John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 15,141 through 15,160 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #365143
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 31 2013,16:24)
    Mike,

    Jesus is the personification of the word of God though he was not before he was conceived in his mother's womb.


    And what is the NAME of the PERSON who was personified as the Word BEFORE Jesus was caused to be born from a woman's womb?

    Who was it BEFORE Jesus became flesh? Because the Word is definitely being personified long before verse 14, right? (Hint: Read verses 6-13, where you can see the Word being personified as the one through whom all things were made, the true light who came into the world, the one who gave us the right to become children of God, and the one about whom John the Baptist came to testify.)

    #365157
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 01 2014,11:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2014,10:49)
    T,

    Quote

    1 [count] a : a person who has a lot of a particular quality and who is the perfect example of someone who has that quality — often + of ▪ Your father is the personification of kindness and generosity. [=he is very kind and generous] ▪ He is the personification of evil.

    I know of not other place where this method of teaching is specifically used but variations of it are used as well as types.


    K

    So it could never be applied on words right ???


    T,

    Wrong as it can be applied to Jesus who has a lot of qualities of the word of God.

    #365159
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2014,02:04)

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 01 2014,11:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2014,10:49)
    T,

    Quote

    1 [count] a : a person who has a lot of a particular quality and who is the perfect example of someone who has that quality — often + of ▪ Your father is the personification of kindness and generosity. [=he is very kind and generous] ▪ He is the personification of evil.

    I know of not other place where this method of teaching is specifically used but variations of it are used as well as types.


    K

    So it could never be applied on words right ???


    T,

    Wrong as it can be applied to Jesus who has a lot of qualities of the word of God.


    k

    you have to prove to us THAT SPOKEN WORDS CAN BECOME FLESH ;IN SCRIPTURES

    #365180
    Wakeup
    Participant

    His name was JESUS.
    The word made flesh.

    wakeup.

    #365824
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 02 2014,12:10)
    His name was JESUS.
    The word made flesh.

    wakeup.


    W

    BUT JESUS NEVER SAID HE WAS THE SPEAKING WORDS OF HIS FATHER

    SO WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFO FROM ???

    #365836
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 02 2014,06:28)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2014,02:04)

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 01 2014,11:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2014,10:49)
    T,

    Quote

    1 [count] a : a person who has a lot of a particular quality and who is the perfect example of someone who has that quality — often + of ▪ Your father is the personification of kindness and generosity. [=he is very kind and generous] ▪ He is the personification of evil.

    I know of not other place where this method of teaching is specifically used but variations of it are used as well as types.


    K

    So it could never be applied on words right ???


    T,

    Wrong as it can be applied to Jesus who has a lot of qualities of the word of God.


    k

    you have to prove to us THAT SPOKEN WORDS CAN BECOME FLESH ;IN SCRIPTURES


    T,

    You are not correctly understanding the definition I gave you.

    #365840
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 03 2014,04:25)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 02 2014,12:10)
    His name was JESUS.
    The word made flesh.

    wakeup.


    W

    BUT JESUS NEVER SAID HE WAS THE SPEAKING WORDS OF HIS FATHER

    SO WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFO FROM ???


    T.

    Quote

    BUT JESUS NEVER SAID HE WAS THE SPEAKING WORDS OF HIS FATHER
    SO WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFO FROM ???

    What I hear my Father say,that I say.
    What I see my Father do,that I do.

    Even the milk you can't digest.

    wakeup.

    #365841
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 03 2014,02:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 03 2014,04:25)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 02 2014,12:10)
    His name was JESUS.
    The word made flesh.

    wakeup.


    W

    BUT JESUS NEVER SAID HE WAS THE SPEAKING WORDS OF HIS FATHER

    SO WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFO FROM ???


    T.

    Quote

    BUT JESUS NEVER SAID HE WAS THE SPEAKING WORDS OF HIS FATHER
    SO WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFO FROM ???

    What I hear my Father say,that I say.
    What I see my Father do,that I do.

    Even the milk you can't digest.

    wakeup.


    scriptures please

    #365862
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 03 2014,08:22)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 03 2014,02:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 03 2014,04:25)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 02 2014,12:10)
    His name was JESUS.
    The word made flesh.

    wakeup.


    W

    BUT JESUS NEVER SAID HE WAS THE SPEAKING WORDS OF HIS FATHER

    SO WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFO FROM ???


    T.

    Quote

    BUT JESUS NEVER SAID HE WAS THE SPEAKING WORDS OF HIS FATHER
    SO WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFO FROM ???

    What I hear my Father say,that I say.
    What I see my Father do,that I do.

    Even the milk you can't digest.

    wakeup.


    scriptures please


    T.

    I hope you can understand this.

    John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    wakeup.

    #366193
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 03 2014,04:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 03 2014,08:22)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 03 2014,02:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 03 2014,04:25)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 02 2014,12:10)
    His name was JESUS.
    The word made flesh.

    wakeup.


    W

    BUT JESUS NEVER SAID HE WAS THE SPEAKING WORDS OF HIS FATHER

    SO WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFO FROM ???


    T.

    Quote

    BUT JESUS NEVER SAID HE WAS THE SPEAKING WORDS OF HIS FATHER
    SO WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFO FROM ???

    What I hear my Father say,that I say.
    What I see my Father do,that I do.

    Even the milk you can't digest.

    wakeup.


    scriptures please


    T.

    I hope you can understand this.

    John 12:49   For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

     John 12:50   And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    wakeup.


    w

    so you agree that Jesus was not a word or words but a messenger for the words of God ,or a courier of the words of his father ,

    and that even though Christ was “the WORD ” of God name given to him by his father when he was created/bring forth,made ,

    so being one with them would mean being of the same spirit right ??? YES

    Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

    Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
    Jn 17:21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
    Jn 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:

    the scriptures are clear of what it mean to be one in Christ and God

    #366194
    terraricca
    Participant

    w

    Quote
    What I hear my Father say,that I say.
    What I see my Father do,that I do.

    Even the milk you can't digest.

    wakeup.

    tell me what did Christ said that was not written in the scriptures ??? just a few things

    #366206
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi all,

    READ THIS 70 YEAR OLD REVELATION WHICH I'VE JUST READ,AND WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT AND SCRUTINIZE IT YOURSELF ACCORDING TO YOUR MATURITY, AND BELIEF OF THE WORDSOMETHING WHICH I ALREADY DID AND I AM MORE CONVINCED THEN BEFORE THAT THE WORD WAS AND IS GOD

    God is the Word ….

    God's presence ….
    Different conveyance of the Word ….

    And thus I Am in the midst of you in the Word as I have promised. I won't
    leave you on your own and you shall also feel My presence, and so I draw
    near to you in the Word, for I Myself Am the Word and anyone who has
    My Word can also speak of My presence and feel protected near to Me. I
    Myself Am a Spirit Which is not bound to any material form but is strength
    and light to the highest degree and Which, due to Its will and Its thinking
    ability, has to be addressed as a Being, Which takes effect with love and
    wisdom and therefore emanates love and wisdom into eternity. And My
    love expresses the strength and the light in a form which you humans can
    become aware of, as you are not yet mature enough in order to receive
    strength and light in its fundamental substance …. And this expression
    is My Word, which I convey to you so that you shall gain maturity …. A
    Spirit which is light and strength in itself can in fact only be present in the
    form of light and strength, and thus My Word, THE EMANATION OF MYSELF
    has to incorporate light and strength within itself, and this characterises
    My closeness. And therefore I gave you the promise that I will stay with
    you until the end of the world …. by the fact that My spirit is always
    with you who want to receive light and strength …. by the fact that My
    directly emanated Word is constantly conveyed to you in order to make My
    presence known to you. I Am with you …. and even if I don't visibly dwell
    among you, you nevertheless have the evidence of My presence in your
    hands if you recognise Me in the Word. For I Myself Am the Word …. and
    you will constantly receive it as soon as you desire Me and My being close
    to you. Thus anyone who recognize me in the Word will also be profoundly happy
    that I Am close to him, and all doubt, all fear and all worry will leave him
    because he knows that the One is beside him Who will helpfully support
    him in every adversity body and soul. Consequently, My will grants
    strength and grace, for anyone desiring My Word will open the door to his
    heart through which I can enter in order to take abode in it. And I will never
    ever leave him again once his will applies to Me and he has recognised Me
    in the Word. For the Word is the medium through which I express Myself, through
    which the most perfect Spirit of eternity reveals Himself to the imperfect
    beings in order to lead them to perfection …. I Am close to you …. So why
    do you who have My Word, who receive it directly or through the mouth of
    the recipient, still hesitate and worry …. I Am with all of you, because your
    desire for My Word demonstrates your love for Me …. And remember that
    only the flow of My Word to you gives you the certain proof that I Myself
    Am with you. Anyone who does not desire to hear Me does not desire My
    presence, his heart does not strive towards Me, for it would long for the
    expression of My love, for proof of My presence. Admittedly, the desire for
    My Word can certainly vary …. the human being can want to be comforted
    and strengthened through spiritual consolation, he can want to enrich his
    knowledge of spiritual spheres, he can also think of Me with gratitude
    and therefore want to express it by desiring My presence, he can want to
    remain with Me in intimate dialogue and accept My Word in his thoughts
    …. yet he must always be spiritually minded, then I will also let Myself
    be found and his call will draw Me to himself, and I will reveal Myself
    through My Word, since otherwise the human being would be unable to
    endure My presence. And likewise My Word will be conveyed to him in
    different ways …. through the direct working of the spirit within him so
    that he will be able to hear My Word himself …. through receiving it from a
    direct recipient who proclaims My Word on My instructions, or by way of
    mental transmission of knowledge from the spiritual kingdom …. through
    reading the Word I convey to earth …. through spiritual conversations with
    fellow human beings …. I will always look after heart which desires Me, I
    will always be with those who want to hear Me, for I Myself Am the Word,
    and thus I Myself dwell amongst people if they listen to My Word with
    the sincere will to let Me speak to them. Then I will offer them the bread
    of heaven, My flesh and My blood …. And if they thus eat and drink Me
    Myself they have to be most intimately united with Me …. if they accept
    My Word in profound faith that I Am the Word Itself they will accept Me
    in their hearts and I will constantly please them with My presence …. For
    I gave you the promise that I will stay with you until the end of the world,
    and every Word of My promise will come true, because My Word is and
    will remain the truth for all eternity  ….
    Amen

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #366211
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 03 2014,17:37)
    Hi all,

    READ THIS 70 YEAR OLD REVELATION WHICH I'VE JUST READ,AND WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT AND SCRUTINIZE IT YOURSELF ACCORDING TO YOUR MATURITY, AND BELIEF OF THE WORDSOMETHING WHICH I ALREADY DID AND I AM MORE CONVINCED THEN BEFORE THAT THE WORD WAS AND IS GOD

    God is the Word ….

    God's presence ….
    Different conveyance of the Word ….

    And thus I Am in the midst of you in the Word as I have promised. I won't
    leave you on your own and you shall also feel My presence, and so I draw
    near to you in the Word, for I Myself Am the Word and anyone who has
    My Word can also speak of My presence and feel protected near to Me. I
    Myself Am a Spirit Which is not bound to any material form but is strength
    and light to the highest degree and Which, due to Its will and Its thinking
    ability, has to be addressed as a Being, Which takes effect with love and
    wisdom and therefore emanates love and wisdom into eternity. And My
    love expresses the strength and the light in a form which you humans can
    become aware of, as you are not yet mature enough in order to receive
    strength and light in its fundamental substance …. And this expression
    is My Word, which I convey to you so that you shall gain maturity …. A
    Spirit which is light and strength in itself can in fact only be present in the
    form of light and strength, and thus My Word, THE EMANATION OF MYSELF
    has to incorporate light and strength within itself, and this characterises
    My closeness. And therefore I gave you the promise that I will stay with
    you until the end of the world …. by the fact that My spirit is always
    with you who want to receive light and strength …. by the fact that My
    directly emanated Word is constantly conveyed to you in order to make My
    presence known to you. I Am with you …. and even if I don't visibly dwell
    among you, you nevertheless have the evidence of My presence in your
    hands if you recognise Me in the Word. For I Myself Am the Word …. and
    you will constantly receive it as soon as you desire Me and My being close
    to you. Thus anyone who recognize me in the Word will also be profoundly happy
    that I Am close to him, and all doubt, all fear and all worry will leave him
    because he knows that the One is beside him Who will helpfully support
    him in every adversity body and soul. Consequently, My will grants
    strength and grace, for anyone desiring My Word will open the door to his
    heart through which I can enter in order to take abode in it. And I will never
    ever leave him again once his will applies to Me and he has recognised Me
    in the Word. For the Word is the medium through which I express Myself, through
    which the most perfect Spirit of eternity reveals Himself to the imperfect
    beings in order to lead them to perfection …. I Am close to you …. So why
    do you who have My Word, who receive it directly or through the mouth of
    the recipient, still hesitate and worry …. I Am with all of you, because your
    desire for My Word demonstrates your love for Me …. And remember that
    only the flow of My Word to you gives you the certain proof that I Myself
    Am with you. Anyone who does not desire to hear Me does not desire My
    presence, his heart does not strive towards Me, for it would long for the
    expression of My love, for proof of My presence. Admittedly, the desire for
    My Word can certainly vary …. the human being can want to be comforted
    and strengthened through spiritual consolation, he can want to enrich his
    knowledge of spiritual spheres, he can also think of Me with gratitude
    and therefore want to express it by desiring My presence, he can want to
    remain with Me in intimate dialogue and accept My Word in his thoughts
    …. yet he must always be spiritually minded, then I will also let Myself
    be found and his call will draw Me to himself, and I will reveal Myself
    through My Word, since otherwise the human being would be unable to
    endure My presence. And likewise My Word will be conveyed to him in
    different ways …. through the direct working of the spirit within him so
    that he will be able to hear My Word himself …. through receiving it from a
    direct recipient who proclaims My Word on My instructions, or by way of
    mental transmission of knowledge from the spiritual kingdom …. through
    reading the Word I convey to earth …. through spiritual conversations with
    fellow human beings …. I will always look after heart which desires Me, I
    will always be with those who want to hear Me, for I Myself Am the Word,
    and thus I Myself dwell amongst people if they listen to My Word with
    the sincere will to let Me speak to them. Then I will offer them the bread
    of heaven, My flesh and My blood …. And if they thus eat and drink Me
    Myself they have to be most intimately united with Me …. if they accept
    My Word in profound faith that I Am the Word Itself they will accept Me
    in their hearts and I will constantly please them with My presence …. For
    I gave you the promise that I will stay with you until the end of the world,
    and every Word of My promise will come true, because My Word is and
    will remain the truth for all eternity  ….
    Amen

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel.

    I like that.

    wakeup.

    #366232
    terraricca
    Participant

    charles

    nice but no, mix up the written words and THE WORD of God as the first born over all creation ,

    #366241
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 02 2014,20:54)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 03 2014,04:11)

    T.

    I hope you can understand this.

    John 12:49   For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

     John 12:50   And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    wakeup.


    w

    so you agree that Jesus was not a word or words but a messenger for the words of God ,or a courier of the words of his father ,


    Seems to me that Pierre understands it just fine, Wakeup.

    If Jesus was LITERALLY the spoken words OF God, then how could Jesus SPEAK the words of God to us?

    Also, if the LITERAL words of God were what became flesh, then Jesus wouldn't be able to SPEAK the words of God, for God would have no more words, since His words were busy dwelling in a flesh body.

    It's obvious that Jesus is a being separate from God, who speaks God's words to us. He is therefore given as one of his titles, “the Word of God”. It means he is God's main spokesperson – not the actual words that came out of God's mouth.

    Similarly, the King of Abyssinia also had a personal spokesman who had the title Kal Hatze – which means “the Word of the King”. And just like in the case of Jesus, the Word of the King of Abyssinia was not literally WORDS that the king spoke. He was instead an individual living entity who spoke the words of the king to others.

    #366242
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin? Last post on page 1089?

    #366249
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 04 2014,04:40)

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 02 2014,20:54)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 03 2014,04:11)

    T.

    I hope you can understand this.

    John 12:49   For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

     John 12:50   And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    wakeup.


    w

    so you agree that Jesus was not a word or words but a messenger for the words of God ,or a courier of the words of his father ,


    Seems to me that Pierre understands it just fine, Wakeup.

    If Jesus was LITERALLY the spoken words OF God, then how could Jesus SPEAK the words of God to us?

    Also, if the LITERAL words of God were what became flesh, then Jesus wouldn't be able to SPEAK the words of God, for God would have no more words, since His words were busy dwelling in a flesh body.

    It's obvious that Jesus is a being separate from God, who speaks God's words to us.  He is therefore given as one of his titles, “the Word of God”.  It means he is God's main spokesperson – not the actual words that came out of God's mouth.

    Similarly, the King of Abyssinia also had a personal spokesman who had the title Kal Hatze – which means “the Word of the King”.  And just like in the case of Jesus, the Word of the King of Abyssinia was not literally WORDS that the king spoke.  He was instead an individual living entity who spoke the words of the king to others.


    Mike B.

    Quote

    If Jesus was LITERALLY the spoken words OF God, then how could Jesus SPEAK the words of God to us?

    BECAUSE HE IS THE WORD OF GOD.
    BECAUSE THE WORDS CAN NOT COME OUT UNLESS GOD SAYS IT.

    Quote

    Also, if the LITERAL words of God were what became flesh, then Jesus wouldn't be able to SPEAK the words of God, for God would have no more words, since His words were busy dwelling in a flesh body.

    THIS IS WHERE MOST FAILED TO UNDERSTAND.
    THE WORD OF GOD, FROM THE BEGINNING CAN NOT SPEAK UNLESS GOD WANTS THE WORD TO SPEAK.
    ONES MOUTH CAN NOT SPEAK UNLESS THE PERSON WANTS TO SPEAK.

    Quote

    It's obvious that Jesus is a being separate from God, who speaks God's words to us. He is therefore given as one of his titles, “the Word of God”. It means he is God's main spokesperson – not the actual words that came out of God's mouth.

    THIS WOULD BE AGAINST SCRIPTURE.
    FOR SCRIPTURES SAYS THAT THE WORD WAS FROM
    EVERLASTING. HE WAS NOT CREATED AT BIRTH.
    HE WAS BROUHT FORTH BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.
    HE HAD GLORY WITH GOD BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.
    HE IS NOT A NEW COMER.

    Quote

    Similarly, the King of Abyssinia also had a personal spokesman who had the title Kal Hatze – which means “the Word of the King”. And just like in the case of Jesus, the Word of the King of Abyssinia was not literally WORDS that the king spoke. He was instead an individual living entity who spoke the words of the king to others.

    THE KING OF ABYSSINIA IS NOT GOD.
    NO MAN CAN GIVE HIS OWN WORD A FORM IN HIS OWN IMAGE. HE NEEDS TO HAVE ANOTHER PERSON TO ACT ON HIS BEHALF.

    GOD'S WORD IS NOT ANOTHER TO ACT ON HIS BEHALF.
    HE IS PART OF HIMSELF.

    wakeup.

    #366255
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 01 2014,21:06)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 31 2013,16:24)
    Mike,

    Jesus is the personification of the word of God though he was not before he was conceived in his mother's womb.


    And what is the NAME of the PERSON who was personified as the Word BEFORE Jesus was caused to be born from a woman's womb?

    Who was it BEFORE Jesus became flesh?  Because the Word is definitely being personified long before verse 14, right?  (Hint:  Read verses 6-13, where you can see the Word being personified as the one through whom all things were made, the true light who came into the world, the one who gave us the right to become children of God, and the one about whom John the Baptist came to testify.)


    Mike,

    I am using the AV of the KJV and I think there is a difference between it and the NIV version of John 1:6-13.

    John 1:6-13
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Yes, there is an apparent  difference in verse nine.

    John 1:6-13
    New International Version (NIV)

    6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

    9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    I am going to go by the NIV as the English is more understandable and it may mean the same as the AV of the KJV's words.

    verses 6-8 are speaking of the Light personified in Jesus.  verse 9 and 10 are a little confusing as one states the light is coming into the world and the other that was already in the world.  The light that is in the world is personified in Jesus so the light that is coming into the world would possibly be the reception of his message.  verses 11-13 is past tense and the light would be both personified in Jesus and would be his message.  Jesus did not speak his message prior to being immersed by John the Baptist so it must be the writers past.  That would mean that the light was coming into the world and was in the world at that same time.  That may mean I am mistaken about the light that is in the world being personified in Jesus as he had ascended to heaven by that time.

    All this reveals is that Light is Light and the Word is the Word and both are personified in Jesus after he was conceived.

    #366256
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 03 2014,01:57)

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 02 2014,06:28)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2014,02:04)

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 01 2014,11:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2014,10:49)
    T,

    Quote

    1 [count] a : a person who has a lot of a particular quality and who is the perfect example of someone who has that quality — often + of ▪ Your father is the personification of kindness and generosity. [=he is very kind and generous] ▪ He is the personification of evil.

    I know of not other place where this method of teaching is specifically used but variations of it are used as well as types.


    K

    So it could never be applied on words right ???


    T,

    Wrong as it can be applied to Jesus who has a lot of qualities of the word of God.


    k

    you have to prove to us THAT SPOKEN WORDS CAN BECOME FLESH ;IN SCRIPTURES


    T,

    You are not correctly understanding the definition I gave you.


    T,

    Do you understand that the word was made flesh = the word started to be personified by Jesus?

    #366267
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 04 2014,05:45)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 03 2014,01:57)

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 02 2014,06:28)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2014,02:04)

    Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 01 2014,11:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2014,10:49)
    T,

    Quote

    1 [count] a : a person who has a lot of a particular quality and who is the perfect example of someone who has that quality — often + of ▪ Your father is the personification of kindness and generosity. [=he is very kind and generous] ▪ He is the personification of evil.

    I know of not other place where this method of teaching is specifically used but variations of it are used as well as types.


    K

    So it could never be applied on words right ???


    T,

    Wrong as it can be applied to Jesus who has a lot of qualities of the word of God.


    k

    you have to prove to us THAT SPOKEN WORDS CAN BECOME FLESH ;IN SCRIPTURES


    T,

    You are not correctly understanding the definition I gave you.


    T,

    Do you understand that the word was made flesh = the word started to be personified by Jesus?


    K

    to me God created a being from his own nature and called him “THE WORD” THIS is a perfect name for the one that will become the spooksbeing for the rest of creation to be done by God his father ,

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