John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,761 through 1,780 (of 26,007 total)
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  • #110377
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Oct. 15 2008,14:13)
    Hi golli.

    I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Greek has no indefinite article [a]. It does have a definite article [the]. While this definite article appears before the first God in that verse, it does not appear before the last “god” mentioned.
    Since there is no indefinite article in the greek language, where the context demands it, the translator adds the [a], otherwise there would be no “a's” in the New testament.


    david, I think you will find if you haven't already is that gol, Gene, and others don't acknowledge the importance of articles in John 1:1. If they did, then they would know that the Logos is preceded by the definite article as God is in John 1:1 a/b.

    They are arguing John 1:1 in a way as if they weren't there and aren't identifying. Although they may acknowledge the articles in John 1:1 a/b for God as that agrees with their doctrine, but not for Logos.

    #110379
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Wonderful brother T8, we don't debate on the definite article here because we don't see “Logos” as a person we see as an attribute of One and only God by which our One God the Father created this whole universe. We also see this “logos” as an expression of that One God with which He acts in this universe and that expression became a living expression in Jesus the man made in the image of God.

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam

    #110387
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GM,
    John saw and even touched this attribute.
    Is the attribute of God coming again as shown in Rev 19?

    #110422
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    So I see that there are 3 possibilities, as you do, (even if our opinions may differ):

    1) divine (quality
    2) a god (identify)
    3) The God (identity)

    Yes, those are the possibilities. Isn't it interesting that the early Coptic translation (which unlike other languages back then, actually having an indefinite article) translated it as “a god.”

    Of course, what we're told by someone who actually reads books on the coptic language is that “a god” in this language can mean “divine.” But, it cannot mean “the God.”

    The closer we get to the time of Jesus, the more trust I have in those that called themselves “Christian.”
    Since the Coptic translation came before all those councels where they were trying to figure out and define the trinity, I put a whole lot more trust in what those Christians who translated this version believed and understood, then those who came later.

    #110427
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 15 2008,23:07)
    Wonderful brother T8, we don't debate on the definite article here because we don't see “Logos” as a person we see as an attribute of One and only God by which our One God the Father created this whole universe. We also see this “logos” as an expression of that One God with which He acts in this universe and that expression became a living expression in Jesus the man made in the image of God.

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam


    Exactly.

    You ignore the articles referring to Logos but not Theos because of you predefined belief.

    If we are free to add or takeaway from the impact that the definite article has, then you could with the same measure as yourself turn God into the attribute and Logos into the person.

    Would it not be better to be consistent. If God is identified because of the definite article, then why Logos?

    #110438
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    david,
    I am not understanding what you are saying.I could understand that you have another bible translated with indefinte article, 'a',.Is it so?what your bible is called like mormon's bible?
    pulivarthy

    #110450
    david
    Participant

    Pulvarthy, there are several Bible's that at John 1:1 that read “the Word was a god” or “the word was divine.”
    But most Bibles of course read “the Word was God.”
    The problem in translating the greek is that Greek doesn't have an indefinite article [a]. It does have a definite article [the].
    So how do we know how the earliest Christians understood this?
    Since Greek and latin have no indefinite article, and since the coptic language does, we can note how they translated this 1700 years ago into the coptic language. Did they use the indefinite article or not? They did.
    It's the early time of that translation that is so interesting.

    #110458
    pulivarthy
    Participant

    david,
    thank you david .when there was no concept of article in original scriptures, we should not bother much about articles and we should not insert any article also.we should not give much importance to articles brought in by english grammaritans.
    love in christ
    pulivarthy.

    #110460

    Hi WM

    Since our discussion is a little off topic as not3 has pointed out, I moved it to here…

    I Hope as time permits to get to the rest of your response. Gonna be out of town for a week starting Tuesday.

    Keith

    #110462

    Hi David

    Quote (david @ Oct. 15 2008,14:13)
    Since there is no indefinite article in the greek language, where the context demands it, the translator adds the [a], otherwise there would be no “a's” in the New testament.


    Who says John 1:1 demands an indefinite article except your own theology?

    John 1:1 should be interpreted in light of the Gospel of John (John 20:28) and other scriptures that refer to Yahshua with the definite article and other Greek rules of grammar.

    From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours. 2 Peter 1:1 NET

    The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798. Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. In fact, the construction occurs elsewhere in 2 Peter, strongly suggesting that the author’s idiom was the same as the rest of the NT authors’ (cf., e.g., 1:11 [“the Lord and Savior”], 2:20 [“the Lord and Savior”]). The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names. Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, qeos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, swthr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule. Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on the application of Sharp’s rule to 2 Pet 1:1, see ExSyn 272, 276-77, 290. See also Titus 2:13 and Jude 4.

    Source

    This rule is also found in the following scripture…
    as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13

    Paul confirms who it is that will appear in this verse…
    Now Enoch, the seventh in descent beginning with Adam, even prophesied of them, saying, “Look! The Lord is coming with thousands and thousands of his holy ones, Jude 1:14

    WJ

    #110463

    Hi t8

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 15 2008,22:19)
    As most of you are probably aware, I see these as qualitative.
    Adding the definite article is just reckless in my opinion, and adding the indefinite article is perhaps not as bad, but implies that there is a second god, or in Judas's case, another devil creature.


    Yes it is your opinion which defies hundreds of real Greek scholars that disagree with you.

    The problem you have is like David you can not give one example in scriptures of the word “theos” ascribed to any being with “qualitative” or “divine qualities” other than the Father and Yahshua and the Spirit.

    This means it is reckless and borders on blasphemy to imply that the writer inspired by the Holy Spirit is referring to Yahshua, “The Word” that was “with God”, and was in the “form of God”,(Phl. 2:6), and by whom was the Creator of all things, (John 1:3, Col. 1:16, 17, Heb 1:2), to be qualitatively less in nature than God.

    Especially in light of other scriptures with the definite article referring to Yahshua as God! (John 20:28, Heb. 1:8, 2 Peter 1:1, Titus 2:13)  

    Yahshua is referred to as “The Word of God”, (John 1:1, 1 John 1:1, Rev. 19:13) because the very essence of all that God is, “The Word” is. Heb 1:3

    No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,,who is at the Father's side, has made him known. John 1:18 NIV  

    WJ

    #110464

    Hi LU

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 11 2008,05:26)

    In conclusion, the word theos represents more than one type.  What remains important is that we worship the One True God and the One whom He has sent, Jesus Christ.

    3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    LU

       Found here…

    Yes the word “Theos” does represent more than one type. “True Theos” and “false theos”.

    The scripture says there is “Only One True theos”. But you believe in and worship “two true theos” or two “Divine beings”.

    Like the rest, you have not responded to my challenge to support your theory.

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 10 2008,19:05)
    Now lets see if you can find the word “theos” ascribed to any other being with qualities of God or his attributes with the definite article.

    You will find only Yahshua is.

    WJ

     Found here…

    :)

    WJ

    #110465

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 11 2008,00:19)

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 07 2008,22:16)

    Quote
    A particularly glaring error you make is where you say “The fact that he was GOD’s son meant he could not stay dead, GOD raised him up again” While this is partly true, it is, unfortunately, only partly true. God's word also tells us, that is, Jesus Himself tells us in the Scriptures that He will raise Himself from the dead!!!
    John 2:18-21 (ESV) 18 So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?” 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body.”

    Once again it is the failure to realize the GOD in Christ principle that gives rise to such arguments as this.
    The simple fact is that Jesus as a man was representing two people – Himself and his Father.
    Therefore sometimes it was the Father speaking and sometimes it was the son.
    Remember Jesus was the temple of GOD – he was HIS body. He spoke HIS Fathers words and also (obviously) at times
    his own words.
    It was GOD who raised Christ from the dead as his disciples preached after receiving the Holy Spirit.
    Why would the Holy Spirit contradict the words of Jesus?
    There is no contradiction this was GOD speaking when Jesus said 'I will raise it up again'.

    imo


    There is no contradiction because Jesus is God. There WOULD be a contradiction if Jesus was not God. The Holy Spirit would not contradict the words of Jesus, I never said otherwise. But, if Jesus is not God, then Jesus specifically and directly contradicts the other passages of Scripture which say that it was God who raised Him from the dead. Either Jesus is God, or the Scriptures contradict themselves.

    This is not Jesus “speaking for the Father”. The text nowhere indicates any such thing, although in some instances in other passages that may be the case, but there is no evidence in this passage of Jesus speaking for His Father. It simply says, that is, Jesus simply says, “I will raise this temple in 3 days” and John goes on to relate how after Jesus' resurrection, the disciples realized that Jesus was actually referring to His own body.

    So this is no failure to recognize the “God in Christ” principle at all. Jesus did represent the Father to us, He only did the Father's will, He spoke for God…. all these things are true, but they do not change the fact that the Scriptures say on the one hand that God will raise Jesus from the dead, and on the other, that Jesus will raise Himself from the dead. Those who deny Jesus' divinity do not want to accept this plain passage of Scripture because it so clearly evidences His deity.

    So you are right, “it was God who raised Christ fromt he dead as his disciples preached after receiving the Holy Spirit”, and I want to thank you for pointing this fact out and being so clear about it. And more importantly, Jesus was right when He said that He would raise Himself from the dead. QED, Jesus is God.

    blessings,
    Ken


    Hi Ken

    So true!

    But again the “Arians” will explain away Yahshua’s simple words with apologetics.

    Jesus answered and said unto them“, Destroy this temple, and in three days “I will raise it up“. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But “he spake” of the temple of “his body“. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that “he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which “Jesus had said. John 2:19-22

    Look real close unbelievers. The Holy Spirit breathed this truth through John by bringing to his remembrance the words “Of Yahshua”.

    There is no way this scripture can be interpreted as the Father speaking third party.

    Heck, you could say none of Yahshua’s words were his own, and that Yahshua never spoke anything but it was always the Father doing the speaking, which would mean that Yahshua was “God in the flesh”. :D

    WJ

    #110470
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Hi Keith,

    Quote
    But again the “Arians” will explain away Yahshua’s simple words with apologetics.

    ”Jesus answered and said unto them”, Destroy this temple, and in three days “I will raise it up”.


    I'm not sure if I'm “Arian” and I don't know a lot of apologetics, but if Jesus was able to pray (and ask God) to raise his buddy, Lazarus, don't you think he could also say he would raise himself (by the same power available to him)?

    Meaning, he didn't do it himself, as Jesus simple words have already told us that he can do nothing without the Father.

    Just some thoughts,
    Mandy

    #110474

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,04:12)
    Hi Keith,

    Quote
    But again the “Arians” will explain away Yahshua’s simple words with apologetics.

    ”Jesus answered and said unto them”, Destroy this temple, and in three days “I will raise it up”.


    I'm not sure if I'm “Arian” and I don't know a lot of apologetics, but if Jesus was able to pray (and ask God) to raise his buddy, Lazarus, don't you think he could also say he would raise himself (by the same power available to him)?

    Meaning, he didn't do it himself, as Jesus simple words have already told us that he can do nothing without the Father.

    Just some thoughts,
    Mandy


    Hi Mandy

    The words that Yahshua said “He can do nothing of himself”, interpreted that he didnt do anything would contradict many scriptures like John 5:17-19 where Yahshua claims to do the “works” that he sees his Father doing.

    It is common for those who do not believe in Yahshua as being God to just make him a mere puppet on a string and reduce him to a mere man who had no power.

    The words “I can do nothing of my self” means Yahshua simply did nothing apart from the Fathers will or what he sees the Father do.

    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, “but what he seeth the Father do“: for what things soever he doeth, “these also doeth the Son likewise“. John 5:19

    Blessings Keith

    #110475

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,04:12)
    Hi Keith,

    Quote
    But again the “Arians” will explain away Yahshua’s simple words with apologetics.

    ”Jesus answered and said unto them”, Destroy this temple, and in three days “I will raise it up”.


    I'm not sure if I'm “Arian” and I don't know a lot of apologetics, but if Jesus was able to pray (and ask God) to raise his buddy, Lazarus, don't you think he could also say he would raise himself (by the same power available to him)?

    Meaning, he didn't do it himself, as Jesus simple words have already told us that he can do nothing without the Father.

    Just some thoughts,
    Mandy


    Hi Mandy

    Arians!

    Here is some info on the battle that still rages against the Trinitarians.

    Click Here…

    WJ

    #110479
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    Your bluster would carry more weight if you could show trinity taught in scripture.

    Otherwise it is just bluster.

    #110484
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,04:28)
    The words “I can do nothing of my self” means Yahshua simply did nothing apart from the Fathers will or what he sees the Father do.

    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, “but what he seeth the Father do”: for what things soever he doeth, “these also doeth the Son likewise”. John 5:19


    I wonder then…..

    Why did the disciples, coming to Jesus, say, “We couldn't get those demons out!” and Jesus says, “That's because those only come by prayer and fasting.”? Who did Jesus pray to to receive the power to take care of those nasty demons?

    Why did Jesus have to pray to God in order to raise Lazarus?

    Why did Jesus have to ask God a lot of things before they were able to be accomplished if not to receive the power from the Almighty to accomplish them?

    #110490

    Hi Mandy

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,04:28)
    The words “I can do nothing of my self” means Yahshua simply did nothing apart from the Fathers will or what he sees the Father do.

    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, “but what he seeth the Father do”: for what things soever he doeth, “these also doeth the Son likewise”. John 5:19

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,07:40)

    I wonder then…..

    Why did the disciples, coming to Jesus, say, “We couldn't get those demons out!” and Jesus says, “That's because those only come by prayer and fasting.”?  Who did Jesus pray to to receive the power to take care of those nasty demons?

    Is there a scripture that says Jesus prayed to cast demons out?

    He told the disciples “They had to pray and fast”.

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,07:40)

    Why did Jesus have to pray to God in order to raise Lazarus?

    What did Yahshua pray? He said the Father always heard him but for their sakes he prayed. He saw what the Father was doing and he did it.

    Whose voice did Lazarus hear and respond too?

    That all men should honour the Son, “even as they honour the Father“. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth “my word”, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when “the dead shall “hear the voice of the Son of God“: and they that hear shall live“.

    Do you know any mere anointed Prophet or man that could make such claims?

    Of course Yahshua sought to do only the Fathers will. Yahshua already had the Spirit without measure, therfore he was able to perform the works that he saw the Father do.

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,07:40)

    Why did Jesus have to ask God a lot of things before they were able to be accomplished if not to receive the power from the Almighty to accomplish them?

    Can you give me scriptural examples where Yahshua prayed for the power of the Almighty or prayed specifically before he did anything? ???

    He already had it.

    WJ

    #110494
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    Of course he was not the God who was in him doing any of these works.

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