John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 17,601 through 17,620 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #389731
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2014,12:08)
    Jammin,

    I am aware that trinitarians will often translate and interpret the same words applied to Jesus differently than when applied to Jesus.  You have to already believe Jesus is God or be gullible to accept such explanations.

    You have failed to prove Jesus is all powerful.


    Case in point:

    Quote (jammin @ June 22 2014,21:15)
    it does not say that in eph 3.19 boy

    let me post it

    Ephesians 3:19

    1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

    19 And to know the [a]love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled with all [c]fullness of God.

    footnote
    Ephesians 3:19 So that we have abundantly in us, whatsoever things are required to make us perfect with God.

    eph 3.19 did not say that WE WILL HAVE THE NATURE OF GOD (omnipresence,omnipotent,omniscient etc). this verse speaks about the whatsoever things are required to MAKE US PERFECT WITH GOD!

    some version says

    Ephesians 3:19

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. [b]Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.


    Had these same words been said about JESUS, and not about disciples – the Trinitarians would have been all over it as a “Jesus is God proof text”! :)

    But since it is said about US, and not about JESUS, they seem to be able to understand that “having the fullness of God” does NOT mean that person IS God.

    If the same words were said about Jesus, they would naturally change their minds, and say those words were proof that Jesus IS God. You wouldn't ever see that NLT version if the words were said about JESUS……. would you? :D

    #389754
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2014,10:47)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2014,12:08)
    Jammin,

    I am aware that trinitarians will often translate and interpret the same words applied to Jesus differently than when applied to Jesus.  You have to already believe Jesus is God or be gullible to accept such explanations.

    You have failed to prove Jesus is all powerful.


    Case in point:

    Quote (jammin @ June 22 2014,21:15)
    it does not say that in eph 3.19 boy

    let me post it

    Ephesians 3:19

    1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

    19 And to know the [a]love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled with all [c]fullness of God.

    footnote
    Ephesians 3:19 So that we have abundantly in us, whatsoever things are required to make us perfect with God.

    eph 3.19 did not say that WE WILL HAVE THE NATURE OF GOD (omnipresence,omnipotent,omniscient etc). this verse speaks about the whatsoever things are required to MAKE US PERFECT WITH GOD!

    some version says

    Ephesians 3:19

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. [b]Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.


    Had these same words been said about JESUS, and not about disciples – the Trinitarians would have been all over it as a “Jesus is God proof text”!  :)

    But since it is said about US, and not about JESUS, they seem to be able to understand that “having the fullness of God” does NOT mean that person IS God.

    If the same words were said about Jesus, they would naturally change their minds, and say those words were proof that Jesus IS God.  You wouldn't ever see that NLT version if the words were said about JESUS……. would you?   :D


    Mike and Terra.

    What is that first cteature's name?

    wakeup.

    #389793
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,June 20 2014,08:22][/quote]

    Quote
    I have already quoted it to you before.  Why would you believe what is written any more this time than before.              

    Kerwin,

    YOU SHOULD NOT JUST QUOTE!

    BUT PRESENT SCRIPTURES, DEFINE IT WITH RESPECT TO THE GREEK/JEWISH MESSAGE  AS MUCH AS YOU COULD BE AWARE OF, TO GIVE PROOF THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS THE TRUTH ACCORDINGLY,

    WITH THE HOPE THAT I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PRODUCE THE SAME GENERAL WORK TO CONTRADICT YOU IN ORDER TO ALSO PROVE THAT I AM SAYING THE TRUTH!

    IN THAT MANNER IF BOTH OF US AS TRUE CHRISTIANS ARE GENUINELY FREE FROM ANY EVIL CARNAL INFLUENCES, AND FOR THE LOVE OF JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY SOURCE OF OUR BELIEF,THE ONLY LIFE, AND THE ONLY WAY,  IN ORDER TO REACH THE ONLY GOD AND FATHER, SINCE ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM, AND ALL FOR HIM! WE DEFINITELY REACH THAT AIM!

    BUT, IT SEEMS THAT YOU ARE NOT SURE OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING, SOMETHING WHICH YOU YOURSELF MADE ME TO DETERMINE SO, DUE TO THE FACT THAT, FOR A REASON THAT ONLY YOU KNOW,YOU SIMPLY  WERE  NOT READY TO FACE IT!

    I ONLY BELIEVE WHAT IT IS CLEARLY PROVEN THAT IT IS THE TRUTH, OR AS CLOSEST TO THE TRUTH!

    WHICH WILL BE POSTED AFTER THIS ONE

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #389801
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ June 23 2014,21:23)
    Mike and Terra.

    What is that first cteature's name?


    Why, Wakeup? Is it important for some reason?

    If so, then you tell me the name of the first being God ever created. You don't believe it was Jesus, so tell me who it was. What was his name? And why is knowing that name important to our salvation?

    #389810
    kerwin
    Participant

    carmel,

    Quote
    YOU SHOULD NOT JUST QUOTE!

    BUT PRESENT SCRIPTURES, DEFINE IT WITH RESPECT TO THE GREEK/JEWISH MESSAGE AS MUCH AS YOU COULD BE AWARE OF, TO GIVE PROOF THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS THE TRUTH ACCORDINGLY,

    The Jews are follow strict monotheism and not trinitarianism in any of its forms. If you go by the teaching of the Jews then Jesus Christ is a human being who has been given authority over all things in heaven and on earth but is still subject to God.

    There is no real evidence that the Jews of the First Century were any different in this belief than those today. When Jesus says I am going to my Father and my God it goes with the strict monotheism viewpoint as when Scripture calls believers his brothers.

    I can quote the relevant passage but frankly you should know them by now.

    #389813
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2014,05:47)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 23 2014,12:08)
    Jammin,

    I am aware that trinitarians will often translate and interpret the same words applied to Jesus differently than when applied to Jesus.  You have to already believe Jesus is God or be gullible to accept such explanations.

    You have failed to prove Jesus is all powerful.


    Case in point:

    Quote (jammin @ June 22 2014,21:15)
    it does not say that in eph 3.19 boy

    let me post it

    Ephesians 3:19

    1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

    19 And to know the [a]love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled with all [c]fullness of God.

    footnote
    Ephesians 3:19 So that we have abundantly in us, whatsoever things are required to make us perfect with God.

    eph 3.19 did not say that WE WILL HAVE THE NATURE OF GOD (omnipresence,omnipotent,omniscient etc). this verse speaks about the whatsoever things are required to MAKE US PERFECT WITH GOD!

    some version says

    Ephesians 3:19
    New Living Translation (NLT)

    19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. [b]Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.


    Had these same words been said about JESUS, and not about disciples – the Trinitarians would have been all over it as a “Jesus is God proof text”!  :)

    But since it is said about US, and not about JESUS, they seem to be able to understand that “having the fullness of God” does NOT mean that person IS God.

    If the same words were said about Jesus, they would naturally change their minds, and say those words were proof that Jesus IS God.  You wouldn't ever see that NLT version if the words were said about JESUS……. would you?   :D


    Mike,

    They do.

    Colossians 1:19
    New International Version (NIV)

    19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

    Colossians 1:19
    New Living Translation (NLT)

    19 For God in all his fullness
    was pleased to live in Christ,

    Colossians 1:19
    1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

    19 For it pleased the Father, that in him should [a]all fullness dwell.
    Footnotes:

    Colossians 1:19 Most plentiful abundance of all things pertaining to God.

    #389820
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 24 2014,20:25)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2014,05:47)

    Had these same words been said about JESUS, and not about disciples – the Trinitarians would have been all over it as a “Jesus is God proof text”!  :)


    Mike,

    They do.


    Kerwin,

    You would have made a much better point by posting the Trinitarian commentators' NOTES about that scripture.  :)

    For example, Gill says Colossians 1:19 means:

    ………all the perfections of God are in Christ, as eternity, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, immutability, independence, and necessary existence, and every other, or he would not be equal with God; nor could all the fulness of the Godhead be said to dwell in him………..

    But about Ephesians 3:19, Gill says:

    That ye might be filled with all the fulness of God;

    this is to be understood, not of a full comprehension of the divine Being, nor of a communication of his divine perfections, nor of having in them the fulness of grace, which it has pleased God should dwell in Christ…………

    but that fulness of good things, which they may receive from God in this life; as to be filled with a sense of the love and grace of God; with satisfying views of interest in the righteousness of Christ; with the Spirit, and the gifts and graces thereof………….

    If the words are said about Christ, they mean he IS God Almighty.  But if those same words are said about us, it means we are to “be filled with a sense of the love and grace OF God”.  :D

    Those Trinitarian scholars really have a sense of humor, huh?  :)

    #389835
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,June 25 2014,12:19][/quote]

    Quote
    If so, then you tell me the name of the first being God ever created.  You don't believe it was Jesus, so tell me who it was.  What was his name?  And why is knowing that name important to our salvation?

    Mike,

    LUCIFER!

    AND  UNLESS YOU REALIZE WHAT LUCIFER BECAME, YOU WILL NEVER DISCOVER THE TRUTH ABOUT YOURSELF AND YOU REMAIN IN LUCIFER, SATANA'S STATE REGARDING YOUR FLESH AND BLOOD BODY:

    PROUD!

    Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thy iniquities, and by the iniquity of thy traffic: therefore

    I will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, (THE CENTRE OF PLANET EARTH, ALL MATTER) to devour thee, and I will make thee as ashes upon the earth ( ERUPTIONS OF VOLCANOES) in the sight of all that see thee.

    DID YOU EVER SEE LAVA, THAT IS OUR SUBSTANCE

    MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO YOU AND ME STILL SPIRITS, LOCKED IN THAT LAVA, MATTER CAME OUT IN ORDER TO START OUR PROCESS TO BECOME HUMANS!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #389836
    carmel
    Participant

    Kerwin,

    HEREUNDER IS THE SCRIPTURE YOU POSTED

    Quote
    John 20:17
    Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

    17 Jesus saith to her, `Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.'

    NOW:

    I am not bothered in the word ascend as such, since you are aware that it could be used figuratively as I AM SURE OF  in this case!

    But IT IS the preposition “to”  “PROS” I AM INTERESTED IN, which determined the proper definition of the phrase!

    Hereunder is the Greek text  analysis

    4314 [e] pros      

    Strong's Concordance

    pros: advantageous for, at (denotes local proximity), toward (denotes motion toward a place)
    Original Word: πρός
    Part of Speech: Preposition
    Transliteration: pros
    Phonetic Spelling: (pros)
    Short Definition: to, towards, with
    Definition: to, towards, with.

    HELPS Word-studies

    4314 prós (a preposition) – properly, motion towards to “interface with” (literally, moving toward a goal or destination).

    4314 /prós (“towards, with”) indicates “extension toward a goal, with implied interaction or reciprocity (L & N, 1, 84.18), with “presumed contact and reaction” (L & N, 1, 84.23). 4314 (prós) naturally suggests the cycle of initiation and response (L-N, 1,90.25, 90.33).

    [4314 (prós) can mean “in view of,” or “in light of, but never “against,” except where the context indicates an active exchange (interface) done in opposition.

    As you can read the text DOES NOT INCLUDE THE PREPOSITION “UNTO”

    AND WHEN YOU READ THE GREEK TEXT ANALYSIS OF THAT PARAGRAPH ONLY PROS IS USED IN THE THREE CASES WHICH IS USED!

    ARE YOU IN A POSITION TO DETERMINE WHICH IS THE PROPER VERSION IN RELATION TO WHAT I PIN POINTED OUT?

    NOT YOU OPINION PLEASE SCRIPTURES

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #389837
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,June 25 2014,13:19][/quote]

    Quote
    The Jews are follow strict monotheism and not trinitarianism in any of its forms.  If you go by the teaching of the Jews then Jesus Christ is a human being who has been given authority over all things in heaven and on earth but is still subject to God.

    Kerwin,

    RIGHT NOW JESUS IS GOD HIMSELF AS A FLESH AND SPIRIT BEING

    THE WORD

    THE WORD MADE FLESH

    AND

    THE WORD GLORIFIED AS:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    THE FACT THAT HE IS THE SOLE RULER OF ALL GOD'S CREATION, AND POSSESSES ETERNALLY THROUGH INHERITANCE ,ALL GOD'S ATTRIBUTES!

    AND GOD ALMIGHTY IS RIGHT NOW MAKING JESUS' ENEMIES HIS FOOTSTOOL!

    SO HE IS NOT SUBJECT TO GOD ALMIGHTY, BUT GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF IN FULL GLORY OF BOTH FLESH AND SPIRIT

    GOD ALMIGHTY IS STILL SPIRIT AS HE ALWAYS WAS, AND REMAIN SO!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #389861
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    Quote
    I am not bothered in the word ascend as such, since you are aware that it could be used figuratively as I AM SURE OF in this case!

    I can see it used figuratively but do not see it used figuratively in the spiritual sense as Jesus was already in heaven with his God and our God figuratively.

    I can see it used literally and see no reason to use it otherwise as Jesus would ascend in 40 days.

    #389862
    Wakeup
    Participant

    God did not sacrificed Himself.
    He gave his Son to the world;not Himself.

    Jesus is not God:but the Word of God;and he was made flesh. Our God was never killed by jews.
    He holds the universe together in harmony.
    There would be chaos if he died for three days.

    If not; then He did not truly die.
    It would be a fake death.

    Jesus was the Word of God made flesh.
    He is not flesh anymore;and is in heaven,
    next to His God,and Father.

    wakeup.

    #389863
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    Quote
    As you can read the text DOES NOT INCLUDE THE PREPOSITION “UNTO”

    Unto is fairly useless word that replace to in all but the case when to is an accompaniment of the infinitive or as a placement of until.

    The lexicon one of its synonyms which is to.

    #389865
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    Quote
    RIGHT NOW JESUS IS GOD HIMSELF AS A FLESH AND SPIRIT BEING

    I have no idea what you personal teaching of the trinity is but I do not Jesus was tempted even as we are and God cannot be tempted by sin. So if you believe Jesus was God during his mortal life then you do not believe he was tempted by evil as we are. That opposes what is written. If you do not then what do you believe and what passages do you use to support your belief?

    #389866
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2014,08:53)

    Quote (kerwin @ June 24 2014,20:25)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2014,05:47)

    Had these same words been said about JESUS, and not about disciples – the Trinitarians would have been all over it as a “Jesus is God proof text”!  :)


    Mike,

    They do.


    Kerwin,

    You would have made a much better point by posting the Trinitarian commentators' NOTES about that scripture.  :)

    For example, Gill says Colossians 1:19 means:

    ………all the perfections of God are in Christ, as eternity, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, immutability, independence, and necessary existence, and every other, or he would not be equal with God; nor could all the fulness of the Godhead be said to dwell in him………..

    But about Ephesians 3:19, Gill says:

    That ye might be filled with all the fulness of God;

    this is to be understood, not of a full comprehension of the divine Being, nor of a communication of his divine perfections, nor of having in them the fulness of grace, which it has pleased God should dwell in Christ…………

    but that fulness of good things, which they may receive from God in this life; as to be filled with a sense of the love and grace of God; with satisfying views of interest in the righteousness of Christ; with the Spirit, and the gifts and graces thereof………….

    If the words are said about Christ, they mean he IS God Almighty.  But if those same words are said about us, it means we are to “be filled with a sense of the love and grace OF God”.  :D

    Those Trinitarian scholars really have a sense of humor, huh?  :)


    Mike,

    I was avoiding the research though I was sure that was the case. They do seem to have a straight man sense of humor. The also do the same with homage.

    #389877
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,June 22 2014,14:54][/quote]

    Quote
    In cases like that, we must decide if it should be translated as, was existing in the form of God”, or, “was existing in the form of a god”.

    Now that I've just noticed this, I'm leaning towards “a god”, since it make a better contrast to “form of a servant”.

    Mike,

    I APPRECIATE  YOUR INTEREST REGARDING THIS MATTER, AND I WONDERED WHY ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU ACTED AS SUCH!

    IT'S CLEAR  TO ME THAT YOU ARE CAUGHT ON THE WRONG FOOT!

    SCRIPTURE  IS CLEAR THAT JESUS WAS THE SON OF GOD,

    NOT THE SON OF A GOD!

    NO MIKE KEEP YOUR TWISTED ARGUMENTS AND YOUR MISGUIDING DEFINITION FOR YOURSELF!

    I AM CONVINCED THAT JESUS WAS ALWAYS  A DIVINE BEING, EVEN IN HIS TOMB!

    Hebrews 1:But to the Son:YOUR THRONE O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    9Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity:THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    10And: YOU IN THE BEGINNING, O LORD DID FOUND THE EARTH: AND THE WORKS OF YOU HANDS ARE THE HEAVENS

    11They shall perish, BUT YOU SHALL CONTINUE:EVEN IN THE TOMB!

    and they shall all grow old as a garment.

    12And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:BUT YOU ARE THE SELFSAME,AND YOUR YEARS SHALL NOT FAIL

    DIVINE!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #389878
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,June 25 2014,13:53][/quote]

    Quote
    If the words are said about Christ, they mean he IS God Almighty.  But if those same words are said about us, it means we are to “be filled with a sense of the love and grace OF God”.

    Mike,

    READ THIS:

    THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD!

    THE HEAD OF MEN IS CHRIST!

    CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #389881
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,June 26 2014,03:12][/quote]

    Quote
    I can see it used figuratively but do not see it used figuratively in the spiritual sense as Jesus was already in heaven with his God and our God figuratively.

    Kerwin,

    PLEASE CAN YOU PRODUCE SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT WHAT YOU CAN SEE ?

    OTHERWISE HOW CAN I SEE WHAT YOU CAN SEE?

    FOR INSTANCE:

    REGARDING THAT PARTICULAR RESURRECTION SCRIPTURE THERE ARE ALSO, MATTHEW'S IN PARTICULAR WHICH GAVE US MORE UNDERSTANDING RELATED TO THE SPIRITUAL SENSE, SOMETHING WHICH YOU CANNOT SEE

    Quote
    as Jesus was already in heaven with his God and our God figuratively.

    NO KERWIN JESUS IN THAT PARTICULAR STATE WAS NOT YET IN HEAVEN AND NEVER WAS BEFORE!

    JESUS DURING THOSE FORTY DAYS WAS IN A UNIQUE STATE THAT NEVER HAD BEEN BEFORE!

    THE FACT THAT BOTH GOD AND JESUS WERE GLORIFIED IN THE SAME ONE GLORY!

    GOD ALMIGHTY ENRICHED HIMSELF THROUGH JESUS' PROCESS, THEREFORE GOD ALMIGHTY WAS NEVER IN THAT STATE AND HE WOULD BE IN THAT STATE ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD WHEN HE WOULD BE ALL IN ALL !

    ALL SPIRITUAL CREATURES UNITED IN ALL CARNAL CREATURES

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #389888
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2014,10:30)

    Quote (jammin @ June 22 2014,21:26)
    BIBLE VERSIONS AND COMMENTARIES AGREE TO ME.


    Of course they agree with you……. since those commentaries were written by Trinitarians!  :D

    But consider:

    Revelation 21:22
    I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

    In the above verse, is Jesus “the Lamb”?  Or is he “the Lord God Almighty”?

    So it doesn't matter that a Trinitarian commentator WANTS Jesus to be “the Lord God Almighty” in 1:8 – because other scriptures make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that Jesus is NOT “Almighty”.

    Hebrews 10
    12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.

    First of all, “God” is the one Jesus sits at the right hand OF, jammin.  And it is not “God” who sits at the right hand of “God”………… unless you believe there are TWO Gods.

    Secondly, nobody who is “Almighty” sits and waits for SOMEONE ELSE to place his enemies at his feet, so he can then destroy those enemies.

    So once again, it doesn't matter one little bit how many Trinitarians want to take verses in the Bible that are about Jehovah, and apply those verses to Jesus……. because there are enough ABUNDANTLY CLEAR scriptures in the Bible to let even a 3 year old kid know that Jesus is NOT the God he is the Son, Servant, Lamb, Prophet, Priest, and Messiah OF.

    The very thought that there are “so-called intelligent” people out there who believe that the Son, Servant, Lamb, Prophet, Priest, and Messiah  OF God could actually BE the God he is all those things OF – really baffles me.  

    But these people do exist, nonetheless.  The question is:  Why would anyone in their right mind believe the nonsensical things these confused people have to say?


    i do not believe there are two Gods. i believe there are three persons but one in nature, God.

    you and your father are two persons but ONE NATURE, HUMAN.

    that is the basic explanation for your question and do not make things complicated.

    also, are we talking about the rev 21.22,heb 10.12 or rev 1.8?

    rev 1.8 talks about christ and if you see the verse 7, Christ is the one who is coming and not the father. read the context and do not just make fantasies hahaha

    #389890
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 24 2014,05:04)

    Quote (jammin @ June 23 2014,22:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2014,16:24)

    Quote (jammin @ June 23 2014,09:28)
    t

    i understand if you CANT answer my questions. just go to your backyard and plant some potatoes. maybe in that way you will be able to help your country


    Jammy

    you have been answered 100th times by me,Mike,kerwin and others ,

    you are so ridiculously blind that after so many time we have answered you still ask for the same question(s)

    i really think you would do better if you start planting potatoes,in someone else   yard ,and argue with them why you plant in their yard and not yours,


    can you post here again the answer of kerwin and mike and others about my questions?

    ill repeat my questions

    is the president all powerful? yes or no?
    are you all powerful? yes or no?

    if both answers are no, do you accept that you and the president are EQUAL in essence?


    Jammin,

    We have already covered that and gone beyond it in our conversation as you have now made clear that the nature you believe Jesus is essentially equal to God in is God's nature of being all powerful.  The flaw in your reason is that Jesus is not all powerful.  Mike also has made the same point and you have failed to address it.  

    In my case Jesus was appointed as Lord of everything in heaven and on earth.  God appointed him and Jesus cannot appoint another to his position therefore God is superior in power.


    so therefore you agree that the president is not all powerful and you are not all powerful as well. correct?
    you both have the same nature/essence, correct?

    therefore, if Christ is equal with God in essence, he is all powerful just like his father. they are both God in nature. the bible said Who, being in very nature[a] God,

    no human has the nature of God and EQUAL WITH GOD in essence. make your own bible boy. hahaha

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