John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 17,321 through 17,340 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #385315
    thehappyman
    Participant

    Doesn't Christ mean,The Anointed one of God .?

    #385317
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (thehappyman @ May 29 2014,11:36)
    Doesn't Christ mean,The Anointed one of God .?


    HI HPM

    i DO NOT KNOW ;but i think many have been anointed in different ways for different reasons ,in different ceremony ,but in Jesus case ;being anointed,and being the son of God will only show that he is the true anointed that God his father had promised Moses to send ,

    #385319
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=terraricca,May 29 2014,16:48][/quote]

    Quote
    but in Jesus case ;being anointed,and being the son of God will only show that he is the true anointed that God his father had promised Moses to send ,

    thehappyman and Terraricca,

    WE ALL KNOW WHAT WAS USED ON ALL  THOSE HUMANS WHO WERE ANOINTED, ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES,

    NOW:

    WHAT DID THE FATHER USE TO ANNOINT HIS SON WITH?

    DID HE USE OIL?

    OR

    DID HE USE THE HOLY SPIRIT ?

    Peace and love on Jesus

    Charles

    #385329
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,May 29 2014,11:19][/quote]

    Quote
    What if I called Him “my God” four times?  Would that also tell you that I am in the glory of the Father?

    Mike,

    I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE

    BUT I DO KNOW WHO JESUS CHRIST IS!

    JESUS CHRIST WAS THE GODHEAD IN FLESH

    OR:

    THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT,

    ALL IN ONE FLESH BODY OF JESUS AS SON OF MAN, AND SON OF GOD

    NOW THROUGH HIS GLORIFICATION JESUS' FLESH BODY GLORIFIED AND BECAME BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH ON EARTH, AND FOR FORTY DAYS HE MANIFESTED THE FULL POWER OF GOD

    JESUS CHRIST IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER!

    SO THE FATHER    ONE SPIRIT

    THE SON               ONE SPIRIT

    THE HOLY SPIRIT   ONE SPIRIT

    PLUS

    JESUS CHRIST'S FLESH BODY ALSO   ONE SPIRIT

    THAT WOULD BE:

    THE GODHEAD IN BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH

    THE DEITY GLORIFIED!

    ONLY IN:

    JESUS CHRIST AS:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    NOW THOSE FOUR PRONOUNCEMENTS BY JESUS CHRIST

    ARE A REFERENCE TO HIMSELF ,

    AND TO HIS OWN PARTICULAR UNIQUE GOD WHO ONLY HIMSELF SHED HIS BLOOD FOR AND WAS UNITED WITH THE DEITY WHILE ON EARTH!

    AND IT IS HIS OWN,

    AND ONLY HE IS THE ONLY GOD OVER ALL CREATION!

    THE FATHER MADE HIM THE HEIR OF ALL WHAT WAS HIS!

    AND ONE CAN ONLY BE  AN HEIR, IF THE OWNER, IN ANY WAY,  IS NO MORE IN FUNCTION

    AND FOR SURE AN HEIR FOR EVER

    TILL THE SON PASS IT ONTO THE FATHER ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD!

    NOW ANSWER:

    WAS JESUS CHRIST IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER WHEN HE LEFT THE WORLD!

    WOULD JESUS CHRIST BE IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER WHEN HE COMES INTO THE WORLD?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #385331
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 29 2014,05:03)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2014,06:17)
    Hi,
    Of course God was in Jesus reconciling the world to Himself[2cor 5.19]
    But God was not in Himself


    Nick…….right brother

    Peace and love to you and yours……………..gene


    Quote
    But God was not in Himself

    Nick,

    NEVERTHELESS

    GOD WAS IN HIMSELF!

    SINCE ONLY HIS OWN GENUINE SPIRIT SUBSTANCE IS ACCEPTABLE, AND SUITABLE WHO ALSO WAS IN HIMSELF!

    HIS SON

    IN HIS BOSOM!

    THE SON IN THE FATHER

    BEFORE CREATION!

    FROM CREATION ONWARDS

    THE FATHER WAS BOTH IN THE SON! AND ALSO IN HEAVEN!

    AND HE WILL REMAIN SO TILL THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD

    WHEN THE SON WOULD RETAIN HIS ORIGINAL PLACE IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER,

    AND THE FATHER WHO ALWAYS WAS THE FIRST, WOULD BE

    THE LAST OF THE DEITY TO OWN FOR THE FIRST TIME  JESUS CHRIST'S GLORIFIED BODY,

    WHO, FROM THE OTHER HAND WAS THE FIRST TO OWN HIS GLORIFIED BODY! AND THE LAST TO EVER OWNED IT!

    THERE ARE MANY THAT ARE FIRST AND BECOME LAST, AND LAST THAT BECOME FIRST………………

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #385349
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ May 29 2014,11:58)
    [quote=terraricca,May 29 2014,16:48][/quote]

    Quote
    but in Jesus case ;being anointed,and being the son of God will only show that he is the true anointed that God his father had promised Moses to send ,

    thehappyman and Terraricca,

    WE ALL KNOW WHAT WAS USED ON ALL  THOSE HUMANS WHO WERE ANOINTED, ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES,

    NOW:

    WHAT DID THE FATHER USE TO ANNOINT HIS SON WITH?

    DID HE USE OIL?

    OR

    DID HE USE THE HOLY SPIRIT ?

    Peace and love on Jesus

    Charles


    charles

    Jesus was the chosen one by God and was send from heaven ,

    so he was special and his father was with him for what he was going to do was his fathers will ,

    #385387
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (thehappyman @ May 29 2014,11:36)
    Doesn't Christ mean,The Anointed one of God .?


    thehappyman,

    I looked it up and it just means anointed. If we translated it to English like it was translated to Koine Greek from Hebrew Jesus would be called Anointed or the equivalent Anointed One. We do not translate his name as Jesus is an English variation of the Koine Greek name we have for him today.

    #385389
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2014,06:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,10:54)
    Jammin,

    In John 1:1 I have some agreement with those trinitarians that believe the word is God is a qualitative statement.  I disagree on what qualities of God it is speaking of and do not assume the word is Jesus' name in beginning.

    Some do believe it is a lower case gee while others a high case gee as a result of their bias.


    And why don't YOU believe the Word is Jesus in that verse, Kerwin?

    Could that ALSO be because of “bias”?  

    Never mind – I already know the answer to that one.  :)


    Mike,

    You should as my bias is that I believe that Jesus is a human being who served as an example and more for those that seek first his righteousness and his kingdom.

    #385394
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2014,23:19)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2014,06:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,10:54)
    Jammin,

    In John 1:1 I have some agreement with those trinitarians that believe the word is God is a qualitative statement.  I disagree on what qualities of God it is speaking of and do not assume the word is Jesus' name in beginning.

    Some do believe it is a lower case gee while others a high case gee as a result of their bias.


    And why don't YOU believe the Word is Jesus in that verse, Kerwin?

    Could that ALSO be because of “bias”?  

    Never mind – I already know the answer to that one.  :)


    Mike,

    You should as my bias is that I believe that Jesus is a human being who served as an example and more for those that seek first his righteousness and his kingdom.


    K

    if Jesus was a common man we all have waist our time because scriptures says that NO MAN CAN SAVE ANOTHER AND PAY TO GOD THE RANSOM FOR HIS LIFE OR FOR ANOTHER MEN

    ALL HAVE SIN AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD,

    NO ONE UNDER THE CURSE OF DEAD FROM ADAM CAN SAVE ANYONE ;

    #385395
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ May 29 2014,23:45)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2014,23:19)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2014,06:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,10:54)
    Jammin,

    In John 1:1 I have some agreement with those trinitarians that believe the word is God is a qualitative statement.  I disagree on what qualities of God it is speaking of and do not assume the word is Jesus' name in beginning.

    Some do believe it is a lower case gee while others a high case gee as a result of their bias.


    And why don't YOU believe the Word is Jesus in that verse, Kerwin?

    Could that ALSO be because of “bias”?  

    Never mind – I already know the answer to that one.  :)


    Mike,

    You should as my bias is that I believe that Jesus is a human being who served as an example and more for those that seek first his righteousness and his kingdom.


    K

    if Jesus was a common man we all have waist our time because scriptures says that NO MAN CAN SAVE ANOTHER AND PAY TO GOD THE RANSOM FOR HIS LIFE OR FOR ANOTHER MEN

    ALL HAVE SIN AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD,

    NO ONE UNDER THE CURSE OF DEAD FROM ADAM CAN SAVE ANYONE ;


    T,

    I am not going to argue with you about your interpretation of Psalms 49:7 as you should know by this time that I disagree with it.

    I do know that according to what Paul states to the Romans in chapter 3 verse 19 that what the law says it says to those under the law.  According to that same chapter of Romans verses 9-18 all sin under the law.  

    So my question is that was Jesus who who was born of woman and born under the Law,Galatians 4:4, under the law or led by the Spirit?

    Galatians 5:18
    New International Version (NIV)

    18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

    #385398
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    Jesus was the chosen one by God and was send from heaven ,

    so he was special and his father was with him for what he was going to do was his fathers will ,

    TERRARICCA,

    THE ABOVE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I ASKED!

    ARE YOU AFRAID TO ANSWER?

    THIS WAS MY QUESTION:

    WHAT DID THE FATHER USE TO ANNOINT HIS SON WITH?

    DID HE USE OIL?

    OR

    DID HE USE THE HOLY SPIRIT ?

    SO WHICH OF THE ABOVE IS RIGHT?

    AND WHY?

    Peace and love on Jesus

    Charles

    #385405
    carmel
    Participant

    Mike,

    NOW SHOW ME YOUR WISDOM, AND EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE PROCLAMATIONS BY PAUL WHICH HE PRONOUNCED PURPOSELY:

    ONE AFTER THE OTHER

    IN ORDER TO REVEAL THE TRUTH ?

    Ephissians 1: Grace be to you, and peace from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    DEFINITELY A CLEAR  REFERENCE TO TWO SEPARATE PERSONS SEPARATED BY A COMMA, AND WITH THE IMPLICATION OF THE WORD “FROM”! TO  THEIR RESPECTIVE TITLES

    IN THIS CASE GOD ALMIGHTY, AND JESUS CHRIST!

    NOW READ THIS:

    3Blessed by

    the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places, in Christ: OBVIOUS CHRIST BELONG TO JESUS! NOT TO GOD ALMIGHTY, AND THE BLESSINGS ARE ALSO IN CHRIST, AND BY CHRIST SINCE ALL IN HIM, AND ALL BY HIM

    HE DIED FOR US!

    NOT GOD ALMIGHTY!

    NOW!

    WHY DIDN’T HE SAY:

    : BLESSED BY God the Father, and BY the Lord Jesus Christ……

    LIKE HE DID WITH THE FIRST ONE?

    WHAT MADE HIM CHANGE IT TO THE WAY IT IS?

    ALSO

    THE ARTICLE , “THE”,

    NO COMMAS,

    AND THE PREPOSITION “OF”

    ARE  CLEAR INDICATIONS THAT IT IS A REFERENCE TO A PARTICULAR UNIQUE GOD AND ONLY RELATED TO JESUS CHRIST

    SO JESUS CHRIST IS BOTH GOD AND FATHER TO US! FLESH BEINGS! THROUGH HIS DEATH!

    SO I REPEAT:

    THAT IS NOT  A REFERENCE  TO TWO SEPARATE PERSONS OF:

    GOD ALMIGHTY! AND JESUS CHRIST

    BUT TO

    THE GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #385469
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2014,11:00)

    Quote (jammin @ May 28 2014,06:49)
    those who have ENOUGH knowledge about greek will not translate john 1.1 as god but God.


    Those who know Greek will tell you that both “THE god”, and “A god” are possible translations.

    The Greek language allows for either one in that verse.

    So the fact that the Trinitarians OPT FOR the “God” translation has nothing to do with the Greek language, jammin.  It has to do with bias and lack of understanding.

    I mean really, how can our ONE God be WITH our ONE God?  It's absolutely ludicrous.

    But at any rate, don't ever say that the Greek language makes the decision for anyone.  Because even the staunchest Trinitarian experts will tell you that “a god” is also a possible way to translate those Greek words.


    those are not well knowledgeable about the greek language or they will tell you that that translation is not gramatically favoured.

    do you understand what i am saying?

    john 1.1 should not be translated as a god because that will destroy the context of the chapter 1 of john.

    NWT translated is as a god but they are not being honest. it is a bias translation because the greek kai theos in 2cor 3.1 was translated as the “God” and not a god. they put a god in john 1.1 in order for them to support their fairy tale doctrine which is not fair and you will notice this if you studied greek language. only a moron can accept their explanation and doctrine.

    let me post the greek of 2 cor 3.1
    ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΡΙΝΘΙΟΥΣ Β΄ 1:3
    ευλογητος ο θεος και πατηρ του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου ο πατηρ των οικτιρμων και θεος πασης παρακλησεως

    and the NWT
    3  Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,+ the Father of tender mercies+ and the God of all comfort

    you will notice that this NWT translators will never put the small “god” there but if you will follow what they did in john 1.1, it should be translated as “god” and not “God”.

    In the Greek in John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, “ho kurios mou, kai ho theos mou,” “The Lord of me, and the God of me.” If Jesus was not God, but “a” god, then shouldn't Jesus have corrected Thomas?  Shouldn't Jesus have said, “No,Thomas, I am not the God.  I am a god.”?  But Jesus did not.  To do so would have been ludicrous.

    sorry boy but you need to study more. hahahaha

    #385470
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ May 30 2014,00:23)

    Quote
    Jesus was the chosen one by God and was send from heaven ,

    so he was special and his father was with him for what he was going to do was his fathers will ,

    TERRARICCA,

    THE ABOVE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I ASKED!

    ARE YOU AFRAID TO ANSWER?

    THIS WAS MY QUESTION:

    WHAT DID THE FATHER USE TO ANNOINT HIS SON WITH?

    DID HE USE OIL?

    OR

    DID HE USE THE HOLY SPIRIT ?

    SO WHICH OF THE ABOVE IS RIGHT?

    AND WHY?

    Peace and love on Jesus

    Charles


    charles

    God ,uses three things ;the reconciliation waters ,the holy spirit (form of a dove) and his words said at the time ,

    this will answer your question

    #385472
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 30 2014,00:00)

    Quote (terraricca @ May 29 2014,23:45)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 29 2014,23:19)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2014,06:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 28 2014,10:54)
    Jammin,

    In John 1:1 I have some agreement with those trinitarians that believe the word is God is a qualitative statement.  I disagree on what qualities of God it is speaking of and do not assume the word is Jesus' name in beginning.

    Some do believe it is a lower case gee while others a high case gee as a result of their bias.


    And why don't YOU believe the Word is Jesus in that verse, Kerwin?

    Could that ALSO be because of “bias”?  

    Never mind – I already know the answer to that one.  :)


    Mike,

    You should as my bias is that I believe that Jesus is a human being who served as an example and more for those that seek first his righteousness and his kingdom.


    K

    if Jesus was a common man we all have waist our time because scriptures says that NO MAN CAN SAVE ANOTHER AND PAY TO GOD THE RANSOM FOR HIS LIFE OR FOR ANOTHER MEN

    ALL HAVE SIN AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD,

    NO ONE UNDER THE CURSE OF DEAD FROM ADAM CAN SAVE ANYONE ;


    T,

    I am not going to argue with you about your interpretation of Psalms 49:7 as you should know by this time that I disagree with it.

    I do know that according to what Paul states to the Romans in chapter 3 verse 19 that what the law says it says to those under the law.  According to that same chapter of Romans verses 9-18 all sin under the law.  

    So my question is that was Jesus who who was born of woman and born under the Law,Galatians 4:4, under the law or led by the Spirit?

    Galatians 5:18
    New International Version (NIV)

    18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


    K

    first ,yes I know what you believe from Isi;49;7

    but let it be in our mind anyway

    and please give me understanding from Christ within the OT because after all as you say CHRIST WAS BORN UNDER THE LAW BUT HE ALSO DIE UNDER THE LAW ;

    NOW ALL THE SCRIPTURES YOU QUOTED ARE FOR THE BELIEVERS THAT FOLLOWED CHRIST ,

    SO TO TALK ABOUT CHRIST WHO HE IS AND WERE AND HOW HE AT TO COME IS IN THE O.T,

    PAUL PICKED HIS KNOWLEDGE IN THE O.T

    AND ALSO REMEMBER THE LAW STAND AGAINST THE SINNERS NOT AGAINST THE INNOCENT, SO HERE WE TALKING ABOUT THE RELIGIOUS LAWS

    #385473
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2014,11:11)

    Quote (jammin @ May 28 2014,06:54)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 28 2014,12:12)

    Colossians 1:15 King James Version
    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Okay….. done.


    that version did not say created but firstborn of every creature.


    Well, if it said “firstborn of every COW”, then we would know he was the first COW ever made.

    If it said, “firstborn of every MAN”, then we would know he was the first MAN ever made.

    And so on, and so on.  So “firstborn of every CREATURE” obviously means he was the first CREATURE ever made.

    Quote (jammin @ May 28 2014,06:54)
    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    the firstborn of every creature; not the first of the creation, or the first creature God made; for all things in Colossians 1:16 are said to be created by him, and therefore he himself can never be a creature;


    That's a popular, but false conclusion, jammin.  Because scripture also says GOD created EVERYTHING.  And if we were to take that literally, it would mean God created HIMSELF as well.

    So when scripture says God created the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them, we know that it means EXCEPT for God Himself.

    Likewise, when Paul says in 1 Cor 15:27 that God place EVERYTHING under Jesus, we know it means everything EXCEPT God Himself.  (In this scripture, Paul even explains that to his readers, in case any of them are like you, and couldn't figure that much out all by themselves.)

    So, when it says all things in heaven and earth were made THROUGH (not “BY”) Jesus, it means everything EXCEPT for Jesus himself.

    Get it?  God didn't create HIMSELF……… but He created all OTHER things in heaven.

    God didn't create Jesus through HIMSELF…….. but he created all OTHER things through Jesus.

    And the teaching of Col 1:15-16 is really all one long statement, which means:  Jesus HAS TO BE the first one created, BECAUSE all the other things in heaven were created THROUGH him.


    of course you should not take it (God created all things)literally because God never created himself.
    i do not know if you have a common sense mike. if i say i created this computer, does it mean that i created myself as well? hahaha you are a moron.

    therefore, it is not also acceptable to treat col 1.15 literally. why? because according to the context, Christ created the heaven and the earth.

    Hebrews 1:10

    Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

    [b]10 God also said,

    “O Lord, in the beginning you made the earth,
    and your hands made the sky.

    it was through him that every thing was made[/b]

    COL 1 PHILLIPS
    15-16 Now Christ is the visible expression of the invisible God. He existed before creation began, for it was through him that every thing was made, whether spiritual or material, seen or unseen

    the meaning of that “firstborn of all creation” according to the context is, he is supreme over all creation. it never tells us that christ was created by God. in verse 16 it said that all things were created by him!

    no commentaries and bible versions will agree to your fairy tale doctrine mike. hahaha sorry boy!

    #385474
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (thehappyman @ May 28 2014,23:36)
    Doesn't Christ mean,The Anointed one of God .?


    Both the Hebrew word “messiah”, and the Greek word “christ”, mean “anointed (one)”.

    #385475
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2014,11:17)

    Quote (jammin @ May 28 2014,06:55)
    mike said :
    Jesus is not God

    bingo!


    Why, thank you for agreeing with me that Jesus is NOT God.  :)

    (How do YOU like it when people butcher your post to make it seem like you believe things you really don't?)


    to copy and paste not the whole thing is your expertise. hahaha

    mike said:Christ is not God

    mike also said:Christ is equal to God in essence.

    now, what is the essence of God? i need complete answers.

    #385476
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 28 2014,23:58)
    WE ALL KNOW WHAT WAS USED ON ALL THOSE HUMANS WHO WERE ANOINTED, ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES,

    NOW:

    WHAT DID THE FATHER USE TO ANNOINT HIS SON WITH?

    DID HE USE OIL?

    OR

    DID HE USE THE HOLY SPIRIT ?


    Most of those other christs and messiahs in scripture were also anointed with Holy Spirit, Charles. David, Moses, Samuel, etc.

    Also, Jesus was anointed with “the oil of gladness” by his and our God, Jehovah.

    And he was also anointed a couple of times in scripture with perfumed oil.

    #385477
    jammin
    Participant

    T

    you posted a version that says Christ is God. have you forgotten that? hahaha

    Kerwin,

    i do not need to repeat myself. it is enough for me to show you a WORD FOR WORD TRANSLATION that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ and not what you think. you cant win a case without any supporting documents. you are a lawyer that should have no case hahaha

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