John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 15,961 through 15,980 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #373708
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WU,
    They shall soar as with eagles wings
    They shall run and not get weary. run and not faint
    is 40

    #373725
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Nick.

    The Word of God:

    God thinks first: then His Words come out.
    His Word as a whole was given a living form/shape.
    God is a spirit;He can come in any form as He please.

    We humans;can not hear His voice.
    God spoke to the prophets through His living Word.
    God spoke to the apostles and jews through His living Word *made flesh*; named Jesus.

    The living Word will come again as,THE WORD OF GOD.
    There is non else,but God; and **HIS OWN WORD**.
    *His own speech*.
    The HS is in God's Word.
    The Father communed with His Son
    by thought; not vocally. God thinks and Jesus speaks.

    What is truth?
    What comes out of the mouth of God IS TRUTH.
    And the *truth* will set you free.

    wakeup.

    #373730
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    No Charles……………

    If I was going to tell you that God is granting me “eternal life”, do you suppose I could say it this way:  Hey Charles!  God said He was going to grant me Jesus! ?  ???

    Mike,

    IN ADDITION TO MY POST REGARDING THE ABOVE I WANTED TO POST THIS SCRIPTURE!

    2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath delivered US GAVE US ETERNAL LIFE and called us by his holy calling,  BY, AND IN  THE WORD not according to our works,

    BUT ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE, WHICH WAS GIVEN US IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE TIMES OF THE WORLD

    SO I REPEAT:

    GOD GRANTED YOU JESUS, OBVIOUS NOT AS A REDEEMER  HUMAN BEING ONLY! BUT AS

    THE WORD THE ETERNAL LIFE GIVING SPIRIT FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD REV13:8 TO MAINTAIN ETERNAL LIFE WITHIN YOU TILL YOU ARE REDEEMED, NO MATTER  HOW MANY MILLIONS OF YEARS IT WOULD TAKE!

    NOW MY QUESTION:

    DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE WORD IS IN YOU, SINCE

    BEFORE THE TIMES OF THE WORLD?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #373731
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 15 2014,14:57)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 16 2014,06:37)
    Satan was originally created with “JESUS”, but God will soon destroy him.

    Mike,

    SATANA WITHIN HIM HAS THE WORD THE ETERNAL LIFE, OTHERWISE HE WON'T EXIST!


    Charles,

    I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. Let's just suffice to say that Jesus being metaphorically called “the eternal life that was with the Father” does not mean the being of Jesus Christ is literally the abstract notion of eternal life itself.

    He is a being through whom we can gain eternal life. He is not eternal life itself.

    #373733
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 15 2014,16:56)
    …..it is very clear that your question number 1 refers to the father and not the son.


    My question refers to the “God” John mentioned.  John didn't say “Father” or “nature”, jammin.  John only said “God”.  If the Word was with God, then the Word couldn't possibly be God.

    Let me do it the Trinitarian way:  ……the Word was with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and the Word was the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    How does that work for you?  Don't you believe that “God” consists of all three?  So when John says “God”, then it must mean all three, right?  If John didn't MEAN all three of them, then he wouldn't have said “God”.  If he only meant “the Father person of the Godhead”, then he would have SAID “the Father person of the Godhead”.

    If the word “God” automatically includes all three persons, then EVERY TIME someone says “God”, it includes all three persons.  You can't just read “God and Jesus”, and pretend that this time, “God” only refers to the Father.  If “God” means all three, then it ALWAYS means all three.

    Besides, how do you and Wallace come to your conclusion that the “God” the Word was with was “the Father”?  Couldn't it have been “the Holy Spirit person of the Godhead”?  Couldn't it have been the Holy Spirit and the Father?

    So how do you know that the “God” in part b was only the Father?  Where was your Holy Spirit God at the time?  Why isn't that person of the Godhead mentioned in 1:1?

    See?  You guys have many issues with your doctrine.  

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 15 2014,16:56)
    also, your reference told that they have the same nature.

    1956 The Wuest Expanded Translation reads: “In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity”


    I have no problem with that understanding.  Of course, the author of it obviously added his own words and understanding into what John actually wrote, but I agree that Jesus, as the second most powerful being in existence, is clearly “absolute deity”.  He is a god just like his own Father and God is a god.

    I also have no problem with the translation that says, “what God was, the Word was”.  Because after all, what was God?  A powerful spirit being, right?  The Word was also a powerful spirit being.

    At least now you know there have been MANY people who have translated 1:1c as “and the Word was a god”.  It's not just the NWT – although they're the only ones who receive all the false accusations.

    I once saw a list online that showed over 100 different translations through the years that had “and the Word was a god”.  I don't know where I saw it, or if I could find it again.

    So the next time you want to slam the “a god” translation, then slam THE TRANSLATION ITSELF.  Don't make it personal about the NWT, because they are just one of MANY who have “a god” in John 1:1.

    #373734
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 15 2014,17:01)
    kerwin,

    if you say you have the nature of God, then you should be almighty, eternal, you are everywhere, all knowing, etc.

    go back to school boy


    That's like saying if you have human nature, then you should automatically be a mighty warrior like David or Goliath.

    Or that you should automatically be taken up to heaven in a whirlwind like Elijah – just because you and Elijah shared a human nature.

    Solomon was said to have “known all things” concerning the earth. He had human nature. Does that mean that EVERYBODY who has human nature “knows all things”? Of course not.

    You need to think these things out, jammin.

    #373735
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 15 2014,17:35)
    kerwin and mike,

    if you accept that you have the nature of God, then you will become almighty, all powerful, all knowing, unique, omnipresence etc someday. hahahhaha

    what a funny doctrine you have


    jammin,

    God's nature includes “eternal”. We will share that part of His nature. God's nature includes “spirit being”. We will also share that part of God's nature. God's nature includes “divine”. We will also share that part of God's nature.

    But like I showed you in my last post, being a “divine, eternal spirit being” will not EQUATE us with the most powerful and wise “divine, eternal spirit being” – just like sharing a nature with King David doesn't mean we are all mighty warriors, anointed with the Spirit, and kings of a nation.

    Will you tell me that I don't share David's human nature just because I'm not as powerful or wise as he was?

    If not, then you can't tell me I won't share God's nature just because I won't be as powerful and wise as God is.

    #373736
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    Carmel……..Could Adam and Eve also say they proceeded and  came forth from GOD? Did that make them DEVINE?

    Please answer this question as yes or NO ,  now how about Satan could he also say that he come forth and proceed from GOD?, is he DEVINE also?

    Gene,

    WE AS HUMANS, MAKE CHILDREN SO THEY COME FORTH FROM US!

    WE ALSO AS HUMANS MAKE STATUES,HOUSES, AND ALL THE REST! SO THEY ALSO COME FORTH FROM US

    WE ALSO MAKE ALL SORTS OF  CORRUPTION, FORNICATIONS, MURDERS, AND SO ON SO

    EVEN THESE COME FORTH FROM US

    AREN'T ALL OF THE ABOVE  RELATED TO ITS RESPECTIVE  DIFFERENT STATE, ACT, CONDITION AND SO ON   WHEN THEY CAME FORTH FROM US?

    CAN YOU COMPARE IN ANY WAY OUR CHILDREN WHICH CAME FORTH FROM US, WITH ALL WHAT I MENTIONED ABOVE? SINCE ONLY  OUR CHILDREN WERE IN  OUR BOSOM!

    WITH THE SAME ARGUMENT:

    CAN YOU COMPARE IN ANYWAY JESUS, THAT NOT ONLY HIM WAS IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER, BUT HE CONFIRMED HIMSELF THAT ALTHOUGH HE WAS A SON OF MAN, A HUMAN BEING HE WAS IN ALL THINGS OPPOSITE TO US! INCLUDING BOTH HIS BIRTH AND HIS DEATH!

    SATANA, WAS LUCIFER, AND HE  WAS THE FIRST  WHO WAS CREATED, DIRECTLY BY GOD HIMSELF,HE WAS THE FIRST EMBODIMENT OF GOD,

    THEN THROUGH HIM AND BY HIM GOD CREATED ALL, BOTH THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH!

    LUCIFER WAS NEVER A DIVINE BEING SINCE HE WAS CREATED!

    BUT THE ONLY DIVINE BEING LUCIFER HAD WAS THE WORD THE TRIUNE MEDIATOR CREATOR GOD WITHIN HIM TO MAINTAIN HIS ETERNAL LIFE IN ORDER FOR GOD TO MAKE HIM PERFECT AGAIN,EVEN IF IT TAKES ENDLESS TIME!

    THE FACT THAT WE, THE EX REBELLIOUS ANGELS, ALSO HAVE THE WORD ETERNALLY WITHIN US TILL WE REACH PERFECTION!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #373737
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 17 2014,03:12][/quote]

    Quote
    He is a being through whom we can gain eternal life.  He is not eternal life itself.

    Mike,

    DO YOU ACCEPT THAT JESUS IS

    THE ETERNAL LIFE GIVING SPIRIT?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #373738
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2014,21:18)
    Hi,
    There is no evidence that the Word was a separate divine being before being made flesh.
    But it is a popular idea


    These are the things we know:

    1. The Word was with God in the beginning.

    2.  The Word became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.

    Nobody argues against these two points, because nobody CAN argue against them.

    So all we have to do is focus on #2.  We only need to ask ourselves WHO is the ONLY one to ever have dwelled as a flesh being on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.  And there is only ONE answer to that question.

    If “God Almighty Himself” is NOT the one who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son, then the Word was NOT “God Almighty Himself”.

    If “The Holy Spirit” is NOT the one who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son, then the Word was NOT “The Holy Spirit”.

    If “An Abstract Attribute of God” is NOT the one who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son, then the Word was NOT “An Abstract Attribute of God”.

    If “A Literal Word Spoken From God's Mouth” is NOT the one who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son, then the Word was NOT “A Literal Word Spoken From God's Mouth”.

    On the other hand, if “Jesus” WAS the one who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son, then the Word WAS “Jesus”.

    Now, if that easy and logical explanation is not enough for those of you who have PERSONAL WISHES for Jesus to have been nothing but a regular old man like the rest of us, you need only compare the OTHER things John said about “the Word” in the first chapter of his gospel, and see if those same things are said elsewhere in scripture about anyone in particular.  Read on, because I've already done the work for you:

    The italicized words below are things said about “the Word” in John 1.  The scriptures listed in parenthesis identify some of the places in scripture where those same exact things are said about Jesus.

    1.  And the Word was a god:  (Is 9:6, Heb 1:8-9, etc.)

    2.  He was with God in the beginning:  (John 17:5)

    3.  All things were made through him:  (Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2)

    4.  In him was life, and that life was the light of men:  (John 5:26, John 8:12)

    5.  The light shines in the darkness:  (Matthew 4:16; John 3:19; 2 Corinthians 4:6)

    6.  John the Baptist came as a witness to testify concerning that light:  (John 1:29-34; 3:26; 5:32-36)

    7.  The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world:  (Isaiah 42:6-7; John 3:19, 9:5, 12:35-36, 46; Luke 1:78-79)

    8.  Though he was in the world, the world did not recognize him:  (Isaiah 53:3, John 4:10, Acts 13:27, John 12:37-38, 1 John 3:1)

    9.  He came to that which was his own: (Col 1:16; Matt 11:27; John 3:35, 13:3, 16:15; Eph 1:10; Heb 1:2)

    10.  but his own did not receive him:  (Luke 9:53; John 5:43; Acts 13:46)

    11.  to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God:  (Acts 4:12; John 3:14-16; Gal 3:26; Heb 2:10; Eph 1:5)

    12.  The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us:  (1 John 1:1-2, 4:2; Phil 2:6-7; Rom 8:3; Gal 4:4-5)

    13.  We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten:  (John 1:18, 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9)

    14.  who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.:  (John 1:16, 14:6; Luke 2:40; Romans 1:5)

    15.  John testified concerning him.:  (Mark 1:7-8; John 1:32, 34; John 3:26; John 5:32-33; John 10:41)

    16.  He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”:  (John 1:29-30; John 3:28,30; Micah 5:2; Acts 19:4)

    And if that is STILL not enough for you diehards, then pay close attention to the following verses from John 1:

    16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.

    17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

    Up until verse 16, “Jesus” had not been mentioned by name. The subject of verses 1-16 was “the Word”. But in verse 17, we can see John clearly transition from calling this subject “the Word” to calling the same subject “Jesus”.

    Verse 16 tells us that we received grace through “the Word”. And verse 17 tells us that the grace we received came through “Jesus Christ”.

    So if all that other stuff is too much for you to handle, then keep focusing on the transition between verses 16 and 17. This is the point when John begins to call “the Word” he has been talking about “Jesus Christ”.

    #373739
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 16 2014,11:07)
    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 17 2014,03:12][/quote]

    Quote
    He is a being through whom we can gain eternal life.  He is not eternal life itself.

    Mike,

    DO YOU ACCEPT THAT JESUS IS

    THE ETERNAL LIFE GIVING SPIRIT?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles,

    The Father Jehovah, the ONLY God we are to worship and serve as our God, granted Jesus to have eternal life in him. This does not mean that the Father is literally “eternal life itself”.

    After being granted that eternal life from his own God Jehovah, Jesus was given the authority and right to grant that eternal life to any of us that he chooses. Again, this does not mean that Jesus is literally “eternal life itself”.

    #373740
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Nick, jammin, Gene, and all:

    We all seem to agree that the “God” in John 1:1b (the Word was with “God”) is “the Father”.

    But is the “God” in 1:1c (the Word was “God”) also “the Father”?

    YES or NO?

    #373748
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Is the Holy Spirit of God?

    #373757
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Yes. Now answer MY question, Nick. Or admit that you are unable or unwilling to do so.

    #373760
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Is the Father the Son?

    #373765
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Is God in you?

    #373770
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    The Holy Spirit is the finger of God lk 11.20
    The Father is wherever His Spirit is.

    God was in the anointed Jesus

    #373780
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 16 2014,23:26)
    Nick, jammin, Gene, and all:

    We all seem to agree that the “God” in John 1:1b (the Word was with “God”) is “the Father”.

    But is the “God” in 1:1c (the Word was “God”) also “the Father”?

    YES or NO?


    Mike,

    If John 1:1 was translated even more literally than it is then it would go “the word is with the god and the word is god”.  Even without the capitalization it is clear “the god” is Jehovah but the missing “the”  tells us the word is god(divine) in nature. If John wanted to make the point the word was the God he would have simply added “the” in John 1:1c.

    John 1:1-2
    Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB)

    1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with the God.

    So the answer is no.

    #373782
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2014,09:18)
    Hi,
    There is no evidence that the Word was a separate divine being before being made flesh.
    But it is a popular idea


    Nick,

    I agree that those that are too used to the false teachings of either trinitarians and their decendant teaching have not yet fremm from thee lies and deceptions of those teaching. Until they do they will continue to put what they were taught by mere men into the letter of God's word. The thing is that each of us is to watch ourselves less we are doing the same.

    #373784
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 16 2014,05:51)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 16 2014,05:01)
    kerwin,

    divine nature is not the ONLY nature of God. do you understand? if you say you have the nature of God, then you should be almighty, eternal, you are everywhere, all knowing, etc.

    go back to school boy


    Jammin,

    Thank you for answering my question.

    Do your think “image of God” and “form of God” mean the same thing?


    Jammin,

    I bumped this because somehow my words got confused and I corrected them. Please answer. Thank you.

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