THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF BOTH HEAVENS, SINCE THE REBEL, EARTH SINCE ADAM, AND IN THE FUTURE IN ORDER TO ALL BECOME:

    CHILDREN OF DIVINE PARENTS, IN ONE GOD, ALL IN ALL

    THE FACT THAT SCRIPTURE’S TERM IS DUAL!

    HEAVEN AND EARTH, MALE AND FEMALE, SOUL AND FLESH, SPIRIT AND MATTER, GOOD AND EVIL, AND THE LIST IS ENDLESS!

    ONLY THE SON, “THE WORD” THE ONLY MEDIATOR SPIRIT ACCOMPLISHED ALL AND MADE THEM ONE

    Genesis 2:24 Wherefore a man THE SON shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #780495
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    SO THE OTHER SOURCE IS ONLY MAKING IT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO DISCERN WHAT IS HIDDEN IN OUR BIBLE, AND I ONLY ACCEPT IT AS LONG AS IT DOESN’T INTERFERE, OR HINDER IN A WAY MY BELIEF!

    Are you saying you use those other sources to gain insight into what Scripture is saying?

    Have you tested the spirit of that insight to see if it came from God?

    #780498
    carmel
    Participant

    Have you tested the spirit of that insight to see if it came from God?

    Kerwin,

    MORE THAN YOU THINK!

    THE FACT THAT I REMAINED , AND STRENGTHENED MY BELIEF!

    HAVE YOU EVER TESTED THE SPIRIT OF YOUR INSIGHT?

    IF YES, WHAT HOLDING YOU FROM SPECIFICALLY ASK SOMETHING WHICH YOU DO NOT APPROVE IN MY POSTS,TO TEST BOTH SPIRITS?

    #780500
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    Your teachings add to Scripture so the only challenge often have is to point out what you write is not written in Scripture and most likely you are already aware that is true. I have actually made that point though not in that summed up fashion. In addition I challenged you when you used Genesis 1:1 to support your claim that Lucifer created the earth.

    I assume you are aware Lucifer is not a Hebrew word but rather is Latin in origin and means light bearer and is used to speak of the morning star. Heylel ben Shachar is the Hebrew variant and approximately means “Heylel son of dawn.”

    #780580
    carmel
    Participant

     

    I assume you are aware Lucifer is not a Hebrew word but rather is Latin in origin and means light bearer and is used to speak of the morning star. Heylel ben Shachar is the Hebrew variant and approximately means “Heylel son of dawn.

    Kerwin,

    “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

    SO WE STICK TO SCRIPTURE SON OF THE MORNING

    MORNING IS THE BEGINNING OF THE DAY!
    MORNING IS ALSO THE BEGINNING OF LIGHT!

    NOW GOD IS LIGHT!

    SO LUCIFER WAS FOR SURE A

    SON OF GOD, SON OF LIGHT, OR LIGHT OF LIGHT, OR LIGHT BEARER

    IS THERE A DOUBT THAT LUCIFER WAS THE BEGINNING OF CREATION!

    ALSO THE FACT THAT ONLY HE IS ASSOCIATED WITH SO VITAL EVENT! THE LOST SHEEP!

    NOW READ HEREUNDER JOB

    IN JOB 38 5:7 GOD GAVE DETAIL REGARDING THE CREATION OF THE FIRST EARTH.

    38 8:11 GOD REFERRED TO THE REBEL.

    38 12:20 GOD REFERRED TO OUR NEW MORTAL CREATION.

    NOW READ 38:21 Knowest thou it, because THOU WAST THEN BORN? or because THE NUMBERS OF THY DAYS IS GREAT?

    THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO LUCIFER SINCE HE WAS ALREADY BORN, WHEN ALL THOSE EVENTS OCCURRED!

    ALSO ALL GOD’S DETAILED DESCRIPTIONS REGARDING OUR CREATION WAS ALSO DIRECTED TO LUCIFER/SATAN DUE TO THE FACT THAT SATAN NEVER PARTICIPATED IN OUR CREATION, HE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT IT, HE ONLY CAME INTO THE SCENE ON ADAM’S SIN!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

     

    #780588
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    We do not know much about Heylel ben Shachar, aja Lucifer, is that what is credited as a Canaanite source dispirits him as assaulting heaven in order to take control. There is nothing about him creating earth even among the Canaanites. The closest I have heard is the Gnostic claim that the demiurge created the earth.

    It is written:

    Job 38:4-7New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
    Tell Me, if you [a]have understanding,
    5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
    Or who stretched the line on it?
    6 “On what were its bases sunk?
    Or who laid its cornerstone,
    7 When the morning stars sang together
    And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
    Footnotes:

    Job 38:4 Lit know understanding

    So God declares he laid the foundations of the earth and that what the morning stars did was sing and shout for joy as the cornerstone was laid.

    #780595
    carmel
    Participant

    4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
    Tell Me, if you [a]have understanding,
    5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
    Or who stretched the line on it?
    6 “On what were its bases sunk?
    Or who laid its cornerstone,
    7 When the morning stars sang together
    And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    Kerwin,

    THE ENTIRE BOOK OF JOB IS A REFERENCE TO GOD’S WORD, IN CREATION OF HEAVENS AND EARTH, Genesis 1:1,LUCIFER, JESUS, AND ALSO GLORIFICATION!

    THE ABOVE IS DIRECTED TO LUCIFER,AS I SAID, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT LUCIFER BELIEVED THAT HE CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH THROUGH HIS OWN POWER, HE BELIEVED THAT HE WAS AUTONOMOUS! HE BELIEVED THAT WHATEVER GOD GAVE HIM BELONGS TO HIM FOR ETERNITY AND NEVER WOULD BE SUBJECT TO GOD! SO HE OPTED TO PLEASE HIMSELF, LOVE HIMSELF, MORE THAN LOVE GOD, TO THE EXTENT THAT HE OPTED TO CONFRONT GOD DIRECTLY FOR MANHOOD,AND ALSO TO BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH IN THE UNIVERSES AS A NEGATIVE SOURCE, SO HE TOOK IT FOR GRANTED THAT EARTH WAS HIS WORK! WHICH IN A WAY IT WAS SINCE GOD USED HIM AS HIS CARRIER, AND THROUGH HIM GOD STARTED TO BE IN MOTION, SINCE ETERNALLY;

    HIS SPIRIT OCCUPIES THE ENTIRE UNIVERSES! SO HE IS OMNIPRESENCE!

    SO WHEN YOU READ ALL THE ABOVE WITHIN THIS CONCEPT, IT IS EVIDENTLY CLEAR THAT GOD WAS TALKING TO SATAN THROUGH JOB’S BOOK!

    NOW I GIVE YOU ANOTHER INSIGHT, TO PROVE TO YOU WHAT OTHER MYSTICAL READINGS MADE ME SEE OUR SCRIPTURES MORE CLEAR!

    When the morning stars sang together
    And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    WHO WHERE THE :

    MORNING STARS?

    THE SONS OF GOD?

    WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO CREATURES!

    HOW DID THEY SANG TOGETHER?

    AND SHOUTED FOR JOY?

    ALL THE ABOVE IS A REFERENCE TO THE VERY FIRST EVER EARTH Genesis 1:1 NOT OURS, WHICH DEFINITELY THERE WAS NO JOY, BUT DARKNESS Genesis 1:2

    ALSO THE FACT THAT THERE WAS THAT KIND OF JOY AND SHOUTING, SIMPLY BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT YET OTHER PLANET IN EXISTENCE!

    AND EARTH WAS ESTABLISHED AND BECAME VISIBLE THROUGH THE MORNING STARS, AND SONS OF GOD THEMSELVES, THEY FORMED EARTH EARTH WAS ALL SPIRITUAL NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT IT WAS VISIBLE, AND IT COULD ALSO DISINTEGRATE, IN MERE SPECK O A SECOND,GOD FROM WITHIN THEMSELVES, THROUGH “THE WORD,” DIRECTED LUCIFER AND HIS ANGELS AND CREATED!

    SO NOT MORTAL, NOT IN NEED OF THE SUN,THE SUN WAS NOT IN EXISTENCE YET! IT WAS LIT BY ITSELF, THERE WAS NO MORNING AND NIGHT IN THAT KIND OF PERFECTION! ALL WAS IN GOD’S HARMONY! ALL LIT!

    THIS IS CONFIRMED IN REV. And night shall be no more: and they shall not need the light of the lamp, nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall enlighten them, and they shall reign for ever and ever.

    IT IS ALSO CLEAR IN SCRIPTURE THAT GOD DESIGNED EARTH IN THAT KIND OF SPIRITUAL STATE AND ALSO HABITABLE,WITH NON MORTAL CREATURES, NOT WITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT THEY WERE VISIBLE IN SPIRITUAL FLESH, AND ONLY SONS OF GOD DAUGHTERS WERE NOT YET ESTABLISHED!

    OBVIOUS ALL IN GOD’S SPIRIT!

    BUT ONCE LUCIFER REBELLED, THERE WAS AN NEGATIVE ENERGY, DARKNESS WAS ALL OVER THE UNIVERSES, NEW TEMPORARY LIGHT HAD TO BE ESTABLISHED, NEW EARTH HAD TO BE CREATED BUT ALL IN RELATION TO THEN NEW EXISTING CONFLICT.

    THEREFORE MALE AND FEMALE WERE TO REPRESENT THE ACTUAL TWO OPPOSING ENERGIES!
    MALE FOR GOD, AND FEMALE FOR LUCIFER! FOR THE BATTLE TO ACHIEVE MANHOOD! OBVIOUS ON EARTH,

    READING ISAIAH 45 IS A CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT GOD WAS REFERRING TO LUCIFER, SINCE STUBBORNLY HE PROCLAIMED THAT HE WAS A GOD, GOD OF EARTH!

    18For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens, God himself that formed the earth, and made it, the very maker thereof: he did not create it in vain: he formed it to be inhabited.HERE GOD IS REFERRING TO THE ORIGINAL EARTH WHICH WAS NON MORTAL, SPIRITUAL, WHICH EVENTUALLY WOULD BE ESTABLISHED AS DECLARED IN REV.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #780597
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    If you wish to put your faith what is not contained in Scripture then that is your choice as for me I see no reason to make up stories even when Scripture tells a piece of one.

    As for the morning stars and the sons of God they may be the same kind of creatures though there seems different kinds of angels. In the passage I quote the difference may have been in the actions and it what sounded more poetic. There is evidence of messengers and servant, the first moving like the wind and the last burning like flames of fire.

    #780647
    carmel
    Participant

     

    If you wish to put your faith what is not contained in Scripture then that is your choice

    Kerwin,

    THE CONTEXT IS NOT REGARDING FAITH AS SUCH BUT REGARDING GOD’S MYSTERIES, AND INSIGHTS, SOMETHING WHICH SCRIPTURES ARE NOT PURPOSELY CLEAR, AND ALSO IT IS DUE TO OUR FAITH THAT WE KEEP ON SEARCHING, NOT SEARCHING FAITH ITSELF! CLEAR?

    BUT TRUTH!

    ONLY FOR THOSE WHO IN THE TRUTH IN ORDER TO LOVE IN UTMOST ABUNDANCE GOD ACCORDING TO HIS SPIRIT, ARE READY TO KEEP ON SEARCHING, AND KNOCKING TILL THEIR LAST BREATH TO BE JUSTIFIED IN JESUS CHRIST, BY JESUS CHRIST ACCORDINGLY, INSTEAD OF REMAINING PASSIVE, LAZY, HIGH IN SPIRIT TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY TAKE IT FOR GRANTED, THAT ARE SAVED FOR SURE!

    Ephesians 1:8 Which hath superabounded in us in all wisdom and prudence,

    PAUL ABOVE MADE IT CLEAR THAT THROUGH THE AMOUNT OF WISDOM HE RECEIVED HE HAD TO PREACH AND ESTABLISH CHRIST! NOT BY OT BIBLE, WHICH THE WAY IT WAS ESTABLISHED HE CALLED IT DUNG!

    9That he might make known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in him,

    OK? AGAIN HE MADE IT CLEAR:

    HE MAKE IT KNOWN UNTO US THE MYSTERIES OF HIS WILL?

    SO GOD’S WISDOM ,AND MYSTERIES, ARE NOT AVAILABLE IN SCRIPTURES UNLESS REVEALED BY GOD HIMSELF WHICH HE DID, THROUGHOUT THESE TWO THOUSAND YEARS! COMMENCED THROUGH PAUL!

    TO CONFIRM THAT HIS CONSISTENCIES, THAT AS HE REVEALED HIS MYSTERIES TO PROPHETS REGARDING THE FUTURE REDEMPTION, HE ALSO REVEALS THEM FOR THE FUTURE SALVATION! ESPECIALLY SINCE HE,THROUGH JESUS’DEATH ACQUIRED REDEMPTION FOR ALL, AND OVERALL CONTROL OF ALL THE UNIVERSES,

    as for me I see no reason to make up stories even when Scripture tells a piece of one.

    Kerwin,

    WHAT YOU’VE JUST SAID IS A STORY IN ITSELF!

    WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE IN, IF YOU CONSIDER USELESS STORIES,EVEN WHAT SCRIPTURES SAYS?

    As for the morning stars and the sons of God they may be the same kind of creatures though there seems different kinds of angels. In the passage I quote the difference may have been in the actions and it what sounded more poetic. There is evidence of messengers and servant, the first moving like the wind and the last burning like flames of fire.

    Kerwin,

    THAT’S MY POINT, YOU CAN SPECULATE!

    BUT I MYSELF ONLY LOOK FOR THE TRUTH, AND THIS TRUTH IS AVAILABLE IN BLACK AND WHITE, BY GOD HIMSELF, LIKE THE BIBLE ITSELF IS, WHICH AGAIN YOU ARE NOT READY TO ACCEPT, OBVIOUS IT IS A COMPLETE HIDDEN MYSTERIOUS STORY, AND ONLY GOD’S WISDOM WOULD MAKE IT CLEAR!

    James 1:5 But if any of you want wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men abundantly, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea, which is moved and carried about by the wind. 7Therefore let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8A double minded man is inconstant in all his ways.

    THAT’S WHAT I PRACTICE!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #780672
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    There is a difference between speculating and going by the evidence and I do not regard all evidence outside of Scripture as wisdom speaks wheresoever she chooses. I do have standards for the what I consider acceptable evidence and none of what you say comes up to those standards.

    The message of the new covenant is to receive and live by the Spirit of God. The one who does that does not give into any temptation in their life. It is learning to do that by which we mature in Christ.

    #780673
    kerwin
    Participant

    Spock,

    Jesus came down from heaven, achieved unquestioned sovereignty and returned to heaven, he is still God of this world and still the Son of the Universal Father.

    Illogical as Satan is God of this world of sin. Jesus is King of all things in heaven and on earth but God has not yet put all things under his feet.

    #780824
    carmel
    Participant

    I do have standards for the what I consider acceptable evidence and none of what you say comes up to those standards.

    Kerwin,

    WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER ACCEPTABLE EVIDENCE, RELATED TO SPIRITUAL REALM

    ALSO CAN YOU SUBSTANTIATE, HOW WHAT I SAY IS NOT WITHIN YOUR standards for what YOU consider acceptable evidence?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #780914
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    A Jewish teaching. First Century or before is best. Testing its spirit against those of Scripture. If any evidence is sparse I will take guidance from a non-Jewish source that seems related to the words of Scripture. It is usually only for context for a passage. A hope to understand God’s words correctly.

    As God laid the foundations of the earth the angels celebrated and there is no reason for me to believe Lucifer was not among them as they celebrated God’s action.

    #781033
    carmel
    Participant

     

    As God laid the foundations of the earth the angels celebrated and there is no reason for me to believe Lucifer was not among them as they celebrated God’s action.

    Kerwin,

    YOU SAID:

    the angels celebrated and there is no reason for me to believe Lucifer was not among them as they celebrated God’s action.

    NOW YOU QUOTED SCRIPTURES, BUT YOU MUST KEEP IN MIND, THAT LITERALLY, SCRIPTURES ARE NOTHING AS EVIDENCE!

    JESUS SAID: YOU MUST ADORE GOD IN THE SPIRIT AND TRUTH!

    NOW ADORE GOD IN THE , SPIRIT AND TRUTH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TEMPLE ADORATION, LIKE ONE ON HIS KNEES AND BOW HIS HEAD DOWN TO THE FLOOR SINCE JESUS HIMSELF SAID:

    ….believe me, that the hour cometh, when you shall neither on this mountain, not in Jerusalem, adore the Father

    SO THE WORD “ADORE” IS DIRECTED IN THE TRUTH FOR ALL OUR ENTIRE LIFE IN RELATION TO LOVE GOD AND TO LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR AS YOURSELF! WHICH IS THE BIGGEST COMMANDMENT

    NOW I GAVE YOU THE ABOVE EXAMPLE ,ONLY TO MAKE YOU AWARE THAT:

    When the morning stars sang together
    And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ACTUAL SINGING AND SHOUTING!

    IN FACT EVEN SCRIPTURE ITSELF MADE A PARTICULAR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN:

    SANG TOGETHER AND SHOUTING FOR JOY

    WHAT IS THE REASON THAT THEY ARE CELEBRATING THE CREATION OF THE FIRST EVER PLANET IN DIFFERENT MANNER?

    SO WHY DIDN’T ALL SANG, AND ALL SHOUTED?

    WHY NOT THE MORNING STARS, AND SONS OF GOD SANG AND SHOUTED TOGETHER?

    ISN’T IT OBVIOUS THAT SINCE THEY MANIFESTED AND EXPRESSED DIFFERENT JUBILATION IT IS FOR SURE A REFERENCE TO DIFFERENT PARTICIPATION IN THE CREATION AND EXISTENCE OF THE FIRST EVER EARTH THROUGH THEIR OWN PARTICULAR SUBSTANTIAL, SENSITIVE, AND DIRECT INVOLVEMENT IN THE PLANET ITSELF AS SPIRITUAL MATTER?

    FUNCTIONED FOR A PARTICULAR PERIOD ONLY IN GOD’S LOVE AND HARMONY?

    WHICH DEFINITELY WAS ESTABLISHED, AND MAINTAINED WITHOUT THE NEED OF THE SUN AND ALL THE RELATED ELEMENTS REFERRED TO FROM  GENESIS 1:2 ONWARDS!
    SO!
    NOW I LEAVE YOU WITH YOUR WHAT YOU CALL
    standards for what you consider acceptable evidence and none of what mine, comes up to those standards.

    to tell me an acceptable and MORE enlightened answer regarding the meaning of

    When the morning stars sang together

    And all the sons of God shouted for joy

    SINCE I AM CONVINCED THAT NONE OF WHAT THAT STATEMENT ACTUALLY STATES IT DID HAPPEN, IF NOT TO COMPLETELY PREVENT US TO BE AWARE OF GOD’S WISDOM, AND ONLY WOULD BE REVEALED TO ALL THOSE WHO ASK, AND KNOCK!
    SIMILARLY WHEN THE WORD “ADORE”, REFERS TO THE ANGELS, ALTHOUGH THEY ADORE GOD FOR SURE,BUT ITS ACTUAL MEANING IS NOT IN THAT PARTICULAR TERM ONLY, BUT RELATED TO THE ACTUAL WORK THE ANGELS DO IN FULL OBEDIENCE, HUMILITY, AND LOVE FOR GOD IN ORDER FOR GOD TO ACCOMPLISH HIS UNFATHOMABLE WORK THROUGHOUT THE UNIVERSES FROM WITHIN THEM TO BE MANIFESTED FOR THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER, WHOM IN RETURN HE WILL TRANSFORM THEM IN COMPLETE UNFATHOMABLE BLISS IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN IN EXISTENCE GOD’S OWN WORK TILL HE AND ONLY HE HIMSELF PRONOUNCES OTHERWISE THROUGH WHICH ON IMMEDIATE OBEDIENCE THEY MAINTAIN THE SAID BLISS!

    OR ELSE:

    THEY WOULD BECOME MORTAL MATTER! LIKE OUR EARTH GENESIS 1:2 ONWARDS!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus

     

    Charles

     

    #781080
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    Jon is written and prose and the word choice and sentence structure is organized for that purpose. It makes is some harder to understand. The bottom line is angels celebrated though some may have celebrated in one way and other in another.

    We are to worship God in Spirit in truth which is more than just adoring him. It is seeking to be like him in true holiness and righteousness and therefore find the way to do so.

    #781144
    carmel
    Participant

    there is no reason for me to believe Lucifer was not among them as they celebrated God’s action.

    Kerwin,

    WITH EVERY RESPECT, YOU ARE SIMPLY PASSIVE, AND ARE NOT READY TO CHEW EVERY WORD,REFLECT AND PRAY GOD TO GIVE YOU LIGHT FOR THE SAKE OF THE TRUTH!

    SO HERE IS  JOB 38:5:7  IN A UNIQUE NEW PERCEPTION!

    NOW REGARDING LUCIFER AND HIS ANGELS, ALTHOUGH HIDDEN, SCRIPTURE FURNISHED US, AMONG OTHER, WITH THOSE PARTICULAR VERSES IN JOB 38:5:7 UNDER THE TITLES:

    “MORNING STARS”,

    DEFINITELY A REFERENCE TO THE FIRST EVER ARCHANGELS, THE HIGHEST IN RANK OF ANGELS,PRACTICALLY GODS,WHOM LUCIFER WAS THE VERY FIRST ONE, AND TO WHOM THOSE PARTICULAR VERSES IS REFERRING SINCE IT CONCERNS THE FIRST EVER EARTH, AND SINCE AS WELL HE IS THE ONLY ONE,WHO IS HIGHLY POMPOUSLY INTRODUCED IN SCRIPTURE, AND ALSO WITH THE SAME TITLE WHICH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST NOW POSSESSES! TO CONFIRM NOT ONLY HIS SUPERIORITY, BUT AS A PROOF THAT HE WAS ALL THE TIME HIDDEN,PATIENTLY, AND MEEKLY WITHIN LUCIFER,NEVER THE LESS TO STILL ACHIEVE HIS KINGDOM! THE FACT THAT LUCIFER WAS TITLED SO!

    AND “SONS OF GOD”

    DEFINITELY INFERIOR ANGELS SINCE THEY ARE SONS, AND ALSO GOD IS RELATED ONLY TO THEM, WHICH IN NO WAY IS A REFERENCE TO GOD THE FATHER, BUT FOR SURE TO LUCIFER WHO CREATED THEM!

    THIS IS SUPPORTED WITH THE WORDS:

    SANG TOGETHER AND SHOUTED FOR JOY

    NOW SINGING IS SUPERIOR TO JUST SHOUTING, AND ALSO IS SHOUTING BUT IN A MORE SUPERIOR ,AND CONTROLLED WAY!

    SO IT IS CLEAR THAT AS SHOUTING IS CONTROLLED AND SUBJECT TO ONE WHO SINGS, THE SONS OF GOD WHO JUST SHOUTED,WERE ALSO CONTROLLED AND SUBJECTS TO THE MORNING STARS, WHO SANG.

    YOU MIGHT SAY THAT MORNING STARS ARE MORE THEN ONE, SO IT CANNOT BE  A REFERENCE TO LUCIFER AS GOD !

    IN A WAY, YES, BUT SINCE LUCIFER WAS A TRIUNE CREATURE, LIKE ALL CREATURES INCLUDING US, HE ONLY FUNCTIONED IN GOD’S HARMONY, WHO IS ALSO TRIUNE, UNITED AS ONE!

    THE FACT THAT ONLY THE MORNING STARS SANG TOGETHER ALTHOUGH FOR SURE THE SONS OF GOD ALSO SHOUTED TOGETHER!

    SO THE NAME LUCIFER IS NOT RELATED TO JUST ONE SPIRIT, ALTHOUGH ONLY ONE SPIRIT WAS THE CAUSE OF THE REBEL, AND THEN CONVINCED THE OTHER TWO TO JOIN HIM!BUT TO THREE!

    THIS IS MANIFESTED THROUGHOUT THE OT.UNDER THREE SEPARATED GODS OF WHICH ONE OF THEM IS A FEMALE!

    BUT MORE IMPORTANT IT IS MANIFESTED IN THE PROCESS OF OUR CREATION WHICH IS LUCIFER’S ORIGINAL SUBSTANCE,AND WHICH AS WELL, IS STILL UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE ORIGINAL SIN OF THE REBEL,IN

    THE SPIRIT OF SATAN, THE DEVIL! NOT INVOLVED IN CREATION AS SUCH, BUT ACQUIRED IT ALL THROUGH ADAM SIN!

    THE SPIRIT OF THE WORLD. THE ENTIRE MATTER! AND

    THE SPIRIT OF MAN. WHO WAS LOCKED IN MATTER AND WHO IS STILL SO BUT AS A SOUL IN FLESH AND BLOOD SUBSTANCE, EARTHLY! ESTABLISHED THROUGH SIN.

    THIS IS ALSO REFLECTED IN THE AMOUNT OF ANGELS HE RATHER OWNED AS HIS GENUINE SPIRIT SUBSTANCE, WHICH HE HIMSELF CREATED, AND WERE SUBJECTS TO HIM DIRECTLY AS THEIR CREATOR!

    A THIRD OF HEAVENLY HOSTS BY WHICH HE CREATED THE FIRST EVER EARTH, AND CONSIDERED IT HIS OWN, AND ONLY RENOUNCE IT IF HE LOSE IT ALL THROUGH A DIRECT CONFRONTATION WITH GOD ON WHAT HE CONSIDERED HIS OWN PLANET, ACCORDING AND IN RESPECT TO HIS OWN NEWLY TRANSFORMED DEAD SPIRIT SUBSTANCE: MATTER!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #781155
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    From what I can see all of your last post was just something you or someone else made up. I see no attempt to make a case it is true.

    #781221
    carmel
    Participant

    From what I can see all of your last post was just something you or someone else made up. I see no attempt to make a case it is true.

    Kerwin,

    THE TROUBLE IS NOT WHAT YOU CAN SEE, BUT WHAT YOU CANNOT SEE

    DEFINITELY SOMETHING SOMEONE ELSE MADE UP, AND THIS CONFIRMS THAT YOU REALLY CANNOT SEE, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT, THAT SOMEONE IS GOD

    DON’T YOU EVER DO THAT ,KEEP YOURSELF PASSIVE WHICH IS ALREADY A LACK OF FAITH!

    MYSELF I IGNORE ALL THE ABOVE REGARDING YOUR STATEMENT AND KEEP ON LOADING YOU WITH MORE THINGS MADE UP BY SOMEONE ELSE:GOD!

    When the morning stars sang together

    And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    AS YOU CAN READ THERE IS THE WORD “ALL” WHICH IS ALLOCATED TO THE SONS OF GOD ONLY!

    THAT EVEN CONFIRMS WHAT I SAID IN THE PREVIOUS POST THAT THE MORNING STARS ARE/IS A REFERENCE ONLY TO LUCIFER AS THE FIRST EVER TRIUNE ARCHANGEL! SINCE NOT ALL THE MORNING STARS, SIMPLY LUCIFER’S THREE ONLY!

    THE FACT THAT ALL THE SONS OF GOD WHICH AS WELL AS I SAID THAT THE TITLE GOD IS ALSO A REFERENCE TO LUCIFER,IT CONFIRMS THAT ALL THE CORRESPONDING ANGELS WERE ALL LUCIFER’S!

    NOW LET’S SEE HOW THESE SONS OF GOD LUCIFER, REALLY ACTED IN THE TRUTH AND BEHAVED IN THAT MANNER!

    THE WORDS ” SING AND SHOUT” ARE RELATED TO EACH OTHER, SINCE IN ORDER FOR A PERSON TO SING, HE HAS TO SHOUT IN A WAY!

    SO WHENEVER A SONG IS HEARD, THE LISTENERS ARE ENJOYING THE ACTUAL NOISE, SHOUTING, AND SO ON! NOT THE SINGER HIMSELF ALTHOUGH THEY WOULD,SINCE IT IS HIS VOICE, BUT AS I SAID IT IS THE ACTUAL SOUND, NOISE AND SO ON! AND ONLY THROUGH IT, THE SINGER WOULD EVENTUALLY BE PRAISED!

    SO THROUGH THE ACTUAL EVIDENT DEED, ACTION IS A SINGER PRAISED! NO?

    SO NOW LET’S CORRESPOND THE EVIDENT DEED, ACTION TO THE CREATION OF EARTH WHICH IS OUR CASE!

    SO THE EVIDENT ACTION IS THE ACTUAL PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF THE EARTH!

    SO ALL THE SONS OF GOD, ALL THE ANGELS CREATED BY THE TRIUNE GOD LUCIFER, WHO IS THE THREE MORNING STARS TOGETHER, ACTUALLY FORMED THE PHYSICAL MANIFESTATION OF THE FIRST EVER EARTH WITHOUT THE USE OF THE SUN AND ALL WHATEVER IS RELATED TO!

    SIMPLY BY GOD’S POWER AND WISDOM, “THE WORD” HIDDEN WITHIN GOD LUCIFER!

    SO NOW YOU HAVE A UNIQUE PERCEPTION OF:

    DRB. JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth ? tell me if thou hast understanding.

    THE ABOVE IS DEFINITELY DIRECTED TO LUCIFER, SINCE HE HIMSELF BELIEVED THAT HE CREATED EARTH!

    5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

    6Upon what are its bases grounded? or who laid the corner stone thereof,

    THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT THE SUN WAS NOT IN EXISTENCE!

    7When the morning stars praised me together,

    and all the sons of God made a joyful melody?

    NOW IT IS CLEAR THAT THE MELODY IS THE EARTH ITSELF

    NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE SHOUTING LIKE MAD CREATURES!

    I WONDER WHAT WOULD YOU SAY, IF MORE OF JOB’S HIDDEN GOD’S WISDOM IS REVEALED TO YOU?

    PLEASE KERWIN NEVER TAKE SCRIPTURES LITERALLY BECAUSE YOU WOULD BE LIVING IN A DREAM!

    BUT FAST, PRAY, REFLECT, ASK, AND KNOCK, THAT YOU WOULD BECOME WISE! AND IF YOU DO ALL THIS FOR THE LOVE OF JESUS, NOT FOR CURIOSITY, YOU WOULD BECOME SO DEFINITELY

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #781767
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    When the morning stars sang together

    And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    AS YOU CAN READ THERE IS THE WORD “ALL” WHICH IS ALLOCATED TO THE SONS OF GOD ONLY!

    If the morning stars are not literally the stars that show in the sky of Israel in the morning then they may also be part of the group that is called sons of God. Sons of God is a title given to those who live by the Spirit or those that are credited with doing so.

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