John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 17,421 through 17,440 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #386580
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ June 02 2014,12:46)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2014,21:59)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2014,14:20)
    Do you still agree that the statement “God is Love” does not mean God is literally love?

    Do you instead believe God has the qualities of love?


    Yes, I agree that God is not LITERALLY the abstract emotion of “love”.  Not only does He have the qualities of love, but He is the “epicenter” of love.


    Mike,

    In John 8:12 and John 9:5 Jesus states “I am the light of the world”

    Does that mean that he is literally the light of the world or that he has the qualities of the light of the world?


    He is literally the lamp that God sent into the world to shine some spiritual light on us.

    He is NOT literally the “sunlight” that brightens the earth.

    This one is trickier.  For example take “the word of God”.  Is Jesus literally “The Word of God”?

    Well, yes and no.  He is NOT literally a literal word that God spoke from His mouth.  But since in this case, “Word” means “spokesman”, yes, he IS literally God's spokesman.

    So in the context of Jesus being a lamp that shined the light of God into many hearts, yes, he is literally the light (wonderful counselor) of the world. The world was a brighter place because of him.

    But no, he is not literally “light itself” – like when you turn on the light switch.

    #386602
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    Quote

    Kerwin,

    FOR JESUS IT WAS NOT A BAPTISM OF FORGIVENESS SINCE HE WAS SINLESS!

    I am not sure that follows and I do know that Scripture states that John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins. The fact Jesus had nothing to sin may not have effected the type of immersion it was.

    It also is possible Jesus was sealing himself to a deeper service to God than he he performed during his earlier life as that is a one purpose of immersion among the Jews. Scripture does not say.

    #386625
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    He is literally the lamp that God sent into the world to shine some spiritual light on us.

    John 9:5 states he was the light of the world only as long as he was in the world.

    I can see where he is figuratively the lamp that shines the light of the world but I have always thought he was still the lamp of the world.

    #386691
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,June 03 2014,13:16][/quote]

    Quote
    And Jesus told Satan, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

    Mike,

    AND WHAT WAS WRITTEN IT WAS AS A REFERENCE TO JESUS!

    SO JESUS IS THE LORD GOD OVER SATAN

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #386697
    kerwin
    Participant

    Charles,

    Romans 8:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    To condemn sin in the flesh Jesus had to overcome it and that is why he took part in flesh and blood just like his brothers. His temptations came from that satan in him but his fruit came from obeying the teachings of the Holy Spirit within him.

    #386716
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,June 03 2014,04:21][/quote]

    Quote
    SO IT WAS A LIMITED DOMINION WOULD YOU NOT SAY ;YES

    Terraricca,

    NO!

    ADAM RECEIVED DOMINION AS LONG AS THE EARTH STANDS!

    THE ONLY THING WHICH WAS DIFFERENT WAS THAT HE RECEIVED ALL WHAT WAS RELATED TO HIS DISOBEDIENCE WHICH INCLUDED DEATH!

    THAT WAS GOD'S SENTENCE!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #386755
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ June 03 2014,12:45)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2014,13:16)
    And Jesus told Satan, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

    Mike,

    AND WHAT WAS WRITTEN IT WAS AS A REFERENCE TO JESUS!

    SO JESUS IS THE LORD GOD OVER SATAN

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    No sir. Jesus referred to the command that it was not wise for him to put HIS GOD Jehovah to the test, by throwing himself off the mountain and expecting God to send angels to save him.

    Charles, Jesus himself told us that our God was also his God. Jesus himself worshiped that God along with the other Jews.

    #386762
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ June 04 2014,02:15)
    [quote=terraricca,June 03 2014,04:21][/quote]

    Quote
    SO IT WAS A LIMITED DOMINION WOULD YOU NOT SAY ;YES

    Terraricca,

    NO!

    ADAM RECEIVED DOMINION AS LONG AS THE EARTH STANDS!

    THE ONLY THING WHICH WAS DIFFERENT WAS THAT HE RECEIVED ALL WHAT WAS RELATED TO HIS DISOBEDIENCE WHICH INCLUDED DEATH!

    THAT WAS GOD'S SENTENCE!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    cHARLES

    BUT ADAM DID NOT YET SIN WHEN HE RECEIVED THE DOMINION ,

    #386857
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,June 03 2014,13:23][/quote]

    Quote
     God alone created all things.  But God has done that through many various vessels, including Jesus and my parents.  

    Mike,

    THE ABOVE IS KID’S STUFF!

    IT HAPPENED ONCE UPON A TIME!

    AND YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF!

    THE PLAIN TRUTH IS:

    GOD DESIGNED THAT:

    YOUR PARENTS DETERMINED BOTH YOUR LIFE AND WHAT KIND OF SOUL YOU RECEIVED FROM GOD!

    THEREFORE YOUR PARENTS ARE CO CREATORS

    GOD DESIGNED THAT HE IS READY TO BE  SUBJECT TO HUMANS REGARDING BIRTHS ON EARTH!

    HE ONLY ACT IN RELATION TO THEIR SEXUAL ACT, TO SUPPLY SOULS!

    FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE SOUL! HIS ONLY INTEREST

    SO HUMANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CORRUPTED FLESH!NOT GOD

    HUMANS TO DAY ARE DESTROYING HUMANS TO BE, EMBRYOS

    MORE THAN  HUMANS’ NATURAL DEATH WHICH IS GOD’S PROCESS!

    SO HUMANS OVERRULED GOD REGARDING THEIR OWN DEATH!

    SO ALL IN ALL:

    HUMANS HAVE CONTROL BOTH ON THEIR OWN BIRTHS, AND ON THEIR OWN DEATHS

    THAT’S WHAT GOD DESIGNED: THAT MAN HAS TOTAL DOMINION ON EARTH

    THE REASON THAT THE FLESH ALWAYS SUFFERS FOR THE SAKE OF THE SOUL!

    THE REASON THAT JESUS SUFFERED IN HIS FLESH BODY FOR ALL HUMAN'S SOULS!

    HE MADE ALL JUSTICE LIKE HE SAID ON HIS BAPTISM, AND ERADICATED SATANA FROM AUTOMATIC POSSESSION OF ALL SOULS ON CONCEPTION, DUE TO ADAM'S SIN

    IN ORDER TO ALLOW HUMANS TO HAVE ABSOLUTE DOMINION ON EARTH

    AND THEY WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDINGLY IN THE TRUTH

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #386860
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,June 04 2014,10:04][/quote]

    Quote
    BUT ADAM DID NOT YET SIN WHEN HE RECEIVED THE DOMINION ,

    Terraricca,

    THEREFORE, ONCE HE SINNED HE LOST HIS DOMINION, SINCE SATAN TOOK OVER!

    BUT 2000 YEARS AGO, GOD CAME AS MAN IN JESUS, ERADICATED SATANA FROM THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE PROCESS OF CREATION, AND GAVE HUMANS ABSOLUTE DOMINION TO MAN AS LONG AS EARTH STANDS, AND THEY WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDINGLY

    JESUS SAID:

    IF THE SON MAKE YOU FREE, YOU WILL BE FREE INDEED

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #386907
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ June 03 2014,05:18)

    Quote (jammin @ June 02 2014,22:57)
    kerwin,

    a word for word doctrine in the bible is enough to tell you that Christ is the Word in john 1.1

    it is your choice not to believe what is written in the bible and i can not force you to accept God's word. only God can open your heart and mind


    Jammin,

    A word for word translation of John 1:1 teaches us only that the word of God was with God and has the qualities of God in the beginning.  

    To jump from that point and assume that means the word is the one true God is no different than looking as John's words to effect that the one true God is Love and jump to the conclusion he is literally love.

    You read what you want into Scripture not what God wants for God teaches us he is but one being and three beings united as one.


    john will never contradict himself. a moron can say that the Word in john 1.1 is not Christ but if you really know how to read the context of the bible, then you will understand that it is Christ and not what you think.

    Revelation 19:13
    New International Version (NIV)
    13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God

    who is that? that is Christ! his name is the Word of God. i remember you told Me before that the verse said his name WILL BE CALLED but an honest man will never say that. it is very obvious in the scripture that HIS NAME IS THE WORD OF GOD and not will be called the Word of God.

    you are not an honest man kerwin,. you preach what is not written and i cant blame you because you are blind. i hope God will open your eyes someday.

    #386908
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2014,13:33)

    Quote (jammin @ June 02 2014,10:55)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2014,04:04)

    Mark 13
    18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

    Jesus said it was GOD who created the world, jammin.  Why don't you believe him?

    Acts 4
    24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

    They prayed TO the one who made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.  That one was called “GOD”.

    30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

    Then they clearly identified Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the “GOD” who made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.  They called Jesus the “HOLY SERVANT OF” that God who made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

    And if Jesus is NOT the “GOD” who made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them, then Jesus has no choice but to BE one of the “everything in them” that was created BY the “GOD” they prayed to.

    do you believe that Christ created the heaven and the earth according to heb 1.10?


    Nope.  I don't believe that's what Heb 1:10 says at all.

    Of course, how COULD that be what Heb 1:10 means, since it would clearly CONTRADICT the scriptures I posted above, and many other ones?

    jammin, do you believe Acts 4 shows that Jesus is the holy servant OF the one who actually created all things?

    Do you believe Mark 13:18, in which Jesus said GOD (not HIMSELF) created the world?

    Would you like to see more scriptures in which Jesus is clearly identified as someone OTHER THAN the one who created all things?


    it does not contradict the scripture.
    i just want to make this simple because it is hard to explain things to a moron like you.

    no version says that THE LORD who made the heaven and the earth in heb 1.10 is NOT the son.
    if you can give me a version that says in heb 1.10 that the Lord IS NOT  THE SON, then you win. if not, then it only proves that you are the king of mosquito coil

    I CAN GIVE YOU MANY VERSIONS THAT SAY IN HEB 1.10 THAT THE LORD WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH IS THE SON IF YOU WANT TO :) HAHAHA

    #386909
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2014,13:26)

    Quote (jammin @ June 02 2014,10:50)
    now your brain is working. hahaha

    those scholars know greek grammar but you don't!


    Agreed on both counts.  My brain IS working, and those scholars DO know Greek.


    YES! you are right mike! hallelujah!

    that is why they said that the word is a god is NOT GRAMMATICALLY FAVOURED

    bingo! hahahah

    #386910
    jammin
    Participant

    mike,

    im still waiting for you to answer my question about the essence of GOd.

    i am glad GOd opened your eyes about the nature of Christ and his father. you now believe that they are equal in essence and that is an improvement from you. my question is, what is the essence of GOd?

    #387020
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ June 04 2014,10:20)
    no version says that THE LORD who made the heaven and the earth in heb 1.10 is NOT the son.


    There is also no GREEK version that says those words were said about the Son.

    But back to the scriptures I listed, jammin…….. since I listed mine first.

    What about Acts 4?  Can you see that the one they prayed TO was the one who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them?

    And can you see that Jesus WASN'T the one they prayed TO – but the holy servant OF the one they prayed TO?

    How about Mark 13:18?  Who did JESUS say created the world?  Himself?  Or GOD?

    Here's another one:

    Isaiah 42
    5 This is what God the LORD says—
    the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
       who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
       who gives breath to its people,
       and life to those who walk on it:

    6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
       I will take hold of your hand.
    I will keep you and will make you
       to be a covenant for the people
       and a light for the Gentiles,

    7 to open eyes that are blind,
       to free captives from prison
       and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

    Notice how JEHOVAH GOD is the one who created and stretched out the heavens.

    Notice how He is talking to JESUS – who DIDN'T create and stretch out the heavens.

    See?  The one DOING the talking is the one who created the heavens………. not the one being talked to.

    There are more.  Would you like to see them as well?

    #387025
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ June 04 2014,10:21)
    that is why they said that the word is a god is NOT GRAMMATICALLY FAVOURED


    jammin,

    We are talking about the difference between what is POSSIBLE, and what certain Trinitarians LIKE.

    Who cares what they LIKE? ???  Because they would LIKE us to believe that the Son OF God IS the very God he is the Son OF.  So what they LIKE is really of no consequence, since it's clear they all need to have their heads examined.

    What's important is that “a god” IS a viable translation of John 1:1c – whether or not the Trinitarians LIKE that translation.

    So we know that both translations are possible.  One of them calls for our one and only God to have been WITH our one and only God in the beginning.  You can throw that one out like a bunch of garbage, because it is complete and utter NONSENSE.

    The other one says Jesus is “a god” who was with “THE God” in the beginning.  That one is scripturally accurate, since Jehovah is the “God OF gods”, and scripture teaches us that Jesus IS one of the gods that Jehovah is the God OF.

    I have said all I need to say on the matter.

    #387028
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ June 04 2014,10:23)
    mike,

    im still waiting for you to answer my question about the essence of GOd.

    i am glad GOd opened your eyes about the nature of Christ and his father. you now believe that they are equal in essence and that is an improvement from you. my question is, what is the essence of GOd?


    The essence of God is “spirit”.  He is a SPIRIT being, and therefore “SPIRIT” is His essence.

    Jesus, Michael, Gabriel, and the myriads of other spirit sons of God also share that same SPIRIT essence.

    But none of those SONS of God are the very God they are the SON of.  

    The very thought that some man, years ago, would even claim such an illogical and asinine thing as a son being the same entity as his father, befuddles me.

    Why MILLIONS of other people would listen to that man, and believe the same nonsense, is completely beyond my comprehension.

    #387210
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 05 2014,11:04)

    Quote (jammin @ June 04 2014,10:21)
    that is why they said that the word is a god is NOT GRAMMATICALLY FAVOURED


    jammin,

    We are talking about the difference between what is POSSIBLE, and what certain Trinitarians LIKE.

    Who cares what they LIKE? ???  Because they would LIKE us to believe that the Son OF God IS the very God he is the Son OF.  So what they LIKE is really of no consequence, since it's clear they all need to have their heads examined.

    What's important is that “a god” IS a viable translation of John 1:1c – whether or not the Trinitarians LIKE that translation.

    So we know that both translations are possible.  One of them calls for our one and only God to have been WITH our one and only God in the beginning.  You can throw that one out like a bunch of garbage, because it is complete and utter NONSENSE.

    The other one says Jesus is “a god” who was with “THE God” in the beginning.  That one is scripturally accurate, since Jehovah is the “God OF gods”, and scripture teaches us that Jesus IS one of the gods that Jehovah is the God OF.

    I have said all I need to say on the matter.


    as i said, it is hard to explain these things to a moron like you. why dont you study greek and get back to me once you have enough knowledge??? are you better than those scholars? you have nothing to offer mike. the Word was a god is a possible translation but it is not grammatically favoured according to the greek scholars. that is not hard to understand.

    the kai theos in john 1.1 was translated a god by your favorite bias version NWT but if you will check the 2 cor 1.3 kai theos, they translated it as God and not god which is very obvious that these translators do not want their readers to know the truth.

    2 cor 1.3
    3 ευλογητος ο θεος και πατηρ του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου ο πατηρ των οικτιρμων και θεος πασης παρακλησεως

    john 1.1
    1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

    #387211
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 05 2014,11:09)

    Quote (jammin @ June 04 2014,10:23)
    mike,

    im still waiting for you to answer my question about the essence of GOd.

    i am glad GOd opened your eyes about the nature of Christ and his father. you now believe that they are equal in essence and that is an improvement from you. my question is, what is the essence of GOd?


    The essence of God is “spirit”.  He is a SPIRIT being, and therefore “SPIRIT” is His essence.

    Jesus, Michael, Gabriel, and the myriads of other spirit sons of God also share that same SPIRIT essence.

    But none of those SONS of God are the very God they are the SON of.  

    The very thought that some man, years ago, would even claim such an illogical and asinine thing as a son being the same entity as his father, befuddles me.

    Why MILLIONS of other people would listen to that man, and believe the same nonsense, is completely beyond my comprehension.


    an honest man gives a COMPLETE answer. you are not giving me complete answers.

    let me give you a question.
    is all powerful not part of God's essence?

    #387212
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 05 2014,10:51)

    Quote (jammin @ June 04 2014,10:20)
    no version says that THE LORD who made the heaven and the earth in heb 1.10 is NOT the son.


    There is also no GREEK version that says those words were said about the Son.

    But back to the scriptures I listed, jammin…….. since I listed mine first.

    What about Acts 4?  Can you see that the one they prayed TO was the one who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them?

    And can you see that Jesus WASN'T the one they prayed TO – but the holy servant OF the one they prayed TO?

    How about Mark 13:18?  Who did JESUS say created the world?  Himself?  Or GOD?

    Here's another one:

    Isaiah 42
    5 This is what God the LORD says—
    the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
       who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
       who gives breath to its people,
       and life to those who walk on it:

    6 “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
       I will take hold of your hand.
    I will keep you and will make you
       to be a covenant for the people
       and a light for the Gentiles,

    7 to open eyes that are blind,
       to free captives from prison
       and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

    Notice how JEHOVAH GOD is the one who created and stretched out the heavens.

    Notice how He is talking to JESUS – who DIDN'T create and stretch out the heavens.

    See?  The one DOING the talking is the one who created the heavens………. not the one being talked to.

    There are more.  Would you like to see them as well?


    greek scholars know better than you know mike. hahaha
    if that Lord in heb 1.10 refers to the father, then you can easily give me a version that says the Lord in heb 1.10 is the father. you are not making any sense hahha

    the truth is no bible scholars will translate that heb 1.10 Lord as the father who made the heaven and the earth because it is ludicrous. therefore, you cant give a version. correct? hahahaa
    the bible teaches us that God created all things THROUGH CHRIST.
    poor mike.

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