John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,741 through 1,760 (of 26,007 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #110183
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi MF,
    Thanks for you answer. I also see the angels to be a different kind compared to Jesus. I do not see Jesus as pre-existing as one of the angels, a messenger yes, but not one of the angels eventhough He may have been called the “angel of the Lord.”

    LU

    #110184
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 12 2008,16:06)
    Hi MF,
    Thanks for you answer.  I also see the angels to be a different kind compared to Jesus.  I do not see Jesus as pre-existing as one of the angels, a messenger yes, but not one of the angels eventhough He may have been called the “angel of the Lord.”

    LU


    I agree, IMO since Jesus came forth from the Father before the world was.
    The question is tho, since it says in Rev. 3:14 that He was the firstborn of all creation, was He created the same then the angels? They were and are all Spirit beings. So what would be so different then?
    Maybe because He was selected to become a Human being and die for us?
    These are all questions that can be interpret in one way or another. IMO
    What do you think?
    Love Irene

    #110193
    david
    Participant

    Quote (Tiffany @ Oct. 12 2008,07:42)

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 11 2008,23:03)
    A firstborn can lose his birth right and given to another.

    All firstborns were literally speaking the firstborn.

    With the following exception: It could be lost and given/transferred to another.

    So why isn't Jesus literally the firstborn of all creation?
    Why isn't he the first act of the Father?

    What makes a person think that Yeshua wasn't actually the first born of or over all creation, but only in status?


    t8 Good question!! Those that do not believe in the preexisting of Jesus however, seem to not look at it like that.
    Is it because God only calls a few to understand the Truth right now?  Many are called and few are chosen. We can talk to them until you blue in the face and they just don't get. I have found that to be true with our Family too.
    We do know that all truth will be taught in the Millenium and the truth will cover the earth like water covers the sea.
    I believe time is short, all signs are here. For Christ return.
    I for one am looking forward to that very much.
    Peace and Love Irene


    Which scripture are we actually speaking of here?
    Gen 38:14-20?

    Are we told that Ephaim became called “firstborn” or that he was given the birthright?

    I may have not been paying attention, but what is the actual reason for not believing that Jesus being the firstborn is the same general meaning as when it is almost always used in scripture?

    Also, this is the John 1:1 thread. There has to be a better thread to discuss this. There may even be one on Jesus being the firstborn.

    #110202
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Oct. 13 2008,06:36)

    Quote (Tiffany @ Oct. 12 2008,07:42)

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 11 2008,23:03)
    A firstborn can lose his birth right and given to another.

    All firstborns were literally speaking the firstborn.

    With the following exception: It could be lost and given/transferred to another.

    So why isn't Jesus literally the firstborn of all creation?
    Why isn't he the first act of the Father?

    What makes a person think that Yeshua wasn't actually the first born of or over all creation, but only in status?


    t8 Good question!! Those that do not believe in the preexisting of Jesus however, seem to not look at it like that.
    Is it because God only calls a few to understand the Truth right now?  Many are called and few are chosen. We can talk to them until you blue in the face and they just don't get. I have found that to be true with our Family too.
    We do know that all truth will be taught in the Millenium and the truth will cover the earth like water covers the sea.
    I believe time is short, all signs are here. For Christ return.
    I for one am looking forward to that very much.
    Peace and Love Irene


    Which scripture are we actually speaking of here?
    Gen 38:14-20?

    Are we told that Ephaim became called “firstborn” or that he was given the birthright?

    I may have not been paying attention, but what is the actual reason for not believing that Jesus being the firstborn is the same general meaning as when it is almost always used in scripture?  

    Also, this is the John 1:1 thread.  There has to be a better thread to discuss this.  There may even be one on Jesus being the firstborn.


    We are talking about Jesus preexisting.
    Irene

    #110220
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    We are talking about Jesus preexisting.
    Irene


    Yes, I know that is the larger subject. It's just, I haven't seen John 1:1 mentioned for quite some time and that is actually the subject. (There are at least two threads on Jesus “pre-existence.”)

    #110230
    david
    Participant

    The truth is, regarding John 1:1, it can go either way.  It all depends on whether the translators believe God is a trinity or not.  If God wasn't a trinity, and this was just a normal sentence dealing with normal things, it would be a conflict to have Jesus be “with” God and at the same time be God, so a definite article would be needed. (Greek of course doesn't have definite articles, so where the context demands them, they should be put.)
    If on the other hand, God is a trinity, then sure, it could be translated either way.  
    Since the vast almost complete majority of Bible translators have been trinitarians, we do a lot of translations saying Jesus is God in John 1:1.  But even though almost all translation teams are trinitarian and have trinitarian beliefs, here are how some Bible's have translated John 1:1:

    The Emphatic Diaglott (1864; as printed in 1942), Benjamin Wilson’s Interlinear reading:
    “and a god was the Word.”

    The Bible—An American Translation (1935), J. M. Powis Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed.
    “the Word was divine”
    (The translation by Hugh J. Schonfield is the same.)????

    A New Translation of the Bible (1934), James Moffatt:
    “the Logos was divine”

    The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text (1808), published in London:
    “the word was a god.”

    Todays English Version:
    “and he was the same as God.”

    The New English Bible (The Revised English Bible):
    “and what God was, the Word was.”

    La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel (1928):
    “and the Word was a divine being.”

    The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed, by James L. Tomanek. (1958):
    “and the Word was a God.”

    Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany(1975):
    “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.”
    (This one and the following two are translated from German.)
    Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin (1978):
    “and godlike kind was the Logos.”

    Das Evangelium nach Johannes by Jürgen Becker, Würzburg, Germany (1979)
    “and a god was the Logos”
       
    The Four Gospels—A New Translation, by Professor Charles Cutler Torrey:
    “and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.”

    Reflecting an understanding of Jn 1:1 with the New World Translations' :
    “and the Word was a god,” we also have:
       The New Testament in Greek and English(A. Kneeland, 1822.)
       A Literal Translation Of The New Testament(H. Heinfetter, 1863)
       Concise Commentary On The Holy Bible(R. Young, 1885)
       The Coptic Version of the N.T.(G. W. Horner, 1911)
          The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829)

    Other readings, by German translators, follow.
    By Böhmer:
    “It was tightly bound up with God, yes, itself of divine being.”

    By Stage:
    “The Word was itself of divine being.”

    By Menge:
    “And God (= of divine being) the Word was.”

    By Ludwig Thimme: (Das Neue Testament)
    “And God of a sort the Word was.”

    Again, grammatically, this can go either way.  It all depends on what you believe before you approach this verse.  

    Stan Bruce lecturer in New Testament Greek at All Nations Christian College, Hertfordshire, UK, for over 30 years, has written:

       “Although it has to be acknowledged that [theos hn ho logos] could be translated The Word was a god, there is no doubt whatever, according to the rules of Greek grammar, that the phrase can also mean The Word was(the)God.”-Introduction to New Testament Greek Using John's Gospel, 1999 Hodder and Stoughton publishers, “Lesson 3,” p.23.

    #110239
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Hi David

    Interesting to see all those different translations
    Another angle is to look at the 'Word' as translated Logos in the Greek and use its equivalent in Aramaic “Memra”
    It's worth looking it up, as this is the word that many rabbis used when paraphrasing the Hebrew into Aramaic.
    There are a lot of different opinions as to what the Memra completely entails
    and it also is used by trinitarians to support their view.
    However it is much closer to the original Hebraic concept of God I believe than its Greek equivalent which carried with it
    a lot of philosophical and mythological baggage.
    John was after all a Hebrew and not a Greek.

    Anyone have any insights into this Memra?

    #110245
    Tiffany
    Participant

    If you however go on into verse 10 you will see that Jesus created the world, a plan of God would not be the case here. It is an action that Jesus is performing. And that goes well with all other Scriptures that prove the preexisting of Jesus. No other explaination as far as I am concerned, needed. The case is closed for me.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #110249
    david
    Participant

    No one seems to know this or care, but the way the coptic translators translated John 1:1 about 1700 years ago may just be the most important clue to helping us to understand how it should be translated.

    Translating “the Word was a god,” 1700 Years Ago

    “At least by the third century C.E., the first translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures had been made for the Coptic natives of Egypt.” – Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2, page 1153 * Similarly, the Anchor Bible Dictionary states, “All these data point to the 3rd century as the latest terminus a quo [point of origin] for the earliest Coptic translation.” **

    This earliest Coptic (from an Arabic/Greek word for “Egyptian”) translation was in the Sahidic dialect, approximately 1,700 years ago. The scribes who were translating the Gospel of John from Koine Greek into their own Egyptian language encountered an issue that still faces translators today. It is the question of correctly translating John 1:1.

    The Coptic translators rendered John 1:1 in this way (Transliterated):

    1. a. Hn te.houeite ne.f.shoop ngi p.shaje
    1. b. Auw p.shaje ne.f.shoop n.nahrm p.noute
    1. c. Auw ne.u.noute pe p.shaje 1

    Literally, the Coptic says:

    1. a. In the beginning existed the word
    1. b. And the word existed in the presence of the god
    1. c. And a god was the word

    We can see at the outset that the Coptic translators used the Coptic definite article (p) in referring to the One the Word was with or “in the presence of” (nnahrm): p.noute, “the” god, i.e., God. And we can see that in referring to the Word, the Coptic translators employed the Coptic indefinite article (ou; just “u” following the vowel “e”): ne.u.noute, “was a god.”

    Many ancient Coptic manuscripts were collated and translated into English by Coptic scholar George W. Horner. In 1911, Horner published an English translation of John’s gospel. He rendered John 1:1c as: “In the beginning was being the word, and the word was being with God, and [a] God was the word.” 2 He encloses the indefinite article “a” within brackets, which might indicate that he considered that here its translation is not required in English. However, in his own translation of the same Coptic sentence structure in other verses in John, Horner himself does render the indefinite article in English as “a”, without any brackets, which is entirely proper at John 1:1c also.

    Some examples of the Coptic indefinite article with the noun structure that Horner translates into English with an unbracketed “a” in the Gospel of John follow below. They are also verses in which most English versions of John translate the Greek pre-verbal anarthrous predicate nouns with an “a. ” :

    John 4:19: “a prophet” (NRSV; Horner)
    John 6:70: “a devil” (NRSV; Horner)
    John 8:44: “a murderer” (NRSV; Horner)
    John 8:44: “a liar ” (NRSV; Horner)
    John 8:48: “a Samaritan” (NRSV; Horner)
    John 9:17: “a prophet” (NRSV; Horner)
    John 9:24: “a sinner” (NRSV; Horner)
    John 9:25: ” a sinner” (NRSV; Horner)
    John 10:1: ” a thief” (NRSV; Horner
    John 10:13: “a hired hand ” (NRSV; Horner)
    John 12:6: ” a thief” (NRSV; Horner)
    John 18:35: “a Jew” (NRSV; Horner)
    John 18:37a: “a king” (NRSV; Horner)
    John 18:37b: “a king.” (NRSV; Horner) 3

    Literally, Sahidic Coptic *ou.noute* means “a god.” 4 When a Coptic noun is a common noun and refers to an entity (“man,” “god”) the Coptic indefinite article is customarily translated by the English indefinite article “a”. The Coptic indefinite article ou marks the noun as a non-specific individual or a specimen of a class. 5 When the noun refers to an abstract idea (“truth,” “happiness”) or an unspecified quantity of a substance (“water,” “some water”; “gold,” “some gold”), or is used adjectively (“wise,” “divine”), the Coptic indefinite article need not be translated by the English indefinite article “a.” 6

    Thus, while it can be said that the Coptic indefinite article does not correspond exactly in usage to the English indefinite article, it does correspond closely to it. 7 Because at John 1:1c, the Coptic indefinite article is bound to a common noun and refers to an entity, the Word, the translation “a god” is proper.

    How competent were the ancient Coptic Egyptian translators to convey the sense of the Greek text of John? Egypt was conquered by Alexander the Great in 332 BCE and the country was subsequently Hellenized. Greek had been a legacy of Egypt for some 500 years by the time those translators began their work, and it was still a living language. According to Coptic grammarian Bentley Layton, the Coptic translation is “a very early indirect attestation of the Greek text and a direct indication of an Egyptian (perhaps Alexandrian) understanding of what it meant.” 8 Likely made well before Nicea (325 CE), the Coptic text tells us how early exegetes interpreted John 1:1, apart from the influence of later dogma and church tradition.

    Although the third century may be the latest date for the Sahidic Coptic translation, can a date for its beginning be more clearly ascertained? Christianity may have come early to Egypt. The Bible book Acts of the Apostles lists Egyptian Jews and proselytes as being present at Pentecost, when 3,000 became Christian believers. (Acts 2:5-11) The eloquent Christian speaker Apollos was an Alexandrian and his travels may have taken him back to Egypt. (Acts 18:24-28; Titus 3:13) Coptic translator George Horner notes: “Clement of Alexandria, born about 150 [CE], speaks of the Christians spreading all over the land….The internal character of the Sahidic [version] supplies confirmation of a date earlier than the third century.” Horner favors a date closer to 188 CE as the inception of the Sahidic Coptic version 9

    The value of the Coptic text lies not only in its indication of how early scribes understood the Greek of John 1:1, but also in its value for determining the correct text of that gospel. New Testament scholar Bruce Metzger wrote: “[The] Alexandrian text [is] the best text and most faithful in preserving the original….The Sahidic and Bohairic versions frequently contain typically Alexandrian readings.” 10 Additionally, one can note readings in the Coptic text that are found in the earliest existing manuscripts of John, the p66 (Papyrus Bodmer II, middle second century CE) and p75 (Papyrus Bodmer XIV, late second century CE). 11

    There is also the matter of precision in rendering John 1:1c. The Koine Greek language has only the definite article, with indefiniteness being indicated by the lack of the article (called the “anarthrous” construction). Of the other early translations from the Greek, Latin has no articles, definite or indefinite, and Syriac has only the definite determinator in its grammatical structure. The Sahidic Coptic language, however – like English – has both the definite article and the indefinite article as part of its syntactical system.

    This means that when the Coptic translators wrote ou noute, “a god,” at John 1:1c, referring to the entity that is the Word, they were being specific, not ambiguous. They could have used the definite article and written p.noute at this verse if they had meant “God,” just as they did at John 1:1b: auw p.shaje ne.f.shoop n.nahrm p.noute, “and the Word was with [literally, “in the presence of] God.”

    Therefore, the Sahidic Coptic version, the earliest translation of the Greek originals into a language that contained the indefinite article, used that indefinite article at John 1:1c: “the Word was a god.”
    Is “the Word was a god” the only English translation of this verse that is possible within the parameters of the Coptic indefinite article? It should be stressed that this is t
    he literal translation. However, this semantic domain may allow, in context, English translations such as “the Word was divine” or a divine being, or “the Word was godlike.” But a translation such as the traditional “the Word was God” would require the Coptic definite article, thus falling outside of the non-specific semantic domain signaled by the Coptic indefinite article. 12

    It is sometimes charged, incorrectly, that the translation of John 1:1c as “the Word was a god” is an incorrect, sectarian translation found primarily in the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. Yet, in rendering John 1:1c from Greek into their own native language, the Coptic scribes came to the same understanding of that Greek text some 1,700 years ago.

    Translating John 1:1c literally to say “the Word was a god” is, therefore, not any innovation. Rather, it appears to be an ancient way of understanding the meaning of this text, before the ascension and formal installation of philosophical Trinitarianism.

    http://nwtandcoptic.blogspot.com/2008….go.html

    It's remarkable how the gospel of thomas (in coptic) when discovered became so popular, but John in coptic (discovered decades earlier) is virtually unknown.

    #110250
    david
    Participant

    Here is an article in a Watchtower:
    Was the Word “God” or “a god”?

    That question has to be considered when Bible translators handle the first verse of the Gospel of John. In the New World Translation, the verse is rendered: “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” (John 1:1) Some other translations render the last part of the verse to convey the thought that the Word was “divine,” or something similar. (A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt; The New English Bible) Many translations, however, render the last part of John 1:1: “And the Word was God.” – The Holy Bible – New International Version; The Jerusalem Bible.

    Greek grammar and the context strongly indicate that the New World Translation rendering is correct and that “the Word” should not be identified as the “God” referred to earlier in the verse. Nevertheless, the fact that the Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. It is for this reason that a Bible translation in a language that was spoken in the earliest centuries of our Common Era is very interesting.

    The language is the Sahidic dialect of Coptic. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language. Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says:”Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses.”

    The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, as indicated above, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O. Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: “The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English.”

    Hence, the Coptic translation supplies interesting evidence as to how John 1:1 would have been understood back then. What do we find? The Sahidi Coptic translation uses an indefinite article with the word “god” in the final part of John 1:1. Thus, when rendered into modern English, the translation reads: “And the Word was a god.” Evidently, those ancient translators realized that John’s words recorded at John 1:1 did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as Almighty God. The Word was a god, not Almighty God.
    (Half way down page,
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/165941/1.ashx)

    WHAT FOLLOWS THAT ARTICLE ON THE WEBSITE I TOOK THIS FROM IS SOMEONE WHO SEEM STO KNOW LANGUAGE AND TO HAVE EVEN STUDIED THE COPTIC LANGUAGES.

    SHE ARGUES AGAINST THE JW'S TRANSLATION, OR AT LEAST, SHE EXPLAINS THAT THERE IS ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE–“DIVINE.”

    Note what she says:

    “Had the Society examined the recent Coptic grammar by Bentley Layton (Coptic in 20 Lessons: Introduction to Sahidic Coptic [Leuven: Peeters, 2007]), or even Layton's older Coptic grammar, they would have known that noute “god” is one of the nouns that could be used qualitatively to mean “divine”, which would have an indefinite article in predicate position.”

    Yes, perhaps the coptic which literally says “a god” could be translated into English to mean “divine.”  
    She goes on:

    “The Watchtower article is thus wrong about Coptic grammar and does not acknowledge that the Coptic rendering in John 1:1 is actually ambiguous between an indefinite “The Word was a god” and a qualitative “The Word was divine”.”

    Ok, so it could either be “a god” or “divine” according to the coptic translation of a couple hundred years after Christ.  Got it.

    Going on, she says:
    “Both options would require the indefinite article in Coptic and thus the use of the indefinite article in the Sahidic text does not by itself favor an English rendering with an indefinite article versus one with a qualitative expression.  The value of the Coptic version is rather in confirming the linguistic findings of Harner and subsequent writers that the theos in John 1:1 is not to be understood as definite.”

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/165941/1.ashx

    We definitely have someone here who argues against the Watchtower and what it said, but notice what she acknowledges–it has to be translated either “a god” OR “divine” but not “God.”  This apparently is what we learn from the coptic translation, a language that is far less ambiguous than Greek or Latin.

    So, we're getting closer to understanding how the earliest Christians (those before the councels of trinity belief) understood this verse.–john 1:1

    #110251
    david
    Participant

    Reading further on, she states:

    The Coptic translation is valid evidence against the interpretation of the anarthrous theos as definite, i.e. “The Word was God”. The Watchtower article came to a similar conclusion but (grossly) oversimplified the issue by portraying the use of the indefinite article in Coptic as itself meaning that the Word was “a god”.

    #110253
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    If Jesus is a lesser god or the mighty god, or any other way people want to try and make a difference without a distinction, then he is still a false god since there is only 1 true god.

    Hi Eppy, I read this on page 115.   It's false for several reasons.  The Father being called the only “true” God does not mean Jesus is a false god any more than me saying you're the only true man on this website makes Nick a false man. (We would understand it to mean that you display the qualities of a man–what it means to be a man–to a much further degree)
    God means “strong one/powerful one.”  While many have degrees of power, and some much much more than others, (angels more than us for example) God “Almighty” has no limit to his power, hence, compared to all others, he is the only true mighty one, the only true God.

    The false gods in the Bible were things that people believed had power, but as the Bible says: eyes they have, but they cannot see, ears they have but they cannot hear.
    In Acts 19, we see people considered the “goddess Artimis” to be “great.”  But as Paul said, they are “not gods” at all–they are false gods.  (verse 26)

    Since we now understand what the word 'god' means, it shouldn't be hard to understand why Jesus (who isn't a false god) and why angles (who aren't false gods) are called gods (mighty/strong/powerful ones)
    But this doesn't mean they're false gods, for they definitely have power.  Yet, compared to Jehovah, the almighty, it is very little power.

    #110273
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Peace greetings ALL,

    Yahchanan [John] 1:1 does not say “… and the word was Jesus.”

    To Believe “Jesus IS God” Is To Be Deceived!

    Yahshua Did Not Pre-exist His Birth!

    #110279
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (david @ Oct. 13 2008,19:23)
    Here is an article in a Watchtower:
    Was the Word “God” or “a god”?


    I just want to remind people that in the Greek there is neither a definite or indefinite article in John 1:1c for 'theos'.

    i.e., there is no 'THE' or 'A'.

    That in itself doesn't rule out the possibility that it cannot be translated with either, but it isn't there, so there needs to be an explanation as to why either should be added.

    #110280
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 14 2008,08:45)
    Yahchanan [John] 1:1 does not say “… and the word was Jesus.”


    It says that the Word became flesh, and that Jesus is the one identified as the Word that became flesh. This is the point to John's gospel. i.e., the identification of Jesus.

    #110284
    david
    Participant

    Are we going to ignore the extremely relevant coptic translation then, as people have done for years?

    Greek, Latin, those languages back then–no indefinite article.

    The sahidic dialect of the Coptic language had a definite article, and when translating John 1:1, those early Christians put the indefinite article [“a”] in that verse. This shows how those early Christians (before all the councils) believed it should be translated.
    This is highly significant.
    And while it may not mean that it should be translated “a god” it does suggest it shouldn't be translated as just “God.” (It seems the coptic language may differ a little from English in that it could mean “a god” or just as easily it could mean “godlike” or “divine.”)

    #110309
    gollamudi
    Participant

    Hi brother David there is no necessity to add “a” before God. The word of God always is the same it never changes. God sends His word to fulfill His will. It is not another person apart from that One God. God is always remain One and Only as per Jn 5:44. There can not be another God besides that One God who created this universe apart from God the Father.

    Peace to you
    Adam

    #110312
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 14 2008,23:44)
    Hi brother David there is no necessity to add “a” before God. The word of God always is the same it never changes. God sends His word to fulfill His will. It is not another person apart from that One God. God is always remain One and Only as per Jn 5:44. There can not be another God besides that One God who created this universe apart from God the Father.

    Peace to you
    Adam


    Adam Read on and the Word became flesh and walked among us. You are forgetting God Almighty will not ever be visible to us as humans. Only He that came from heaven has seen Him, and that is the Word God that left that realm and emptied Himself and became a man and was called Jesus. Both have other names, God is a tiltle. There are many God's, even Satan is God of this world.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #110346
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    Hi brother David there is no necessity to add “a” before God. The word of God always is the same it never changes. God sends His word to fulfill His will. It is not another person apart from that One God. God is always remain One and Only as per Jn 5:44. There can not be another God besides that One God who created this universe apart from God the Father.

    Hi golli.

    I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Greek has no indefinite article [a]. It does have a definite article [the]. While this definite article appears before the first God in that verse, it does not appear before the last “god” mentioned.
    Since there is no indefinite article in the greek language, where the context demands it, the translator adds the [a], otherwise there would be no “a's” in the New testament.

    Since we have the mind of early Christians who spoke the early sahidic version of the coptic language, a language that unlike Greek, or latin, does have and use an indefinite article, it's very interesting to note how early Christians translated the Greek into the coptic language.

    THEY TRANSLATED IT AS “A GOD.”

    Anyway, there's an actual thread about this now, which I imagine will be largely ignored by trinitarians as they want to hear nothing about this.

    #110376
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Good questions david.

    The fact that there is no indefinite article poses difficulties when translating into a language that demands one.

    So I see that there are 3 possibilities, as you do, (even if our opinions may differ):

    1) divine (quality
    2) a god (identify)
    3) The God (identity)

    If it is read as 'The God', then I think that this actually rules out the option that the Father as God, because it would mean that the Word was exclusively God. Can someone confirm if this is correct with a source? I can't remember the sources I originally found as that was quite a while ago now.

    So the Word was 'THE God' would be like saying in structure that George Bush is the president, thereby excluding other people from being the president.

    A guide to this could well be when Jesus called Judas a 'devil'. (NOTE: I added in 'a' to make the sentence readable in English.)

    If Jesus said that he was 'the Devil', then he was identifying him as Satan the Devil. If he was saying that he was 'a devil', then he may well have meant that he was a demon or one of the Devils angels or non-human servants as devils seems to imply. But the lack of article here also could be referring to just 'devil', which has a qualitative application, meaning that he had the nature or character of the Devil, that he was diabolical. This allows for Judas to still be a man but to be like the Devil in character.

    As most of you are probably aware, I see these as qualitative.
    Adding the definite article is just reckless in my opinion, and adding the indefinite article is perhaps not as bad, but implies that there is a second god, or in Judas's case, another devil creature.

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