John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 121 through 140 (of 25,987 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #4964
    Anonymous
    Guest

    T8, many thanks,
    I shall follow your advice and read…. (and, won't worry about what to pack anymore). I do mean, many thanks.

    #4968
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    OK.  One last quick response before I hop in the car!

    Nick,

    Quote
    The first scripture above tells us both are to be used but the NT interprets the OT.

    Then could you please tell me what the noble Bereans were using to verify Paul's doctrine?

    Quote
    As i pointed out Jesus did not raise himself so that scripture has to be interpreted according to what did happen.

    As I pointed out, the plain language of John's gospel says something different than everything else in scripture.  Can you explain why?

    T8,

    Glad to see you back.  Unfortunately it's just as I am taking a short leave.

    Quote
    Jesus partook of the flesh, he is not the flesh itself. It also says that all things were made through him. So if Jesus was created, then he was made through Jesus. It doesn't make sense.

    I am glad that you bring this up.  What exactly does it mean to create something through somebody else?  Does it mean, by your understanding, that “Jesus” actually did the work of creation, and God only commanded it?  In other words, “Jesus” hung the stars in place, laid the foundation of the world, and created life where there was none before, God only told him “how to do it”?

    Bear in mind:

    Psalm 8:
    “3 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?”

    Nick and T8,

    I beg you both to plainly declare your faith.  Either stand by the statement, “I serve two gods”, or reject it.  If you do reject it, I would like to know why, since you both believe that “Jesus” is a god by his initial birth, and was only temporarily a man.  But if that is your faith, please just say so plainly.

    I look forward to chatting with you guys again when I get back!

    #4970
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WIT,
    The Bereans did not have the New Testament so how can your question have any relevance to the issue? Yet they were able to grasp the truth about Jesus from their own study of the OT. They would put us all to shame if they had the advantage of the Spirit and the NT as well to work with.

    I gave you 7 scriptures in Acts alone sayng the Father raised Jesus. Jesus, himself, prophesised that he would “BE raised up on the third day” If you search the letters of Paul you will find at least 12 more saying the same as well as several saying he “was raised” You will find no scriptures saying Jesus raised himself, this fact is plastered all over the New Testament-there are few more clearly established matters in the bible than that Jesus would be raised by his Father. Do you agree? So , in the light of this fact you have to go back to John 2.19 and try to understand it in the light of what DID happen, as I have already explained.
    What should we do if we cannot grasp it's meaning? Reject the verse? Reject the chapter or perhaps the whole gospel of John? I think not. It would be better to put it back in the storehouse and wait for the Spirit who wrote it to expand our puny minds so we can understand it.

    Your repeated demand that we agree with your view of Jesus and his Father shows that you have not yet understood the scripture about the vine WIT.
    Jn 15f
    ” I AM the true vine and my Father is the vinegrower. He prunes away every barren branch but the fruitful ones he trims clean to increase their yield. You are clean already thanks to the word I have spoken to you.
    LIVE ON IN me, as I do in you . No more than a branch can bear fruit of itself apart from the vine can you bear fruit apart from me.
    I am the vine, you are the branches. He who LIVES IN me and I in him will produce abundantly but apart from me you can do nothing. A man who does not live in me is like a withered branch picked up to be thrown in the fire and burnt.
    If you LIVE IN me and my words stay part of you, you may ask what you will -it will be done for you. My Father has been glorified in your bearing much fruit and becoming my disciples..”

    How can a branch worship the vine of which it is a part?
    Anyone who thinks that Jesus came to be worshipped alone or to be worshipped in a trinity has not understood the gospel. He came to offer useless dead wood the chance to join with him in the vine that worships and glorifies his Father and escape the fire that is the alternative destiny of that wood.
    The vine serves and brings glory to the vinegrower, the Father.
    The branch serves the vine to serve the vinegrower.
    The branch lives in harmony with the vine both working towards the same purpose with the vine being more important than the branch which can be pruned away. No one has any part of that work until it becomes part of the vine by grafting. Without that grafting onto the vine it is useless and destined for the fire.
    No branch grafted into the vine will remain there unless it allows the sap of the Spirit flow through it and produce growth and fruit. It will also not grow leaves that can photosynthesise and produce sugars that flow back into and support the whole vine.
    Every branch joined to the vine is later trimmed because it will always overdo the growth and hinder the ripening of the fruit.
    No branch can guarantee that it will remain on the vine unless it proves useful to the vine and the vinegrower.

    #4971
    NickHassan
    Participant

    WIT ,
    There are plenty of scriptures sayng God alone is responsible for creation. But several in the NT confirm that nothing was created except through Jesus. There is no conflict here. God is enthroned in Heaven and he uses others as his agents of all His work.Jesus is the Agent of all the work of God's creation.
    As someone said George Bush invaded Iraq, but did he? No his soldiers did but as commander of the armed forces he invaded through his army. He takes responsibilty for the decision he made to send them and wins the glory or shame for the result.

    Did David defeat all his enemies? Yes. But he too did it through his armies and his greatly trusted commanders. Did God test Job? Yes. But he used Satan as the agent for that testing. Did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Yes. But study of the detail shows us angels did the destroying. Do the eyes of God range all over the earth? Yes but it is the work of His agents,the angels to observe and record the actions of men on earth. Did God give Moses the Ten Commandments? Yes but scripture tells us they were given through angels.

    Jesus as the firstborn and only begotten Son of God was instrumental in creating angels and men and placing the moon and stars in their place according to the Word of God.

    Yet who gives him the respect he is due for his mighty works?

    #4973
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 19 2004,14:04)
    Nick and T8,

    I beg you both to plainly declare your faith.  Either stand by the statement, “I serve two gods”, or reject it.  If you do reject it, I would like to know why, since you both believe that “Jesus” is a god by his initial birth, and was only temporarily a man.  But if that is your faith, please just say so plainly.


    To WIT,

    There are many gods and many lords, but for me there is but one God the Father. I stand by this statement.

    I also teach the following:
    There are many who have God's nature including Jesus and even the angels/sons of God (ben eloyhim). But there is only one God in identity, the Father. This one true God shares his nature and those who receive his nature can be called gods, sons or images.

    John 10:34-35
    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, “I said, “You are gods”'? (theos)
    35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

    Psalm 82:6
    6 “I said, 'You are “gods”; (eloyhim)
       you are all sons of the Most High.'

    Genesis 1:26
    Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,

    Colossians 1:15
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    2 Peter 1:4
    Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

    So as you can see, I recognise that there are many gods/sons, but I worship one God as the Most High God from whom all good things come. I also recognise that he is the source of all sons/gods, so in that sense he is the one true God, (original God). The sons of God are images of the true God as opposed to false gods.

    #4981
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Wit,
    Psalm 8 speaks of Jesus as “Son of Man” so is speaking prophetically about his human existence-lower then than the angels- but then later crowned with glory and ruler of all after his victory in death.
    It is quoted in Hebrews 2 but only after establishing his glorious original existence as “Son of God” who made the world and upholds all things by the word of his power in Hebrews 1.

    #4982
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    When Jesus ascended where did he go? The apostles saw him go up into 'the heavens' but we know from scripture he went to 'heaven' where he is now seated at the right hand of his Father. We do not follow him there though we are now already with him in his Spirit there[Coll3.1-3]
    We do not go to heaven. No scripture says we do.The new Jerusalem is on the new earth as Rev 21 tell us and there we hope to dwell with God.

    Jn 14.23 “We will come to him and make our dwelling place with him”

    Jesus also said ” where I go you cannot come”

    Not only did he go to heaven to his Father, as did Elijah and Enoch, but he said he would go back to where he came from, to the glory he had with the Father before the world began. He is more unique than any man.
    What do others think?

    #5020
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 19 2004,14:04)
    I am glad that you bring this up. What exactly does it mean to create something through somebody else? Does it mean, by your understanding, that “Jesus” actually did the work of creation, and God only commanded it? In other words, “Jesus” hung the stars in place, laid the foundation of the world, and created life where there was none before, God only told him “how to do it”?

    Bear in mind:

    Psalm 8:
    “3 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?”


    To WIT,

    Ephesians 2:10
    For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

    Yes it is God who created all things. Just as it is God who saves sinners, even if he does it through the preaching of an Evangelist.

    #5058
    liljon
    Participant

    Jesus is God Almighty
    He forgave sin
    Created the world and claimed to be him in John 8:58

    #5059
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Liljon,
    If Jesus is God almighty then how can he also be the Son of God? Jesus prayed to God and told us to do the same. Was he really praying to himself and asking us to do the same? Was he saying the Father does not exist separate from him? No.

    Jn 8.58″ I solemnly declare it.:before Abraham came to be I am”
    Does that say Jesus IS Almighty God. No it says he existed before Abraham. Is that a problem? No. Did any beings exist before Abraham. Yes the Son of God and the other sons [and angels]as shown in Jb ch 1,2 and 38
    Jn 1 1-3
    ” In the beginning was the Word and the Word was in God's presence and the Word was God. He was present to God in the beginning .Through him all things came into being and apart from him nothing came to be”
    The Word or Logos is Jesus prior to his partaking of a body and he is shown again as the leader of the armies of heaven who comes as shepherd of the nations in Rev 19.11f

    So the Son of God was with God in the beginning, and all of God's creation is the work of the Son of God.If he was with God then he cannot be that God.
    Genesis1.1 says God created the world but as you see in Jn 1 Jesus was the agent of that work.
    Jesus forgave sins but he also gave his apostles the power to do the same .Does that make them Almighty God too?

    Thsi is not trickery but only showing you what is written.

    #5071
    liljon
    Participant

    God can be both at the same time plus after his ascension he was prayed to
    1 Cor 1
    Acts 7:55-60

    #5072
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi LJ,
    Acts 7,55f re Stephen
    “But being full of the Holy Spirit he gazed intently into heaven and saw the Glory of God,
    AND
    Jesus standing at the right hand of God”

    1Cor 1.9
    ” God is faithful,through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord”

    So there are two in heaven the Father and the Son of God at His right hand.
    We are called into fellowship with the Father by being one with Jesus in his death and resurrection.

    I would hope my spirit too would be joined with Jesus at my passing and would call on him to receive it too.Wouldn't you?

    #5073
    NickHassan
    Participant

    ps jesus spent a lot of his time on earth speaking of his Father and his relationship with Him. He is the image of the Father and was filled with the Spirit of God so could say “whoever has seen me has seen the Father”and “my Father and I are one”.They are one but are separate too. Father and Son.

    #5074
    liljon
    Participant

    You ONLY call upon God in prayer
    “Call upon the name of the Lord” occurs five times in the KJV:
    Gen. 4:26, “And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.”
    “…calling on the name of Jehovah,” (NWT).
    Psalm 116:13, “I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD.”
    “…and on the name of Jehovah I shall call,” (NWT).
    Psalm 116:17, “I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the LORD.”
    “…and on the name of Jehovah I shall call,” (NWT).
    Zeph. 3:9, “For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.”
    “…to call upon the name of Jehovah,” (NWT).
    Romans 10:13, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
    “For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved,” (NWT).
    “Call on the name of the Lord” occurs four times in the KJV
    1 Kings 18:24, “And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God.”
    “…call upon the name of Jehovah,” (NWT).
    2 Kings 5:11, “But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper.”
    “…call upon the name of Jehovah,” (NWT).
    Joel 2:32, “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.”
    “…calls upon the name of Jehovah,” (NWT).
    Acts 2:21, “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
    “…calls upon the name of Jehovah,” (NWT).
    taken from carm.org

    #5076
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi liljon,
    So your premise is that if anyone calls Jesus Lord that proves Jesus is God the Father?I think that is in need of deeper understanding
    1 cor 1.3 “Grace and peace from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ”
    1.9 “God is faithful and it was He who called you to fellowship WITH His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord”
    Both these scriptures speak of God the Father AND our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is our Lord and the Father is his Lord.That is the line of authority.The Father is the Gardener, Jesus is the Vine, we are the branches.
    Jn 1.” Blessed is he who comes in the Name of the Lord” -Jesus comes in the name of his Lord.the Father.

    #5096
    liljon
    Participant

    Jesus is called YHVH not just Lord(Adoni,Kurios)

    #5098
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi liljon,
    Jesus came in the name of YHWH. And as Zech 14 tells us he will come again in the name of his Father. The Spirit of God filled Jesus and still works on earth in the believers.
    But the Father is in heaven from where he observes the actions of men.

    #5109
    liljon
    Participant

    Zechariah says YHWH himself will come

    #5110
    NickHassan
    Participant

    I know liljon but it will be the feet of Jesus standing on the Mount of Olives.He will be returning in the Name of his Father to rule the world. The Father will delegate the work to His Son.

    #5111
    liljon
    Participant

    Because Jesus is YHWH!

Viewing 20 posts - 121 through 140 (of 25,987 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account