John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 1,781 through 1,800 (of 26,007 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #110518
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,08:16)
    What did Yahshua pray? He said the Father always heard him but for their sakes he prayed. He saw what the Father was doing and he did it.


    But he still prayed….and asked….The Father…..to raise Lazarus.

    Why didn't Jesus just stand on his own power and do the job and get it done?

    Remember that the crownd PRAISED GOD who gave that authority to men (Jesus). It is written.

    #110521

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,10:16)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,08:16)
    What did Yahshua pray? He said the Father always heard him but for their sakes he prayed. He saw what the Father was doing and he did it.


    But he still prayed….and asked….The Father…..to raise Lazarus.

    Why didn't Jesus just stand on his own power and do the job and get it done?

    Remember that the crownd PRAISED GOD who gave that authority to men (Jesus).  It is written.


    Hi Mandy

    Yes, and remember many times the people gave glory to Yahshua and bowed down and “worshipped” him for the works he done, and not once can you find where Yahshua forbid them to do so.

    But how does his prayer and his raising Lazarus by his word negate what he said here?…

    That all men should honour the Son, “even as they honour the Father“. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth “my word”, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when “the dead shall “hear the voice of the Son of God“: and they that hear shall live“.

    In fact his words agree with their response to him and his actions.

    WJ

    #110522
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,10:16)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,08:16)
    What did Yahshua pray? He said the Father always heard him but for their sakes he prayed. He saw what the Father was doing and he did it.


    But he still prayed….and asked….The Father…..to raise Lazarus.

    Why didn't Jesus just stand on his own power and do the job and get it done?

    Remember that the crownd PRAISED GOD who gave that authority to men (Jesus).  It is written.


    The one thing I think that Jesus cannot do and that is to forgive our Sins. For that we need to go through Jesus to our Almighty Father and ask Him for forgiveness of our sins.
    And it is sin that made the body die. Adams sin. So did Lazarus die. And in order for that all be forgiven, all have to go to our Almighty Father. So Jesus prayed for their sakes.
    Am I missing something?
    Peace and Love Irene

    #110523
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    Of course all those who brought the words of God to men should have been honoured.
    Instead the tenant farmers abused and killed all of them, even the Word, the Son of God.

    #110524
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,10:35)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,10:16)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,08:16)
    What did Yahshua pray? He said the Father always heard him but for their sakes he prayed. He saw what the Father was doing and he did it.


    But he still prayed….and asked….The Father…..to raise Lazarus.

    Why didn't Jesus just stand on his own power and do the job and get it done?

    Remember that the crownd PRAISED GOD who gave that authority to men (Jesus).  It is written.


    Hi Mandy

    Yes, and remember many times the people gave glory to Yahshua and bowed down and “worshipped” him for the works he done, and not once can you find where Yahshua forbid them to do so.

    But how does his prayer and his raising Lazarus by his word negate what he said here?…

    That all men should honour the Son, “even as they honour the Father“. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth “my word”, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when “the dead shall “hear the voice of the Son of God“: and they that hear shall live“.

    In fact his words agree with their response to him and his actions.

    WJ


    Here is worship in a biblical context.

    shachah is the word used for “worship” in the OT, which means:

  • worship
  • bow
  • bow down
  • obeisance
  • reverence
  • fall down
  • stoop
  • crouch

    “shachah” is also translated as worshiped in the following verse:

    Genesis 24:26
    Then the man bowed down and worshiped the LORD,

    It is also used in 1 Kings 1:23 and translated as “bowed”.
    And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.

    Most verses that talk about worship are talking about worship to God. Other verses talk about (but do not encourage) worship toward idols or other gods. But there is also a legitimate use for worshipping Jesus as the son of God, or worshipping David as the King of Israel, or worship toward those who overcame etc.

    Revelation 3:9
    Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    So when you see the word worship with regards to God, Jesus, King David, overcomers etc, think of the word honour and praise. Jesus, King David, and those who are overcomers can be honoured and praised for what and who they are. But we do not honour/praise/worship any of them as God, except of course God.

    The worship of Jesus as the son of God and the lamb of God doesn't and never has supported the view that Jesus is God.

    Such a conclusion is only grasping desperately at straws in order to build a straw man.

#110526

Quote (Tiffany @ Oct. 17 2008,10:37)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,10:16)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,08:16)
What did Yahshua pray? He said the Father always heard him but for their sakes he prayed. He saw what the Father was doing and he did it.


But he still prayed….and asked….The Father…..to raise Lazarus.

Why didn't Jesus just stand on his own power and do the job and get it done?

Remember that the crownd PRAISED GOD who gave that authority to men (Jesus).  It is written.


The one thing I think that Jesus cannot do and that is to forgive our Sins. For that we need to go through Jesus to our Almighty Father and ask Him for forgiveness of our sins.
And it is sin that made the body die. Adams sin. So did Lazarus die. And in order for that all be forgiven, all have to go to our Almighty Father. So Jesus prayed for their sakes.
Am I missing something?
Peace and Love Irene


Hi tiffany

But that ye may know that “the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins“, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. Matt 9:6

:)

WJ

#110527
david
Participant

Quote
Yes, and remember many times the people gave glory to Yahshua and bowed down and “worshipped” him for the works he done, and not once can you find where Yahshua forbid them to do so.

WJ, you know better than this.

#110530

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 17 2008,10:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,10:35)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2008,10:16)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2008,08:16)
What did Yahshua pray? He said the Father always heard him but for their sakes he prayed. He saw what the Father was doing and he did it.


But he still prayed….and asked….The Father…..to raise Lazarus.

Why didn't Jesus just stand on his own power and do the job and get it done?

Remember that the crownd PRAISED GOD who gave that authority to men (Jesus).  It is written.


Hi Mandy

Yes, and remember many times the people gave glory to Yahshua and bowed down and “worshipped” him for the works he done, and not once can you find where Yahshua forbid them to do so.

But how does his prayer and his raising Lazarus by his word negate what he said here?…

That all men should honour the Son, “even as they honour the Father“. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth “my word”, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when “the dead shall “hear the voice of the Son of God“: and they that hear shall live“.

In fact his words agree with their response to him and his actions.

WJ


Here is worship in a biblical context.

shachah is the word used for “worship” in the OT, which means:

  • worship
  • bow
  • bow down
  • obeisance
  • reverence
  • fall down
  • stoop
  • crouch

    “shachah” is also translated as worshiped in the following verse:

    Genesis 24:26
    Then the man bowed down and worshiped the LORD,

    It is also used in 1 Kings 1:23 and translated as “bowed”.
    And they told the king, saying, Behold Nathan the prophet. And when he was come in before the king, he bowed himself before the king with his face to the ground.

    Most verses that talk about worship are talking about worship to God. Other verses talk about (but do not encourage) worship toward idols or other gods. But there is also a legitimate use for worshipping Jesus as the son of God, or worshipping David as the King of Israel, or worship toward those who overcame etc.

    Revelation 3:9
    Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    So when you see the word worship with regards to God, Jesus, King David, overcomers etc, think of the word honour and praise. Jesus, King David, and those who are overcomers can be honoured and praised for what and who they are. But we do not honour/praise/worship any of them as God, except of course God.

    The worship of Jesus as the son of God and the lamb of God doesn't and never has supported the view that Jesus is God.

    Such a conclusion is only grasping desperately at straws in order to build a straw man.


  • Hi t8

    And yet you cannot find one example of a child of God in the NT ascribing “proskeneo” worship to any other but the Father and Yeshua?

    Who is being worshipped here t8?

    And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. ….And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, **Lord God Almighty**, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks “to him that sat on the throne”, who liveth for ever and ever, “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne”, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev 4:2, 3 and 4:8-11

    Compare “…for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure* they are and were created”. with…

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: “all things were created *by him, and for him*: Col 1:16

    So again the contradictions pile up for you like a straw man.

    WJ

    #110531

    Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2008,11:10)

    Quote
    Yes, and remember many times the people gave glory to Yahshua and bowed down and “worshipped” him for the works he done, and not once can you find where Yahshua forbid them to do so.

    WJ, you know better than this.


    David

    No, you know he never did forbid worship to him nor point them to the Father when he was being worshipped.

    Not Once.

    WJ

    #110535
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    Who is being worshipped here t8?

    And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. ….And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, **Lord God Almighty**, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks “to him that sat on the throne”, who liveth for ever and ever, “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne”, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev 4:2, 3 and 4:8-11

    Unquestionably, it is Jehovah God the Almighty who is being worshipped here.

    Let's look at the clues:

    “ALMIGHTY”:

    Shaddai (Heb. “Almighty”) and Pantokrator (Gk. “Almighty”) are repeatedly used with reference to Jehovah, the Father. (Ex 6:3; 2 Cor 6:18; Rev 19:6, Rev 4:8, etc) Neither of these expressions are ever applied to “Jesus” or “Christ.” Yet, the word “almighty” is applied to Jehovah 42 other times, from the very first occurrence of that word to the very last occurrence:
    GENESIS 17:1
    “When Abram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. . . ..”
    REVELATION 21:22 (King James Version)
    “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty AND Lamb ARE the temple of it.” (It’s clear in this verse that the Lamb, [Jesus] is distinguished and separate from the “Almighty” here. Both of them “are” spoken of. It does not say that the Almighty and Jesus “is,” but uses the plural: “are.”)
    Since “Jehovah” is specifically and without question called “God” a thousand times in scripture, and many more without the actual use of his name, the “burden of proof” clearly rests on anyone who wants to prove that the words “God Almighty” refers to anyone but Jehovah.

    “LORD GOD”:

    The words “Lord God” never occur with reference to “Jesus,” although it does occur about 80 times with reference to Jesus’ Father, Jehovah. In all instances where the phrase occurs in the Greek scriptures, it is in reference to Jehovah, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. (Luke 1:32; 1 Peter 3:10-15; Revelation 11:17,19; 15:3; 16:7; 18:8; 21:11; 22:6)
    The phrase “the Lord God” was used as a Greek substitute for the expression “Jehovah God”, that appears many times in the Old Testament. The expression “Lord God” occurs in many Bibles roughly 80 times. It never occurs with reference to the name “Jesus.” In fact, in the original languages, the expression found about 80 times is “Jehovah God.” The substitution of the word “Lord” and the removal of God’s name has confused many as to who this one is.
    Likewise, with the phrases “the Lord our God” and “the Lord your God”: These phrases are always used in reference to Yahweh, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. — Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Deuteronomy 6:13; 10:20); Matthew 22:37 (Deuteronomy 6:5); Mark 12:29 (Deuteronomy 6:4); etc.
    Since the words “Lord God” are definitely used with reference to Jehovah many times and nowhere specifically clearly used with reference to “Jesus,” the burden of proof rests on those who wish to prove that this scripture refers to anyone other than Jehovah.

    “THE ONE WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO IS TO COME”

    As well, this verse is speaking of “the One who is and who was and who is to come.” In Revelation Revelation 1:5, we see greetings are given from the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come,” “and from Jesus Christ.” (NIV)
    In verse 5 it’s obvious that the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come” is not Jesus Christ, because greetings are given from him “AND from Jesus Christ.

    “HOLY HOLY HOLY”

    Also, compare Revelation 4:8 where it says: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” (NIV) We notice the phrase “holy, holy, holy” occurs only one other time in the Bible at Isaiah 6:3, and there it is referring to “Jehovah.” (Compare Rev 11:17)

    Quote
    Compare “…for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure* they are and were created”. with…

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: “all things were created *by him, and for him*”: Col 1:16

    REVELATION 4:11
    ““…..because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.””

    COLOSSIANS 1:16
    “because by means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth. . . . All things have been created through him and for him.”

    Yes, let's compare them.
    Referring to Jesus, in Colossians, we see all things were created “through him” and “for him.”
    In Revelation, we are told that because of this ones will all things were created. Jesus often spoke of his Father's will being done and not his own.
    While Jehovah is the Creator, he created everything “through him” through Jesus and “for him.”

    #110536
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    David

    No, you know he never did forbid worship to him nor point them to the Father when he was being worshipped.

    Not Once.

    WJ


    He never directed worship to himself, but rather to the Father, as you know. But I was referring to you using the word “worship” as though you saying that word proves proskyneo means worship in those instances. The unwary may just not do any research and believe you.

    PROVERBS 14:15
    “Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.”

    #110537
    david
    Participant

    WJ, I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the Coptic translation?

    #110538

    Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2008,11:32)

    Quote
    David

    No, you know he never did forbid worship to him nor point them to the Father when he was being worshipped.

    Not Once.

    WJ


    He never directed worship to himself, but rather to the Father, as you know.  But I was referring to you using the word “worship” as though you saying that word proves proskyneo means worship in those instances.  The unwary may just not do any research and believe you.  

    PROVERBS 14:15
    “Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.”


    David

    Since the Father is “invisible” who is being worshipped here?…

    And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. ….And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, **Lord God Almighty**, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks “to him that sat on the throne”, who liveth for ever and ever, “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne”, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev 4:2, 3 and 4:8-11

    Compare “…for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure* they are and were created”. with…

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: “all things were created *by him, and for him*: Col 1:16

    WJ

    #110539

    Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2008,11:32)

    Quote
    David

    No, you know he never did forbid worship to him nor point them to the Father when he was being worshipped.

    Not Once.

    WJ


    He never directed worship to himself, but rather to the Father, as you know.  But I was referring to you using the word “worship” as though you saying that word proves proskyneo means worship in those instances.  The unwary may just not do any research and believe you.  

    PROVERBS 14:15
    “Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.”


    David

    So why did Yahshua use the same word “proskuneo” for worship to the Father that was being practiced on him?

    This is the only scripture that Yahshua gives us about “True Worship”.

    God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship (proskuneo) him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24

    So until you can give valid scriptural reasons for applying the word “proskuneo” to Yahshua in a different way than to the Father then I believe “proskuneo” worship is exclusive to the Father and Yahshua.

    WJ

    #110540
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    David

    Since the Father is “invisible” who is being worshipped here?…

    Perhaps you could explain your reasoning a little better. Yes, the Father is invisible to human fleshly eyes. I can't see him, can you. Nor can I see Jesus. I'm not a spirit. They are. As are the angels.

    1 JOHN 3:2
    “Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is.”

    Those in heaven, who have been made spirit creatures, will obviously see him, “just as he is.”

    I'm still not sure what your point is.

    Countless times, all those titles are applied to Jehovah God the Almighty and not Jesus. The burden of proof rests very heavily on your shoulders to prove that this case is different from the hundreds of others.

    #110544
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    This is the only scripture that Yahshua gives us about “True Worship”.

    God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship (proskuneo) him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24

    “Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Mat 4:10)

    Here we have Satan trying to get an act of worship or reverence or whatever you want to call it, out of Jesus. Note who Jesus directs attention to as deserving of this? To “him alone” must you render sacred service.” And where “it is written” as he says, he is quoting from the Hebrew scriptures saying: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship.”

    #110545
    david
    Participant

    WJ, although I enjoy and have enjoyed these many conversations on the word Proskyneo and its MANY meanings, I would rather focus on an area of interest right now–John 1:1 and the coptic version.

    #110546

    Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2008,12:08)

    Quote
    David

    Since the Father is “invisible” who is being worshipped here?…

    Perhaps you could explain your reasoning a little better.  Yes, the Father is invisible to human fleshly eyes.  I can't see him, can you.  Nor can I see Jesus.  I'm not a spirit.  They are.  As are the angels.

    1 JOHN 3:2
    “Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is.”

    Those in heaven, who have been made spirit creatures, will obviously see him, “just as he is.”

    I'm still not sure what your point is.

    Countless times, all those titles are applied to Jehovah God the Almighty and not Jesus.  The burden of proof rests very heavily on your shoulders to prove that this case is different from the hundreds of others.


    David

    The point is John saw him who sat on the throne.

    Yet John writes 2 times “No one has seen God”.

    No one has ever seen God. The only one, himself God, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known. John 1:18 NET

    No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

    And Jesus said…

    (Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God – “he has seen the Father”.) John 6:46 NET

    So Either it is Yahshua who is the “Image of the Invisible God” or you have a contradiction.

    WJ

    #110547

    Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2008,12:14)

    Quote
    This is the only scripture that Yahshua gives us about “True Worship”.

    God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship (proskuneo) him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24

    “Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Mat 4:10)

    Here we have Satan trying to get an act of worship or reverence or whatever you want to call it, out of Jesus.  Note who Jesus directs attention to as deserving of this?  To “him alone” must you render sacred service.”  And where “it is written” as he says, he is quoting from the Hebrew scriptures saying: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship.”


    David

    That only solidifies my point.

    The Devil tried to get Yahshua to falsly “proskuneo” him and yet Yahshua uses the same “proskuneo” for true worship to the Father.

    WJ

    #110549
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WJ,
    It is not allowed for us to resolve what seems to be contradictions by adding in extraneous human ideas.

    Let scripture speak and every man be silent.

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