John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #110149
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 10 2008,19:34)

    Quote
    listen carefully to what I am saying…..and equally carefully to what I am not saying… I am NOT saying that Jesus is not the Son of God…. I am saying that He is NOT the Son of God 1) in the same we any other human is called a son or daughter of the most high and 2) that He is not the Son in the same way a human has a Son…..


    Sounds good in theory – but how can I have any concept of a son that is not like any son or offspring in the natural except that the dissimilarities be explicitly outlined to me. I don’t see statements in the scripture to that end, indicating that he is the son of God in some ways but in others not a son like us.
    Perhaps it would be helpful to examine these dissimilarities as you say
    (1) Dissimilar in the sense that he is not the son of God in the same way we (the sons of God) are called sons.
    By this I assume you are meaning that because Jesus is the uniquely begotten son he is different.
    I would say that this denotes a difference in the way he came to be manifest in flesh – i.e. he (unlike us) had a pre-existence in the form of Spirit, and a former knowledge of his Father which we lacked until the rebirth. Also he came into flesh without the need of sexual reproduction which was introduced after the fall when man took on the nature of beasts. Adam was formed by God apart from sex as was Eve. Christ was of the same pattern as are the reborn – who are not born of the will of the flesh or of man but born of God by the Spirit of God.
    Also this uniqueness extends to his status as that of a firstborn and as such the principle heir to his Father. (A difference of role – not an intrinsic difference)
    In any other sense I see no dissimilarity – he is a son not of Flesh but manifest in flesh, as are the sons of God, born in this world but not of it, born of the same Spirit of God.
    Jesus in fact removes most of the obstacles that we as humans would tend to place before ourselves as a way of distancing ourselves from him as a son.
    He unashamedly calls us brethren, not servants.
    He teaches us that we can have an intimate relationship with the Father as he has.
    We obtain a degree of equality with him that is likened to that of Eve – the bride of Adam, who was equal with him before the transgression. She was taken from his side, and was given to him. So is Christ the head of the Church. But this is a difference of role, not an intrinsic difference.
    (2) that He is not the Son in the same way a human has a Son
    Obviously we understand that any true son of God is not born by the regular human way of reproduction but by the Spirit of God. How are we different to him in this respect? Remember we are speaking here of sons of God, we are not born in flesh as sons of God but with a contrary spirit and nature to God. This is why we must be born again of the Spirit.
    Only difference here between us and Jesus as a son was that he did not require a rebirth to be son of God, but was (as Adam) a son of God from birth. (imo)
    So GOD does not require a process of sexual reproduction in order to produce a son of God. Instead of begetting sons by sex he begets us by His Spirit. That stands to reason considering God is Spirit and not flesh and bone.
    It was GOD who set the pattern for life natural as well summarized in Gen 1:11 and whether by sex or botanic reproduction we see this pattern applies. Why did God set such unchanging patterns into His physical creation?
    Because the natural shadows and types to the Spiritual. Thus we are able to draw upon natural analogies as scripture does to illustrate the way of God. (imo)
    It was God who chose this use of language: Father and Son, and nowhere does he show us that this relationship is exceptional to that of a natural Father and Son, except it is obvious that there are differences in the way God achieves the bringing forth of sons, and human beings or other animals do.
    Also there are differences of role and therefore position and status.
    Blessings


    Malcom, it takes hard work and study, thats all there is to it.

    Let me give you and example, lets look at the word “Firstborn”. Now we think that we all have a good handle on that word, pretty simple right? JW's and others who deny the deity and eternalty of Christ, those who say, whatever their other beliefs, that Jesus is a created being, they have all looked at this term (firstborn) and thought that:

    “HA! here is proof that Jesus is not eternal!! That Jesus is a created being!! How can Jesus be called the “Firstborn” unless He came into being at a point in time, just like any other and every other “firstborn”?”

    Well the answer to that question comes with some study. First we look at Gen 41:51-52 esv Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh. For, he said, God has made me forget all my hardship and all my father's house. (52) The name of the second he called Ephraim, For God has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction.”

    Pretty straightforward right? Manasseh is Joseph's firstborn. But wait….

    Jer 31:9 esv With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

    Whats this….!!!?? A direct contradiction? Of course not. Why? Because our understanding of the term “firstborn”needs to be informed by the rich background of the Hebraic mind. As it turns out, when the term is applied to Jesus, it turns out that its not really a term denoting any temporal beginning at all, for Jesus is not a “firstborn: in the way we are used to thinking about the term at all, instead the term denotes a position of honor. Just as Manasseh was the firstborn, and as such received his father's inheritance and place of honor, but then lost it due to disobedience, making Ephraim “firstborn”. Of course their chronological birth order did not change, but their place of honor did. Now when it comes the term “Son”, Jesus, not having a human father, immediately is seen to not be a “Son” in the same way a human son is. So if it doesn't mean “progeny: or “physical descendant what does it mean? Well, it turns out the the phrase “Son of God” is actually a Messianic title and much more should be understood when we see the phrase then merely some vague reference supposedly meaning that Jesus is not eternal merely because He is a Son. Vine's writes “* The Son of God

    In this title the word “Son” is used sometimes (a) of relationship, sometimes (b) of the expression of character. “Thus, e.g., when the disciples so addressed Him, Mat_14:33; Mat_16:16; Joh_1:49, when the centurion so spoke of Him, Mat_27:54, they probably meant that (b) He was a manifestation of God in human form. But in such passages as Luk_1:32, Luk_1:35; Act_13:33, which refer to the humanity of the Lord Jesus, the word is used in sense (a).

    “The Lord Jesus Himself used the full title on occasion, Joh_5:25; Joh_9:35 [some mss. have 'the Son of Man'; see RV marg.]; Joh_11:4, and on the more frequent occasions on which He spoke of Himself as 'the Son,' the words are to be understood as an abbreviation of 'the Son of God,' not of 'the Son of Man'; this latter He always expressed in full; see Luk_10:22; Joh_5:19, etc.

    “John uses both the longer and shorter forms of the title in his Gospel, see Joh_3:16-18; Joh_20:31, e.g., and in his E
    pistles; cp. Rev_2:18. So does the writer of Hebrews, Heb_1:2; Heb_4:14; Heb_6:6, etc. An eternal relation subsisting between the Son and the Father in the Godhead is to be understood. That is to say, the Son of God, in His eternal relationship with the Father, is not so entitled because He at any time began to derive His being from the Father (in which case He could not be co-eternal with the Father), but because He is and ever has been the expression of what the Father is; cp. Joh_14:9, 'he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father.' The words of Heb_1:3, 'Who being the effulgence of His (God's) glory, and the very image of His (God's) substance' are a definition of what is meant by 'Son of God.' Thus absolute Godhead, not Godhead in a secondary or derived sense, is intended in the title.” * [* From Notes on Galatians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 99, 100.]

    Other titles of Christ as the “Son of God” are: “His Son,” 1Th_1:10 (in Act_13:13, Act_13:26, RV, pais is rendered “servant”); “His own Son,” Rom_8:32; “My beloved Son,” Mat_3:17; “His Only Begotten Son,” Joh_3:16; “the Son of His love,” Col_1:13.

    “The Son is the eternal object of the Father's love, Joh_17:24, and the sole Revealer of the Father's character, Joh_1:14; Heb_1:3. The words, 'Father' and 'Son,' are never in the NT so used as to suggest that the Father existed before the Son; the Prologue to the Gospel according to John distinctly asserts that the Word existed 'in the beginning,' and that this Word is the Son, Who 'became flesh and dwelt among us.'” * [* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine pp. 46,47.]

    In addressing the Father in His prayer in John 17 He says, “Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the World.” Accordingly in the timeless past the Father and the “Son” existed in that relationship, a relationship of love, as well as of absolute Deity. In this passage the “Son” gives evidence that there was no more powerful plea in the Father's estimation than that coeternal love existing between the Father and Himself.

    The declaration “Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee,” Psa_2:7, quoted in Act_13:33; Heb_1:5; Heb_5:5, refers to the birth of Christ, not to His resurrection. In Act_13:33 the verb “raise up” is used of the raising up of a person to occupy a special position in the nation, as of David in Act_13:22 (so of Christ as a Prophet in Act_3:22; Act_7:37). The word “again” in the AV in Act_13:33 represents nothing in the original. The RV rightly omits it. In Act_13:34 the statement as to the resurrection of Christ receives the greater stress in this respect through the emphatic contrast to that in Act_13:33 as to His being raised up in the nation, a stress imparted by the added words “from the dead.” Accordingly Act_13:33 speaks of His incarnation, Act_13:34 of His resurrection.

    In Heb_1:5, that the declaration refers to the Birth is confirmed by the contrast in verse 6. Here the word “again” is rightly placed in the RV, “when He again bringeth in the Firstborn into the world.” This points on to His Second Advent, which is set in contrast to His first Advent, when God brought His Firstborn into the world the first time (see FIRSTBORN). * [* The Western text of Luk_3:22 reads “Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee,” instead of “Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well pleased.” There is probably some connection between this and those early heresies which taught that our Lord's Deity began at His baptism.”

    Thayer says “Term (Son of God) used preeminently of Jesus Christ, as enjoying the supreme love of God, united to him in affectionate intimacy, privy to his saving councils, obedient to the Father’s will in all his acts”

    The important thing, or one of the important things to take from all this is to simply not take it for granted that one knows what a certain phrase or word means without first doing at least a little research.

    blessings,
    Ken

    #110150
    david
    Participant

    Quote
    These men who presume to be gods, those who deal unjustly with the people, and show partiality to the wicked, who fail to give justice to the weak and fatherless, nevertheless, they will fall, they will die, just like any other human prince, so they are not really gods at all.

    Hi Epy. So, you're definition of “god” would be someone who cannot die? I'm not talking about what the definition or who the “god” of the Bible is, as I think some on here (not you) get confused about. I'm talking about what that word “god” actually means. I don't think it means one who cannot die. I think it is a word that like many other words can be used relatively. And relatively speaking, the Israelite judges had power. Of course, they weren't powerful to Jehovah and that is the point of that verse. But “I said, You are gods,” to some degree.

    Quote
    A second reason I believe this is the case is because of these passages:

    Deu 4:35 esv To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him.


    Obviously, there are others besides him. Yet, many scriptures say things like: ““I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.” (Is 45:18)
    I believe what this means is this:
    1 SAMUEL 2:2
    “There is no one holy like Jehovah, for there is no one but you; And there is no rock like our God.”

    It's an interesting verse, above, because I see you also put this one down:
    Isa 44:8 esv Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.

    One scripture says: “there is no rock.” And one says “there is no rock like our God.” One says: “Is there a God besides me.” And another says: ““Who among the gods is like you, O Jehovah?” (Ex 15:11)

    You know these Isaiah scriptures you show, are showing and comparing actual false idol gods with Jehovah God. That's what the whole chapters are about. So in context, (comparing Jehovah to these things of wood) it's obvious that Jehovah is the true God, and these things are nothing.

    Quote
    Here we are told in clear unambiguous terms that there is no other god besides Jehovah

    I think if we read those chapters, and take the context into account and then understand what the word “god” means, we can easily understand why Jehovah can say that. To him, there are no other gods, none, not any. To Jehovah, the Almighty, there are no “mighty ones” or “powerful ones” or “strong ones” or however you want to understand what that word actually means. And, especially when we consider who Jehovah is being compared to, it's easy to understand his statements.

    Quote
    So in light of these clear didactic passages, when the bible refers to other “gods”, the term is used either of false gods, eg demons, powers and principalities, or is used sarcastically, as a literary device.

    So the angels are “false gods” then?

    #110151
    david
    Participant

    If I said: “Epy, you're the only true man on this forum,” how would that be understood?

    Would people think that all other men on this forum were false? Or could it be understood to mean that you display the qualities of a man to a higher degree than any other man on this forum?–because that is how we would of course understand it.

    When we are told that Jehovah is the only true God, it's obvious that he is, for he is 43 times called “Almighty” in scripture. “God” means a strong/powerful/mighty one. And since there are none mightier than He, yes, he is the only true God. There is no one that can be called his God.

    Jesus of course, is extremely powerful as well, hence the word fits. But, he too has a God, and about 5 times in scripture, we're told that the Father is 'his God.' (We are never told the reverse of course, for that would be silly.)

    #110152
    epistemaniac
    Participant

    Quote (Tiffany @ Oct. 11 2008,00:59)
    Since you believe that the Holy Spirit is a person, is He then Jesus's Father? It is by God's Holy Spirit that Maria became with Child?


    I only know what the Scripture says:

    Mat 1:18 esv Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

    Luk 1:35 esv And the angel answered her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy the Son of God.

    It is no more difficult to imagine the Holy Spirit to be the cause of Jesus' conception then it is for the Father, they are both spirit and incorporeal; and both the Holy Spirit and the Father are God. Here again, just like we have the Scriptures telling us the Father raised Jesus from the dead, and yet we have Jesus claiming that it is He who would raise himself from the dead, and yet the biblical writers seem to be conscience of no contradiction, so too we have the Scriptures on the one hand saying that it was the Holy Spirit who “overshadowed” Mary resulting in the conception of Jesus, yet we also have many instances of Jehovah/Yahweh being Jesus' Father eg resulting in Jesus' conception. Here again we can see how difficult a seemingly simple term like “Father” can be. So which is it, the Holy Spirit or Yahweh? The answer is “both” since the Holy Spirit is God.

    Hope this helps.

    blessings,
    Ken

    #110153
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi E,
    So if God is a trinity was the son his own father?
    No scripture says God is a trinity so that should be the end of discussion.

    #110154
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Hi LU

    Regarding the references in Genesis 6 where the scripture says the sons of God saw the daughters of men..

    This does not say it is angels – that is an assumption arrived at based upon Jewish historians such as Josephus
    and upon the recently discovered ‘book of Enoch’

    Job 38:7 Where the morning star sang and the sons of God shouted for joy,
    this also does not say definitively that it is angels being referred to …

    The most mysterious references to me are those found in Job 1 & 2
    Where the sons of God come to present themselves before the LORD and Satan also presents himself.

    I am not 100% sure what this is referring to but once again it does not say that they are angels.

    Certainly Satan is not in the same place (Heaven) as Angels.
    Also as I understand it angels dwell in heaven and worship God there continuously
    So it would seem incongruent to make these sons of God angels therefore
    As they are always present before the LORD and hardly need to come and present themselves…
    (imo)

    #110155
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Ken

    Quote
    Malcom, it takes hard work and study, thats all there is to it.


    I don’t see where Jesus or his disciples needed scholars to back them up.
    They are our examples to follow not a bunch of “experts”.
    Jesus talked to plenty of religious experts in his day
    and the only ones who benefitted were those who were also sensitive to the Spirit of God.

    Agreed we should study to show ourselves workman approved of God
    who are able to rightly divide the truth.
    But how is this study accomplished?
    By contemplation of scriptures and prayer primarily.
    Other resources may have their place also but not before this.

    As for hard work being required – we are not saved by hard work but Grace.
    If God deems us worthy of knowing He graciously shows us.
    We need only ask in earnest through diligent prayer.
    (imo)

    #110156
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MF,
    Angels are frequently found on earth.
    One third of them find themselves thrown from heaven.
    So on what are you basing these statements and how is satan different??

    He did seem to do his own thing .

    #110159
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Hi Ken
    With all due respects to your apparent vast knowledge of this subject I humbly submit the following remarks and observations:

    Quote
    Whats this….!!!?? A direct contradiction? Of course not. Why? Because our understanding of the term “firstborn”needs to be informed by the rich background of the Hebraic mind. As it turns out, when the term is applied to Jesus, it turns out that its not really a term denoting any temporal beginning at all, for Jesus is not a “firstborn: in the way we are used to thinking about the term at all, instead the term denotes a position of honor.


    I disagree, just because you can show that the word ‘Firstborn’ does have a broader meaning in a few isolated scriptures in the Old Testament does not prove that this broader meaning is the only applicable meaning in the new.

    Quote
    Just as Manasseh was the firstborn, and as such received his father's inheritance and place of honor, but then lost it due to disobedience, making Ephraim “firstborn”. Of course their chronological birth order did not change, but their place of honor did.


    I agree with you that this example here was a birth right issue, we see the same situation in the story of Jacob and Esau.
    I do not think you can use a few isolated examples however to discount the otherwise consistent meaning of the word ‘Firstborn’ as used in the Old Testament. The majority of cases are clearly referring to a ‘first born child’.
    It certainly is no proof that the son of God did not have a beginning, as all of these who were termed ‘Firstborn’ in the Old Testament had beginnings, even the nation Israel which God calls His firstborn, has a beginning.

    Quote
    Now when it comes the term “Son”, Jesus, not having a human father, immediately is seen to not be a “Son” in the same way a human son is.


    We have covered this in another post, God is Spirit – Spirit begets Spirit, Flesh begets Flesh…

    Quote
    In addressing the Father in His prayer in John 17 He says, “Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the World.” Accordingly in the timeless past the Father and the “Son” existed in that relationship, a relationship of love, as well as of absolute Deity. In this passage the “Son” gives evidence that there was no more powerful plea in the Father's estimation than that coeternal love existing between the Father and Himself.


    He also loved us before the foundation of the world, he chose us as a result and our names were put on the Lamb’s book of life. The Lamb is also said to have been slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8) yet clearly Jesus was not slain until he came in flesh at a much later time, so this is obviously a reference to the foreknowledge of God. This prayer is no proof of the eternality of the Son.

    Quote
    In Heb_1:5, that the declaration refers to the Birth is confirmed by the contrast in verse 6. Here the word “again” is rightly placed in the RV, “when He again bringeth in the Firstborn into the world.” This points on to His Second Advent, which is set in contrast to His first Advent, when God brought His Firstborn into the world the first time (see FIRSTBORN).


    Look at the tense in Heb 1:5-6
    A question posed: to which angel did GOD ever say ‘you are My son today I have begotten you’?
    And again: to which angel did he say: ‘I will be to him a Father and he will be to me a son’?
    And a third proof: when GOD brings the firstborn into the world HE says ‘let all the angels of GOD worship him.’
    And they did at his birth as witnessed by the shepherds.
    First question is showing us that: unlike any angel – this one is called the Son of God.
    It is the first question and also first in sequence of time (imo) and the tense declares that he is his Son (not will be), and that he is begotten at that time.
    Second question asks which angel did God ever say he would be a Father to him and the angel would be a son to Him.
    Showing that clearly angels do not qualify for the classification of sons of God. (imo)
    Also the tense here lets us know that this one spoken of (the preincarnate son) is not yet openly declared or known in an active role of Son yet.
    Third and summary statement in this 3 part proof that angels do not classify as sons of God: when God now brings this one (called the firstborn) into the world the angels are commanded to worship him.
    So this one brought into the world is already the firstborn before he is brought into the world. (imo)

    Perhaps you could show me where the word Begotten as used in the scripture does not mean to bear forth in birth an offspring of your own kind, or refer to that offspring…

    #110160
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MF,
    You say
    “The Lamb is also said to have been slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8) “

    Not so.
    The KVJ seems to show this but all others versions make it clear that the book of life is being spoken of as does a similar verse in Rev 17.8

    #110161
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Hi Nick
    Yes Satan and his angels seem to be in the lower heavens I think it is called.

    Not an expert on this subject by any means but as I understand it Satan was one called Lucifer and was an angel of God,
    he was anointed to minister in the worship of God and he got on an ego trip and fell taking a bunch of angels with him.

    You are right angels are frequently found on earth,
    the word angel actually translates as messenger
    and there are instances in the scriptures where an earthly minister is called an angel in this context.

    As I understand it though an angel is a spirit being and though they may be sent to earth to deliver messages
    they generally dwell in the heavenly realm.

    Heb 1:5-6 also sheds a little light on the fact that angels and sons of God are not the same,
    as I briefly commented upon in my last reply to Ken.

    #110162
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Hi Nick

    I still believe the language of the KJV holds true in this case.
    I believe that God foreknew this situation and had made prior provision for it.

    Rev 13:8 (NASB)
    All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

    It is still called the book of life of the Lamb, so when did God first conceive of this book of life of the Lamb and why?

    Acts 2:23 (NASB)
    this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

    #110163
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    A firstborn can lose his birth right and given to another.

    All firstborns were literally speaking the firstborn.

    With the following exception: It could be lost and given/transferred to another.

    So why isn't Jesus literally the firstborn of all creation?
    Why isn't he the first act of the Father?

    What makes a person think that Yeshua wasn't actually the first born of or over all creation, but only in status?

    #110167
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 11 2008,01:40)
    Hi LU

    Regarding the references in Genesis 6 where the scripture says the sons of God saw the daughters of men..

    This does not say it is angels – that is an assumption arrived at based upon Jewish historians such as Josephus
    and upon the recently discovered ‘book of Enoch’

    Job 38:7 Where the morning star sang and the sons of God shouted for joy,
    this also does not say definitively that it is angels being referred to …

    The most mysterious references to me are those found in Job 1 & 2
    Where the sons of God come to present themselves before the LORD and Satan also presents himself.

    I am not 100% sure what this is referring to but once again it does not say that they are angels.

    Certainly Satan is not in the same place (Heaven) as Angels.
    Also as I understand it angels dwell in heaven and worship God there continuously
    So it would seem incongruent to make these sons of God angels therefore
    As they are always present before the LORD and hardly need to come and present themselves…
    (imo)


    H Malcolm,
    The commentaries I read that commented on the “sons of God” in these verses in Job (I didn't research the commentaries on the other verses) agree that they are the angels. Who else could it have been? IMO it seems obvious.

    Job 2:1-6
    …I. The court set, and the prosecutor, or accuser, making his appearance (v. 1-2), as before, Job 1:6-7. The angels attended God's throne and Satan among them….
    (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright  1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)

    Job 2:1
    A day – appointed for the angels giving an account of their ministry to God. The words to present himself before the Lord occur here, though not in Job 1:6, since Satan now has a special report to make regarding Job….
    (from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright  1997 by Biblesoft)

    LU

    #110168
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi E,

    Quote

    I only know what the Scripture says:

    Mat 1:18 esv Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

    Luk 1:35 esv And the angel answered her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy the Son of God.

    It is no more difficult to imagine the Holy Spirit to be the cause of Jesus' conception then it is for the Father, they are both spirit and incorporeal; and both the Holy Spirit and the Father are God. Here again, just like we have the Scriptures telling us the Father raised Jesus from the dead, and yet we have Jesus claiming that it is He who would raise himself from the dead, and yet the biblical writers seem to be conscience of no contradiction, so too we have the Scriptures on the one hand saying that it was the Holy Spirit who “overshadowed” Mary resulting in the conception of Jesus, yet we also have many instances of Jehovah/Yahweh being Jesus' Father eg resulting in Jesus' conception. Here again we can see how difficult a seemingly simple term like “Father” can be. So which is it, the Holy Spirit or Yahweh? The answer is “both” since the Holy Spirit is God.

    Hope this helps.

    blessings,
    Ken

    Did it ever occur to you that the Holy Spirit of the Father could be the actual inner spirit of the Father and if the Father's inner spirit does something the Father is the one doing the thing through His spirit. This is not an odd idea that the mind would control the spirit within. Therefore, the child conceived by the Holy Spirit would be the child of the Most High God of which that said spirit indwelt.

    Also, in reference to the passage regarding Jesus raising Himself and the Father raising Jesus, I have this to point out to you as an easy way to reconcile this.

    This passage refers to the Father's part in raising Jesus, IMO:
    Matt 28:4-7
    5 The angel said to the women, ” Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. 6 “He is not here, for HE HAS RISEN, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying. 7 “Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead; and behold, He is going ahead of you into Galilee, there you will see Him; behold, I have told you.”
    NASU

    And this is where Jesus raises Himself up on the third day:
    John 20:16-18
    17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ASCEND to My Father and your Father, and MY GOD AND YOUR God.'”
    NASU

    There you have it, two different raising ups both on the third day.

    LU

    #110170
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (epistemaniac @ Oct. 11 2008,00:17)

    Quote (malcolm ferris @ Oct. 10 2008,19:34)

    Quote
    listen carefully to what I am saying…..and equally carefully to what I am not saying… I am NOT saying that Jesus is not the Son of God…. I am saying that He is NOT the Son of God 1) in the same we any other human is called a son or daughter of the most high and 2) that He is not the Son in the same way a human has a Son…..


    Sounds good in theory – but how can I have any concept of a son that is not like any son or offspring in the natural except that the dissimilarities be explicitly outlined to me. I don’t see statements in the scripture to that end, indicating that he is the son of God in some ways but in others not a son like us.
    Perhaps it would be helpful to examine these dissimilarities as you say
    (1) Dissimilar in the sense that he is not the son of God in the same way we (the sons of God) are called sons.
    By this I assume you are meaning that because Jesus is the uniquely begotten son he is different.
    I would say that this denotes a difference in the way he came to be manifest in flesh – i.e. he (unlike us) had a pre-existence in the form of Spirit, and a former knowledge of his Father which we lacked until the rebirth. Also he came into flesh without the need of sexual reproduction which was introduced after the fall when man took on the nature of beasts. Adam was formed by God apart from sex as was Eve. Christ was of the same pattern as are the reborn – who are not born of the will of the flesh or of man but born of God by the Spirit of God.
    Also this uniqueness extends to his status as that of a firstborn and as such the principle heir to his Father. (A difference of role – not an intrinsic difference)
    In any other sense I see no dissimilarity – he is a son not of Flesh but manifest in flesh, as are the sons of God, born in this world but not of it, born of the same Spirit of God.
    Jesus in fact removes most of the obstacles that we as humans would tend to place before ourselves as a way of distancing ourselves from him as a son.
    He unashamedly calls us brethren, not servants.
    He teaches us that we can have an intimate relationship with the Father as he has.
    We obtain a degree of equality with him that is likened to that of Eve – the bride of Adam, who was equal with him before the transgression. She was taken from his side, and was given to him. So is Christ the head of the Church. But this is a difference of role, not an intrinsic difference.
    (2) that He is not the Son in the same way a human has a Son
    Obviously we understand that any true son of God is not born by the regular human way of reproduction but by the Spirit of God. How are we different to him in this respect? Remember we are speaking here of sons of God, we are not born in flesh as sons of God but with a contrary spirit and nature to God. This is why we must be born again of the Spirit.
    Only difference here between us and Jesus as a son was that he did not require a rebirth to be son of God, but was (as Adam) a son of God from birth. (imo)
    So GOD does not require a process of sexual reproduction in order to produce a son of God. Instead of begetting sons by sex he begets us by His Spirit. That stands to reason considering God is Spirit and not flesh and bone.
    It was GOD who set the pattern for life natural as well summarized in Gen 1:11 and whether by sex or botanic reproduction we see this pattern applies. Why did God set such unchanging patterns into His physical creation?
    Because the natural shadows and types to the Spiritual. Thus we are able to draw upon natural analogies as scripture does to illustrate the way of God. (imo)
    It was God who chose this use of language: Father and Son, and nowhere does he show us that this relationship is exceptional to that of a natural Father and Son, except it is obvious that there are differences in the way God achieves the bringing forth of sons, and human beings or other animals do.
    Also there are differences of role and therefore position and status.
    Blessings


    Malcom, it takes hard work and study, thats all there is to it.

    Let me give you and example, lets look at the word “Firstborn”. Now we think that we all have a good handle on that word, pretty simple right? JW's and others who deny the deity and eternalty of Christ, those who say, whatever their other beliefs, that Jesus is a created being, they have all looked at this term (firstborn) and thought that:

    “HA! here is proof that Jesus is not eternal!! That Jesus is a created being!! How can Jesus be called the “Firstborn” unless He came into being at a point in time, just like any other and every other “firstborn”?”

    Well the answer to that question comes with some study. First we look at Gen 41:51-52 esv  Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh. For, he said, God has made me forget all my hardship and all my father's house.  (52)  The name of the second he called Ephraim, For God has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction.”

    Pretty straightforward right? Manasseh is Joseph's firstborn. But wait….

    Jer 31:9 esv  With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

    Whats this….!!!?? A direct contradiction? Of course not. Why? Because our understanding of the term “firstborn”needs to be informed by the rich background of the Hebraic mind. As it turns out, when the term is applied to Jesus, it turns out that its not really a term denoting any temporal beginning at all, for Jesus is not a “firstborn: in the way we are used to thinking about the term at all, instead the term denotes a position of honor. Just as Manasseh was the firstborn, and as such received his father's inheritance and place of honor, but then lost it due to disobedience, making Ephraim “firstborn”. Of course their chronological birth order did not change, but their place of honor did. Now when it comes the term “Son”, Jesus, not having a human father, immediately is seen to not be a “Son” in the same way a human son is. So if it doesn't mean “progeny: or “physical descendant what does it mean? Well,  it turns out the the phrase “Son of God” is actually a Messianic title and much more should be understood when we see the phrase then merely some vague reference supposedly meaning that Jesus is not eternal merely because He is a Son. Vine's writes  “* The Son of God

    In this title the word “Son” is used sometimes (a) of relationship, sometimes (b) of the expression of character. “Thus, e.g., when the disciples so addressed Him, Mat_14:33; Mat_16:16; Joh_1:49, when the centurion so spoke of Him, Mat_27:54, they probably meant that (b) He was a manifestation of God in human form. But in such passages as Luk_1:32, Luk_1:35; Act_13:33, which refer to the humanity of the Lord Jesus, the word is used in sense (a).

    “The Lord Jesus Himself used the full title on occasion, Joh_5:25; Joh_9:35 [some mss. have 'the Son of Man'; see RV marg.]; Joh_11:4, and on the more frequent occasions on which He spoke of Himself as 'the Son,' the words are to be understood as an abbreviation of 'the Son of God,' not of 'the Son of M
    an'; this latter He always expressed in full; see Luk_10:22; Joh_5:19, etc.

    “John uses both the longer and shorter forms of the title in his Gospel, see Joh_3:16-18; Joh_20:31, e.g., and in his Epistles; cp. Rev_2:18. So does the writer of Hebrews, Heb_1:2; Heb_4:14; Heb_6:6, etc. An eternal relation subsisting between the Son and the Father in the Godhead is to be understood. That is to say, the Son of God, in His eternal relationship with the Father, is not so entitled because He at any time began to derive His being from the Father (in which case He could not be co-eternal with the Father), but because He is and ever has been the expression of what the Father is; cp. Joh_14:9, 'he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father.' The words of Heb_1:3, 'Who being the effulgence of His (God's) glory, and the very image of His (God's) substance' are a definition of what is meant by 'Son of God.' Thus absolute Godhead, not Godhead in a secondary or derived sense, is intended in the title.” * [* From Notes on Galatians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 99, 100.]

    Other titles of Christ as the “Son of God” are: “His Son,” 1Th_1:10 (in Act_13:13, Act_13:26, RV, pais is rendered “servant”); “His own Son,” Rom_8:32; “My beloved Son,” Mat_3:17; “His Only Begotten Son,” Joh_3:16; “the Son of His love,” Col_1:13.

    “The Son is the eternal object of the Father's love, Joh_17:24, and the sole Revealer of the Father's character, Joh_1:14; Heb_1:3. The words, 'Father' and 'Son,' are never in the NT so used as to suggest that the Father existed before the Son; the Prologue to the Gospel according to John distinctly asserts that the Word existed 'in the beginning,' and that this Word is the Son, Who 'became flesh and dwelt among us.'” * [* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine pp. 46,47.]

    In addressing the Father in His prayer in John 17 He says, “Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the World.” Accordingly in the timeless past the Father and the “Son” existed in that relationship, a relationship of love, as well as of absolute Deity. In this passage the “Son” gives evidence that there was no more powerful plea in the Father's estimation than that coeternal love existing between the Father and Himself.

    The declaration “Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee,” Psa_2:7, quoted in Act_13:33; Heb_1:5; Heb_5:5, refers to the birth of Christ, not to His resurrection. In Act_13:33 the verb “raise up” is used of the raising up of a person to occupy a special position in the nation, as of David in Act_13:22 (so of Christ as a Prophet in Act_3:22; Act_7:37). The word “again” in the AV in Act_13:33 represents nothing in the original. The RV rightly omits it. In Act_13:34 the statement as to the resurrection of Christ receives the greater stress in this respect through the emphatic contrast to that in Act_13:33 as to His being raised up in the nation, a stress imparted by the added words “from the dead.” Accordingly Act_13:33 speaks of His incarnation, Act_13:34 of His resurrection.

    In Heb_1:5, that the declaration refers to the Birth is confirmed by the contrast in verse 6. Here the word “again” is rightly placed in the RV, “when He again bringeth in the Firstborn into the world.” This points on to His Second Advent, which is set in contrast to His first Advent, when God brought His Firstborn into the world the first time (see FIRSTBORN). * [* The Western text of Luk_3:22 reads “Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee,” instead of “Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well pleased.” There is probably some connection between this and those early heresies which taught that our Lord's Deity began at His baptism.”

    Thayer says “Term (Son of God) used preeminently of Jesus Christ, as enjoying the supreme love of God, united to him in affectionate intimacy, privy to his saving councils, obedient to the Father’s will in all his acts”

    The important thing, or one of the important things to take from all this is to simply not take it for granted that one knows what a certain phrase or word means without first doing at least a little research.

    blessings,
    Ken


    Hello again E,
    So Jesus fulfilled the law in every way but didn't fulfill the requirements for being the perfect sacrifice in every way? I find that inconsistent. If He wasn't the actual “firstborn” but one given the title “firstborn” over another, btw who was the “other” that He took the rightful title away from, then He wasn't the perfect sacrifice. In the OT, the creme of the crop animal that met all the qualities of the best one to sacrifice was the one first out of the womb, unblemished, and spotless.

    Also, the term “firstborn” does not equal “first created.” I don't believe that is says that Adam is the firstborn man but he was the first created man. I don't believe that the Son came into existence as a created work but as by reproduction from an uncreated Father-God.

    LU

    #110173
    Tiffany
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Oct. 11 2008,23:03)
    A firstborn can lose his birth right and given to another.

    All firstborns were literally speaking the firstborn.

    With the following exception: It could be lost and given/transferred to another.

    So why isn't Jesus literally the firstborn of all creation?
    Why isn't he the first act of the Father?

    What makes a person think that Yeshua wasn't actually the first born of or over all creation, but only in status?


    t8 Good question!! Those that do not believe in the preexisting of Jesus however, seem to not look at it like that.
    Is it because God only calls a few to understand the Truth right now?  Many are called and few are chosen. We can talk to them until you blue in the face and they just don't get. I have found that to be true with our Family too.
    We do know that all truth will be taught in the Millenium and the truth will cover the earth like water covers the sea.
    I believe time is short, all signs are here. For Christ return.
    I for one am looking forward to that very much.
    Peace and Love Irene

    #110177
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Hi LU
    Good questions, like I say I do not have all the answers.
    There is a hint in the Scriptures that a great deal had already transpired before the scene in Gen1:1.
    And that the state of the Genesis 1 earth was the result of a great catastrophic event.

    I do not claim to know a lot about the subject as little is written concerning it in scripture.
    Certainly this is an interesting topic,
    perhaps it would be best continued on a different thread as it does tend to digress from the topic at hand.

    Suffice to say that I believe that angels are a different classification of being to sons of God.
    Their primary role and purpose appears to be to worship God and to act as His messengers.
    In Revelation we are told that the redeemed sing the song of the Lamb –
    a song which angels are not entitled to sing as they cannot claim the experience of salvation.

    Also we learn from Jesus that friends are not as servants,
    they are made privy to the Fathers’ business to a greater degree than are servants. (15:5)

    Paul tells us that angels desired to look into the things that we have been privileged to learn by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (1 Pet 1:12)

    Also in 1 Cor 6:3 Paul tells us that we shall judge angels,
    which suggests to me that a son of God holds a position and status in Heaven differing to that of angels.

    Looking at Heb 1:4 we find that Jesus is above the angels due to the fact that he,
    by inheritance has a more excellent name than them.

    In other words he is a Son of God not a servant.
    A servant does not inherit a Father’s estate in the normal course.

    I have already commented on the verses that follow in another post on this thread –
    suffice to say that I believe ample distinction is made between angels and the Son of God.

    The same does not hold true to the same degree when looking at the distinctions made between the Son of God and men.

    Upon redemption through rebirth we become his brethren.
    Through Christ God does much to remove the differences we had with Him by conforming us into the image of His Son.
    We are given a place in the shared throne of God’s administration, to rule and reign as kings and priests.  
    I do not see any mention of angels obtaining such positions.
    (imo)

    #110178
    malcolm ferris
    Participant

    Quote
    In Revelation we are told that the redeemed sing the song of the Lamb – a song which angels are not entitled to sing as they cannot claim the experience of salvation.

    OOPS – scratch that it's not in revelation I was thinking of the words of an old hymn, my mistake.

    #110179
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MF,
    Here are songs from Revelation.
    Revelation 5:9
    And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    By the 24 ELDERS
    Revelation 14:3
    And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    The 144.000
    Revelation 15:3
    And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

    Those who had triumphed in the great tribulation.

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