John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 17,361 through 17,380 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #385661
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,May 22 2014,12:26][/quote]

    Quote
    There is no such thing as a “spiritual body”.

    Mike,

    THE ONLY SPIRIT WHICH IS WITHOUT A BODY IS GOD!

    ALL THE REST HAVE A KIND OF BODY!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #385823
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,May 31 2014,05:10][/quote]

    Quote
    Those that believe Jesus is the one true God do not have case as they have abandoned reason when they claim Jesus is the one true God and he was also tempted even as common to men.

    Kerwin,

    JESUS, THE ONE WHO WAS TEMPTED,  WAS IN THE NATURE OF MAN SON OF MAN WHEN HE WAS TEMPTED!

    HE WAS NOT THE SAME ONE IN ESSENCE, AS THE ONE WHO ENTERED THROUGH WALLS AND MANIFESTED THAT HE WAS

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    Kerwin,

    JESUS,FROM THE TIME THAT HE CAME INTO THE WORLD AND  LEFT IT, HE CHANGED HIMSELF SEVEN TIMES IN A DIFFERENT STATE

    THOSE SEVEN TIMES ARE REPRESENTED IN THE SEVEN GOLDEN CANDLE STICKS MENTIONED IN REV. 1:12

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #385853
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 29 2014,21:41)
    i can say i created my computer but it does not mean i created myself.


    Correct.  So when it is said that all things in heaven were created by God, it doesn't mean God created Himself.

    Likewise, when it says all things in heaven were created THROUGH Jesus, it doesn't mean Jesus was created THROUGH himself.

    Mark 13
    18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.

    Jesus said it was GOD who created the world, jammin.  Why don't you believe him?

    Acts 4
    24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

    They prayed TO the one who made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.  That one was called “GOD”.

    30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”

    Then they clearly identified Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the “GOD” who made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.  They called Jesus the “HOLY SERVANT OF” that God who made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

    And if Jesus is NOT the “GOD” who made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them, then Jesus has no choice but to BE one of the “everything in them” that was created BY the “GOD” they prayed to.

    I realize that you WANT Jesus to be “God”.  And you WANT Jesus to have existed from eternity.  But scriptures simply don't bear this teaching out, jammin.  These things are unscriptural, and were made up by men like you, who have a lot of WANTS when it comes to Jesus.

    #385854
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 29 2014,21:53)
    rt H. Gundry of Westmont College, Ca, USA wrote us:

    “As to the translation of John 1:1, “and the Word was a god” is grammatically possible but not grammatically favoured.”


    Good.  Now I have one more TRINITARIAN scholar to add to my list of people who say “a god” IS a possible way to translate John 1:1c.  Thanks, jammin!  :)

    Whether or not any of those Trinitarians “FAVOR” that translation is of no serious consequence, since it should be obvious that people who WANT Jesus to BE the very God he is the Son, Messiah, Prophet, Word, Lamb, Priest and Servant OF aren't too bright anyway……. so who really cares what they “FAVOR”?  :)

    Quote (jammin @ May 29 2014,21:53)
    C.H.Dodd has also written

    The reason why it is unacceptable is that it runs counter to the current of Johannine thought, and indeed of Christian thought as a whole.”-Technical Papers for The Bible Translator, Vol 28, No.1, January 1977.(italics ours)

    dont ever think that Dodd is accepting that version. you must read what dodd really meant by saying those words.

    I don't need Dodd to ACCEPT the translation of “a god”, jammin.  I only need him to say, “a possible translation of [QEOS EN hO LOGOS]; would be, 'The Word was a god'. As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.”  

    And that is what he said.  As for the rest of his comments, they fall under the things I said above.

    (I am curious to know what he considers “Johannine thought”, and how he thinks “a god” runs counter to that thought.  Because all throughout his gospel, John made it abundantly clear that Jesus was not God – but the SON and ANOINTED ONE of God.  So you can see that his words don't even make sense, or agree with scripture.  They are just words that Trinitarians like to say.  They think words like that will convince people like you that it makes SENSE for Jesus to BE the very God he is the Son, Messiah, Servant, Priest, Prophet, Word, and Lamb OF.  But those words have no real substance, jammin……… because “Johannine thought” never once taught that Jesus was “God”.)

    #385855
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 29 2014,23:57)
    [quote=mikeboll64,May 30 2014,12:01][/quote]

    Quote
    Most of those other christs and messiahs in scripture were also anointed with Holy Spirit, Charles.  David, Moses, Samuel, etc.

    Mike,

    PRODUCE SCRIPTURES PLEASE!

    BOTH REGARDING JESUS CHRIST AND ALL THE REST!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Here Charles,

    You can do your own search. The highlighted word “anointed” is the Hebrew word we translate as “messiah”. (In Greek, it is “christ”.)

    You'll see David as that “anointed one (messiah)” many times. You'll see Cyrus as God's messiah in Isaiah 45:1.

    You see the entire nation of Israel as God's “messiahs” in a couple of them.

    There's the info, do your own research.

    #385856
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 30 2014,08:38)
    I NEVER THROUGHOUT MY POSTS DENIED THAT GOD THE FATHER AND HIS SON ,WERE NOT TWO PERSONS!


    Yep. One is “God”, and the other is God's “Son”, ie: not “God Himself”.

    #385857
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    What you write is not written in Scripture it is a answer given to try to make the claim that Jesus is the one true non-temptable God agree with the fact Jesus was tempted as is common to man and exhibited non true God like characteristics.

    Your answer even goes beyond that of the general trinitarian as you claim he changed into seven different states.  It seem by state you mean “essential nature”.  Whatever you are saying I see little connection even to a misunderstanding of Scripture.  I got the seven candlesticks reference but I have no hint how you see them as evidence Jesus existed in seven states nor am I interested.  

    The trinitarians answer similarity by given Jesus two essential natures.  That is an absurd claim because no being is 100% of each of two kinds.

    #385858
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 30 2014,11:47)
    Mike,

    WHAT IF GOD WAS IN THAT FIRST EVER CREATURE WHATEVER IT MAY BE IN ORDER TO KEEP IT IN EXISTENCE,SINCE NOTHING EXIST WITHOUT GOD'S PRESENCE! NO MATTER HOW

    WOULD ALSO GOD BE THE FIRST EVER CREATURE?

    YES OR NO


    Your wording is hard for me to follow. Are you asking if GOD would be a creature because He is IN His first creature?

    No.

    But who do you think WAS the first creature God ever created, Charles? Satan? Michael? Gabriel? Who do YOU think was the first creature.

    #385860
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 30 2014,12:10)
    Jammin,

    What you revealed to be is that some trinitarian translators and commenter are of the religious opinion that John 1:1 is about Christ.  I firmly believe trinitarians and others have that opinion.

    They just do not have a solid case to prove it.


    The first chapter of John's gospel proves it clearly, Kerwin.

    Not just 1:14……… but the entire context of that first chapter.  I mean, the combination of verse 15 (said about “the Word”) with verses 29-30 (where the same thing is said about “Jesus”) is enough to tell you “the Word” is “Jesus”.

    The combination of verse 16 (said about “the Word”) and verse 17 (where the same thing is said about “Jesus”) should tell you that “the Word” is “Jesus”.

    But you've already seen my list that shows how all the things said about “the Word” in John 1 are also said in scripture about “Jesus”, right?

    The fact that you don't want to BELIEVE the plethora of proof in John 1 does not equate to “They just do not have a solid case to prove it”.

    The solid case is there.  You just refuse to believe it for personal reasons.

    Quote (kerwin @ May 30 2014,12:10)
    Those that claim Jesus is a god have a better case as at least it is based on reasoned conjecture even though parts of their reasoning are not written.


    Which parts, Kerwin?  Is Jesus called a god elsewhere in scripture?  YES.  So which part about him being called a god in John 1:1 isn't written?

    #385862
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 30 2014,13:04)
    Mike,

    THE ONLY SPIRIT WHICH IS WITHOUT A BODY IS GOD!

    ALL THE REST HAVE A KIND OF BODY!


    I agree with you that they all have bodies, Charles. But I believe God also has one.

    #385863
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 31 2014,08:42)
    Kerwin,

    JESUS, THE ONE WHO WAS TEMPTED, WAS IN THE NATURE OF MAN SON OF MAN WHEN HE WAS TEMPTED!


    Charles,

    The words you just wrote equate to: Jesus was NOT God while he was on earth.

    Is that what you believe?

    #385866
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2014,00:10)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 30 2014,12:10)
    Jammin,

    What you revealed to be is that some trinitarian translators and commenter are of the religious opinion that John 1:1 is about Christ.  I firmly believe trinitarians and others have that opinion.

    They just do not have a solid case to prove it.


    The first chapter of John's gospel proves it clearly, Kerwin.

    Not just 1:14……… but the entire context of that first chapter.  I mean, the combination of verse 15 (said about “the Word”) with verses 29-30 (where the same thing is said about “Jesus”) is enough to tell you “the Word” is “Jesus”.

    The combination of verse 16 (said about “the Word”) and verse 17 (where the same thing is said about “Jesus”) should tell you that “the Word” is “Jesus”.

    But you've already seen my list that shows how all the things said about “the Word” in John 1 are also said in scripture about “Jesus”, right?

    The fact that you don't want to BELIEVE the plethora of proof in John 1 does not equate to “They just do not have a solid case to prove it”.

    The solid case is there.  You just refuse to believe it for personal reasons.

    Quote (kerwin @ May 30 2014,12:10)
    Those that claim Jesus is a god have a better case as at least it is based on reasoned conjecture even though parts of their reasoning are not written.


    Which parts, Kerwin?  Is Jesus called a god elsewhere in scripture?  YES.  So which part about him being called a god in John 1:1 isn't written?


    Mike,

    You claim that but you claim is not believable as your case is built on what you want instead of what is.

    #385885
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,June 01 2014,04:49][/quote]

    Quote
    But who do you think WAS the first creature God ever created, Charles?  Satan?  Michael?  Gabriel?  Who do YOU think was the first creature.

    Mike,

    I ALREADY TOLD YOU WHO!

    LUCIFER WAS THE FIRST EVER CREATURE !

    THE FACT THAT HIS NAME SIGNIFY THE LIGHT OF THE MORNING! WHICH MEANS THAT AS THE LIGHT OF THE MORNING IS THE BEGINNING OF THE DAY, LUCIFER THE LIGHT, WISDOM,  THE FEMALE FACTORIS THE BEGINNING OF CREATION

    GOD 'S FIRST EVER ABODE!

    BELIEVE IT OR NOT!

    LUCIFER THEREFORE WAS CREATED EQUAL WITH GOD ALMIGHTY!

    THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WAS THAT LUCIFER WAS SUBJECT TO GOD!

    LUCIFER FUNCTIONED ONLY WITH THE ACTUAL PRESENCE OF GOD WITHIN!

    GOD CREATED ALL THE HEAVENLY BEINGS UP TO A CERTAIN TIME THROUGH LUCIFER

    NOW!

    WAS GOD CREATED?

    SINCE GOD WAS ALSO THE FIRST BORN OF LUCIFER THROUGH HIS OWN SELF WITHIN?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #385905
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    Yep.  One is “God”, and the other is God's “Son”, ie: not “God Himself”.  

    Mike,

    YES AND HOW!

    Ephissians1:2 Grace be to you, and peace

    ……….FROM  God the Father, and FROM  the Lord Jesus Christ.

    3 Blessed by THE God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, …………

    MIKE THIS TIME IT IS SHORT!

    I HOPE YOU ARE NOT SHORT AS WELL FROM YOUR WISDOM!

    CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOD ALMIGHTY IN Ephissians1:2

    AND

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST IN Ephissians1:3

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #385906
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2014,12:18)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2014,00:10)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 30 2014,12:10)
    Jammin,

    What you revealed to be is that some trinitarian translators and commenter are of the religious opinion that John 1:1 is about Christ.  I firmly believe trinitarians and others have that opinion.

    They just do not have a solid case to prove it.


    The first chapter of John's gospel proves it clearly, Kerwin.

    Not just 1:14……… but the entire context of that first chapter.  I mean, the combination of verse 15 (said about “the Word”) with verses 29-30 (where the same thing is said about “Jesus”) is enough to tell you “the Word” is “Jesus”.

    The combination of verse 16 (said about “the Word”) and verse 17 (where the same thing is said about “Jesus”) should tell you that “the Word” is “Jesus”.

    But you've already seen my list that shows how all the things said about “the Word” in John 1 are also said in scripture about “Jesus”, right?

    The fact that you don't want to BELIEVE the plethora of proof in John 1 does not equate to “They just do not have a solid case to prove it”.

    The solid case is there.  You just refuse to believe it for personal reasons.

    Quote (kerwin @ May 30 2014,12:10)
    Those that claim Jesus is a god have a better case as at least it is based on reasoned conjecture even though parts of their reasoning are not written.


    Which parts, Kerwin?  Is Jesus called a god elsewhere in scripture?  YES.  So which part about him being called a god in John 1:1 isn't written?


    Mike,

    You claim that but you claim is not believable as your case is built on what you want instead of what is.


    Really?  Okay, then show me.

    Show me how verse 15 DOESN'T apply certain words John the Baptist said to “the Word”.

    Show me how verses 29-30 DON'T apply those very same words to “Jesus”.

    Show me how grace DIDN'T come through “the Word” in verse 16………. and how grace DIDN'T come through “Jesus” in verse 17.

    Show me these things, Kerwin.  Show me how these things are in the scripture solely because I WANT them to be there.

    Also, I await your response to the second part of my post…… the part about Jesus being called a god in various scriptures.

    I get TIRED of you running around posting that the things I teach “aren't in scripture”……. but then running AWAY when I ask you to support what you claimed against me.

    You need to either back up the things you say with PROOF, or don't say them in the first place.

    You now have an assignment:

    1.  Show me how my DESIRE is what allows those scriptural words be in John 1.

    2.  Show me why my reasoning about Jesus being a god isn't written in scripture.

    #385908
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 31 2014,13:01)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2014,04:49)
    But who do you think WAS the first creature God ever created, Charles?  Satan?  Michael?  Gabriel?  Who do YOU think was the first creature.

    Mike,

    I ALREADY TOLD YOU WHO!

    LUCIFER WAS THE FIRST EVER CREATURE !

    LUCIFER THEREFORE WAS CREATED EQUAL WITH GOD ALMIGHTY!

    THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WAS THAT LUCIFER WAS SUBJECT TO GOD!


    So “Lucifer” was equal to God, but at the same time subject to God?   ???

    Anyway, since you believe “Lucifer” was the first creation of God, could we called him “the beginning of the creation by God”?  YES.

    Could we call him “the firstborn of every creature”?  YES.

    Could we say God created him as the first of His works?  YES.

    My point is if you PICK someone YOU think God created first, all of those things could be SENSIBLY said about that first creation.  In fact, if those things were said about him, it would be accepted by everyone that the REASON those things were said about him was BECAUSE he was the first thing God ever created.

    But in the real world, there are certain people want to believe Jesus existed from eternity.  And other people want to believe Jesus began his existence on earth.  And for these PERSONAL reasons, they don't believe it when those very clear things are said about Jesus.

    #385909
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2014,01:47)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2014,12:18)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 01 2014,00:10)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 30 2014,12:10)
    Jammin,

    What you revealed to be is that some trinitarian translators and commenter are of the religious opinion that John 1:1 is about Christ.  I firmly believe trinitarians and others have that opinion.

    They just do not have a solid case to prove it.


    The first chapter of John's gospel proves it clearly, Kerwin.

    Not just 1:14……… but the entire context of that first chapter.  I mean, the combination of verse 15 (said about “the Word”) with verses 29-30 (where the same thing is said about “Jesus”) is enough to tell you “the Word” is “Jesus”.

    The combination of verse 16 (said about “the Word”) and verse 17 (where the same thing is said about “Jesus”) should tell you that “the Word” is “Jesus”.

    But you've already seen my list that shows how all the things said about “the Word” in John 1 are also said in scripture about “Jesus”, right?

    The fact that you don't want to BELIEVE the plethora of proof in John 1 does not equate to “They just do not have a solid case to prove it”.

    The solid case is there.  You just refuse to believe it for personal reasons.

    Quote (kerwin @ May 30 2014,12:10)
    Those that claim Jesus is a god have a better case as at least it is based on reasoned conjecture even though parts of their reasoning are not written.


    Which parts, Kerwin?  Is Jesus called a god elsewhere in scripture?  YES.  So which part about him being called a god in John 1:1 isn't written?


    Mike,

    You claim that but you claim is not believable as your case is built on what you want instead of what is.


    Really?  Okay, then show me.

    Show me how verse 15 DOESN'T apply certain words John the Baptist said to “the Word”.

    Show me how verses 29-30 DON'T apply those very same words to “Jesus”.

    Show me how grace DIDN'T come through “the Word” in verse 16………. and how grace DIDN'T come through “Jesus” in verse 17.

    Show me these things, Kerwin.  Show me how these things are in the scripture solely because I WANT them to be there.

    Also, I await your response to the second part of my post…… the part about Jesus being called a god in various scriptures.

    I get TIRED of you running around posting that the things I teach “aren't in scripture”……. but then running AWAY when I ask you to support what you claimed against me.

    You need to either back up the things you say with PROOF, or don't say them in the first place.

    You now have an assignment:

    1.  Show me how my DESIRE is what allows those scriptural words be in John 1.

    2.  Show me why my reasoning about Jesus being a god isn't written in scripture.


    Mike,

    How can I show you if you do not want to see?

    I have attempted to do so many times and yet you prefer to think of Jesus as being superior to human beings in his ability to overcome the world. In doing so you weaken your own faith that we can overcome the world even as he did. You are unable to fully believe he was tempted by even as thoroughly as any man but chose not to sin because his faith was enough to bring him near to God and God because of his nearness God gave him the Holy Spirit to live by.

    When you truly believe that then you will know Jesus did not have to be an angel or any other being but a human being to overcome the desires of the flesh and that he is willing to teach you to do likewise by the Holy Spirit.

    #385911
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2014,13:58)
    Mike,

    How can I show you if you do not want to see?


    Start with the John 1 verses I listed, Kerwin.

    Show me how John said very particular words about “the  Word” in verse 15, said those SAME words about “Jesus” in verses 29-30, but “the Word” ISN'T “Jesus”.

    Show me how grace came to us through “the Word” in verse 16, grace came to us through “Jesus” in verse 17, but “the Word” ISN'T “Jesus”.

    Show me how Jesus ISN'T called a god in other scriptures, and can therefore NOT be called a god in John 1:1.

    But more importantly, show me how MY BELIEF in these things makes it clear that my understanding is “not written in scripture”.  THAT is the main one, Kerwin.  Just because YOU don't understand certain scriptures the way I do is no reason for you to EVER say MY understanding is “not written” – because EVERYTHING I preach on this site was learned DIRECTLY FROM scripture.

    #385915
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 31 2014,13:58)
    ………you prefer to think of Jesus as being superior to human beings in his ability to overcome the world.  In doing so you weaken your own faith that we can overcome the world even as he did.


    That describes the PERSONAL WISH that people like you, Gene, Marty, and Nick have.

    You can see from your own very words that you are going into this with the pre-conceived notion that Jesus must be a certain thing, or else stuff is harder for YOU personally.

    Don't you see it, Kerwin?  Your words basically say, BECAUSE I believe this and that about Jesus before even reading those scriptures you mentioned, I am FORCED to understand them in a way that aligns with that previous belief.  So no matter how clearly the scripture might teach about Jesus' pre-existence, I won't be able to see it, because I went into those scriptures with my mind already made up for PERSONAL reasons.

    #385918
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Let us start with a statement we agree on.

    1 John 4:7
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is [a]born of God and knows God.
    Footnotes:

    1 John 4:7 Or begotten

    1 John 4:8
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

    1 John 4:16
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has [a]for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
    Footnotes:

    1 John 4:16 Lit in

    Do you still agree that the statement “God is Love” does not mean God is literally love?

    Do you instead believe God has the qualities of love?

Viewing 20 posts - 17,361 through 17,380 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account