John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 15,021 through 15,040 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #364267
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    also this one.

    Romans 8:18-25
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

    #364268
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 19 2013,11:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,09:05)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 18 2013,12:52)
    Kerwin
    According to heb1:10 the son created the heavens. Do you agree?


    Jammin,

    I agree that the new earth and the new heaven were created by Jesus when he chose to sacrifice himself to save us from our sins.


    Did heb 1.10 say christ created NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH? OR JUST THE HEAVENS ARE MADE BY YOUR HANDS ETC?


    Jammin,
    Yes, It states the new heaven and new earth are made by Jesus as that is true.

    #364272
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 19 2013,16:45)
    Gene

    Make your own bible and change heb 1:10 lol


    Jammin……..It's not my fault you refuse to believe what Jesus himself say now is it?. I simply quoted you his own words
    but you refuse to believe them Just as you refuse to believe these words of His for thou are the “ONLY” TRUE GOD and this scripture also we know that there is no idol in the world and that there is “NO” GOD but “ONE”

    It appears to me you and people who believe as you do, like the Trinitarians and Preexistence's here are the ones, trying to write your own bibles, if you ask me.  It is you, whose going against the words of God, by preaching that there are other God's. But all true believers and Jesus, Knows that there is “ONLY ONE” TRUE GOD and it is Not Jesus according to Jesus that is.Those are His words not My, you just simply do not believe Him, nor what he says if you ask me.

    So whose writing their own bibles? Take my advice i gave you , and you will begin to do this,     come out of her my people that you receive not of her plagues  The Her there is the false Churches of this world, which have caused all the confusion about the Kingdom of God and the Word of God, and Jesus' words also. IMO

    If you need me to i can given the scriptures that say exactly what i quoted you. But the question is will you believe them?

    peace and love………………gene

    #364275
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,17:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 19 2013,11:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,09:05)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 18 2013,12:52)
    Kerwin
    According to heb1:10 the son created the heavens. Do you agree?


    Jammin,

    I agree that the new earth and the new heaven were created by Jesus when he chose to sacrifice himself to save us from our sins.


    Did heb 1.10 say christ created NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH? OR JUST THE HEAVENS ARE MADE BY YOUR HANDS ETC?


    Jammin,
    Yes,  It states the new heaven and new earth are made by Jesus as that is true.


    you are totally blind. how do you read english bible? are you an english man? i think you are having a hard time understanding the english language.

    let me post the heb 1.10
    Hebrews 1:10
    New International Version (NIV)
    10 He also says,

    “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.

    the bible did not say in heb 1.10 new earth and new heaven.

    here we can see that kerwin is really a false teacher. he is adding words to the bible.

    #364276
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2013,01:45)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 19 2013,16:45)
    Gene

    Make your own bible and change heb 1:10 lol


    Jammin……..It's not my fault you refuse to believe what Jesus himself say now is it?. I simply quoted you his own words
    but you refuse to believe them Just as you refuse to believe these words of His for thou are the “ONLY” TRUE GOD and this scripture also we know that there is no idol in the world and that there is “NO” GOD but “ONE”

    It appears to me you and people who believe as you do, like the Trinitarians and Preexistence's here are the ones, trying to write your own bibles, if you ask me.  It is you, whose going against the words of God, by preaching that there are other God's. But all true believers and Jesus, Knows that there is “ONLY ONE” TRUE GOD and it is Not Jesus according to Jesus that is.Those are His words not My, you just simply do not believe Him, nor what he says if you ask me.

    So whose writing their own bibles? Take my advice i gave you , and you will begin to do this,     come out of her my people that you receive not of her plagues  The Her there is the false Churches of this world, which have caused all the confusion about the Kingdom of God and the Word of God, and Jesus' words also. IMO

    If you need me to i can given the scriptures that say exactly what i quoted you. But the question is will you believe them?

    peace and love………………gene


    im asking about heb 1.10
    what are you talking about?? that is a different topic.

    first you have to know that this thread is about john 1.1

    in john 1.1 christ was called GOD. he was the WORD said by john.
    he is the Word of GOD REV 19.13 and according to john in verse 14, he became human.

    in heb 1.10 Chrst made the heavens.
    you dont believe what the bible said. you are just repeating what christ said in john 17.3 but you really dont know the meaning of that verse. so pls stop repeating that verse if you dont know the context. we can discuss that in other thread, but here you must focus in john 1.1.

    do you understand?

    john 1.1 said Christ was GOD.

    heb 1.10 proves that bec the verse tells us that he made the heavens unless you dont want to accept that truth. what you can do is you make your own bible and change the meaning of heb 1.10 LOL

    #364278
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 19 2013,22:08)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,17:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 19 2013,11:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,09:05)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 18 2013,12:52)
    Kerwin
    According to heb1:10 the son created the heavens. Do you agree?


    Jammin,

    I agree that the new earth and the new heaven were created by Jesus when he chose to sacrifice himself to save us from our sins.


    Did heb 1.10 say christ created NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH? OR JUST THE HEAVENS ARE MADE BY YOUR HANDS ETC?


    Jammin,
    Yes,  It states the new heaven and new earth are made by Jesus as that is true.


    you are totally blind. how do you read english bible? are you an english man? i think you are having a hard time understanding the english language.

    let me post the heb 1.10
    Hebrews 1:10
    New International Version (NIV)
    10 He also says,

    “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
       and the heavens are the work of your hands.

    the bible did not say in heb 1.10 new earth and new heaven.

    here we can see that kerwin is really a false teacher. he is adding words to the bible.


    Jammin,

    It does not have to say “new” as the reader is supposed to be led by the Spirit to know that God cannot be tempted by evil as Jesus was. Once the Spirit has taught you that fact then you know it is not speaking of the old creation. Once you understand that you only have the new creation left and other Scripture make it plain the it was created by the Son.

    God hides the truth from those not taught by the Spirit and reveals it to those taught by the Spirit.

    #364291
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 18 2013,20:31)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2013,07:46)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 18 2013,18:13)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2013,05:14)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 18 2013,16:14)
    It is true that all things were created new by Jesus when he chose to sacrifice himself on the cross.


    Show me in scripture.  Also, show me from scripture the claim you made to jammin………. the one that says the new heaven and new earth have already been created by Jesus.


    Mike,

    Your question shows you lack understanding of the full accomplishments of Jesus' sacrifice.  You say you have read them many times and yet you don't understand that Jesus' sacrifice released creation from its bondage to corruption.  

    Romans 8:18-25
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


    Okay.  I read the passage you quoted.

    Now show me the scriptures that actually SAY what you've claimed to me and to jammin.


    Mike,

    I already did and you failed to understand it.


    So then there AREN'T really any scriptures that say what you claim they say? And since you KNOW there aren't any, you will “win” this debate by saying I don't understand? :)

    Good one, Kerwin. ???

    #364292
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,00:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 19 2013,11:44)

    Did heb 1.10 say christ created NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH? OR JUST THE HEAVENS ARE MADE BY YOUR HANDS ETC?


    Jammin,
    Yes,  It states the new heaven and new earth are made by Jesus as that is true.


    Psalm 102:25 King Kerwin Version
    In the beginning you laid the foundations of the NEW earth, and the NEW heavens are the work of your hands.

    He must be right, jammin. There's that word “NEW” right there in the psalm that Paul was quoting in Hebrews 1:10!

    :D :laugh: :D

    #364298
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,06:43)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 18 2013,20:31)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2013,07:46)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 18 2013,18:13)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 19 2013,05:14)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 18 2013,16:14)
    It is true that all things were created new by Jesus when he chose to sacrifice himself on the cross.


    Show me in scripture.  Also, show me from scripture the claim you made to jammin………. the one that says the new heaven and new earth have already been created by Jesus.


    Mike,

    Your question shows you lack understanding of the full accomplishments of Jesus' sacrifice.  You say you have read them many times and yet you don't understand that Jesus' sacrifice released creation from its bondage to corruption.  

    Romans 8:18-25
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


    Okay.  I read the passage you quoted.

    Now show me the scriptures that actually SAY what you've claimed to me and to jammin.


    Mike,

    I already did and you failed to understand it.


    So then there AREN'T really any scriptures that say what you claim they say?  And since you KNOW there aren't any, you will “win” this debate by saying I don't understand?  :)

    Good one, Kerwin.  ???


    Mike,

    I could waste pointing out what you do not want to believe but what is written anyways but I did not feel like it at the time, Perhaps at another time.

    #364299
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,06:49)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,00:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 19 2013,11:44)

    Did heb 1.10 say christ created NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH? OR JUST THE HEAVENS ARE MADE BY YOUR HANDS ETC?


    Jammin,
    Yes,  It states the new heaven and new earth are made by Jesus as that is true.


    Psalm 102:25  King Kerwin Version
    In the beginning you laid the foundations of the NEW earth, and the NEW heavens are the work of your hands.

    He must be right, jammin.  There's that word “NEW” right there in the psalm that Paul was quoting in Hebrews 1:10!  

    :D  :laugh:  :D


    Mike,

    I already pointed out to you that Psalms is speaking of Jehovah and the old creation.  The writer just used it for Jesus because it is true of him.  He does that with Hebrews 1:6 as well.  That passage is a quote from Deuteronomy 32:43 of the Masoretic and the Septuagint version from the Dead Sea Scrolls according to the NIV.  

    Deuteronomy 32:43
    New International Version (NIV)

    43 Rejoice, you nations, with his people,[a][b]
       for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
    he will take vengeance on his enemies
       and make atonement for his land and people.
    Footnotes:

       Deuteronomy 32:43 Or Make his people rejoice, you nations
       Deuteronomy 32:43 Masoretic Text; Dead Sea Scrolls (see also Septuagint) people, / and let all the angels worship him, /

    It sounds like in its original place it is talking about God's people being “worshiped” by angels.

    #364304
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,12:19)

    Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 19 2013,06:54)
    K

    Quote
    T,  

    As far as I know Israel was the first.

    Adam and Eve were the first humans.

    I do not yet see how this answers my question.

    MAY BE I DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION ;FRUITS ARE THE RESULTS OF WORK ,ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES AND BEING FIRST FRUITS MEANS THAT THEIR IS MORE THAN ONE HARVEST


    T,

    This is the passage I was speaking of.

    James 1:18
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


    k

    Jas 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
    Jas 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created

    what i can see is that Paul mention that through the WORD OF TRUTH,the call trough Christ had begone and that the first that were called were called for an heavenly position ,and so were a KIND of first fruits from the first harvest ,Christ talks about two calls of sheep,

    Ro 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
    Ro 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
    Ro 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
    Ro 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
    Ro 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
    Ro 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
    Ro 8:24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?
    Ro 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
    Ro 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.
    Ro 8:27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will

    Paul talks about the final accomplishment when all will be in God and of God and God in all ,but in the mean time we have to cope with our time ,and so as they where standing in the first hour in the works of Christ they so are the first fruits of the kingdom that have been harvest through the preaching of Christ gospel,but this was the first hour now we are close to the 11 hour the end of the day,and we all still groan for Christ coming,

    #364317
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2013,11:49)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,00:22)

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 19 2013,11:44)

    Did heb 1.10 say christ created NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH? OR JUST THE HEAVENS ARE MADE BY YOUR HANDS ETC?


    Jammin,
    Yes,  It states the new heaven and new earth are made by Jesus as that is true.


    Psalm 102:25  King Kerwin Version
    In the beginning you laid the foundations of the NEW earth, and the NEW heavens are the work of your hands.

    He must be right, jammin.  There's that word “NEW” right there in the psalm that Paul was quoting in Hebrews 1:10!  

    :D  :laugh:  :D


    hahaha. i agree mike.
    it is a king kerwin version LOL

    #364318
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    im sorry but what you are saying is non sense. it is easy to recognize a false teacher like you. false teachers like you preached WHAT IS NOT written in the bible. LOL

    #364326
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all………..John 1:1 In the beginning, the word was with God and the word was God

    simply meaning just as written …> In the beginning , the word (intelligent utterance) was with God and the word (intelligent utterance ) was God. Meaning God and His word are one and the same thing Just as our word and us are the same thing.

    Now along comes, Jammins and Mikes and all trinitarians and Preexistence's complex transliterations……..> In the beginning was the word (Jesus ) with God, and the word (Jesus) was (a) God.

    Now, poor old John was so stupid he didn't know he should have written the word Jesus there  (a Person) instead of Just “word” (intelligent utterance), So along comes  Jammin, and Mike, and other Trinitarians and Preexistence's and Just straighten out  poor old stupid John's writings,  to read as they say it should., they change the text to read as He should have written it. Does it bother them to do that , well no because there churches say it OK to alter text if it fit “their” false teachings. Jammin, and you have the nerve to say “we change scripture” to meet our views. Thats a Joke at best if you ask me.

    peace and love………………………………….gene

    #364327
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2013,22:00)
    To all………..John 1:1 In the beginning, the word was with God and the word was God

    simply meaning just as written …> In the beginning , the word (intelligent utterance) was with God and the word (intelligent utterance ) was God. Meaning God and His word are one and the same thing Just as our word and us are the same thing.

    Now along comes, Jammins and Mikes and all trinitarians and Preexistence's complex transliterations……..> In the beginning was the word (Jesus ) with God, and the word (Jesus) was (a) God.

    Now, poor old John was so stupid he didn't know he should have written the word Jesus there  (a Person) instead of Just “word” (intelligent utterance), So along comes  Jammin, and Mike, and other Trinitarians and Preexistence's and Just straighten out  poor old stupid John's writings,  to read as they say it should., they change the text to read as He should have written it. Does it bother them to do that , well no because there churches say it OK to alter text if it fit “their” false teachings. Jammin, and you have the nerve to say “we change scripture” to meet our views. Thats a Joke at best if you ask me.

    peace and love………………………………….gene


    gene

    Quote
    simply meaning just as written

    you are not so supporting of the scriptures when it says ;

    DT 10:17 “ For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.
    PS 136:2 Give thanks to the God of gods,
    For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
    DA 2:47 The king answered Daniel and said, “Surely your God is a God of gods and a Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, since you have been able to reveal this mystery.”
    DA 11:36 “Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.

    GOD OF GODS ;; AND SO WHO ARE THE GODS THAT GOD JEHOVAH IS GOD OVER ????

    I PRESENTED YOU WITH 4 SCRIPTURES THAT SAYS :GOD OF GODS “

    YOU PRESENTED ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE AND IT SHOULD BE TRUE AND RIGHT ,NO NEED TO INVESTIGATE ???

    BUT AS FOR :HE HIS THE GOD OF GODS YOU JUST CANNOT SWALLOW IT RIGHT ??? FUNNY

    #364329
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Dec. 20 2013,17:27)
    kerwin,

    im sorry but what you are saying is non sense. it is easy to recognize a false teacher like you. false teachers like you preached WHAT IS NOT written in the bible. LOL


    Jammin,

    It is written that God cannot be tempted by evil and you are claiming he was for it is also written that Jesus was tempted even as is common to man. It is therefore you that teach nonsense.

    On the other hand the earth was subjected to frustration by one man and it was freed from temptation by one man. Adam is the man that subjected it to frustration by his choice to sin and Jesus delivered it from frustration by his choice of righteousness. In this way the new creating was created by him.

    #364330
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    Quote
    Jas 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
    Jas 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created

    I am not sure if this is speaking of the first in sequence or the best of creation. Originally I was thinking it meant first and sequence because of what I remembered of it and the words Paul wrote in the following.

    1 Corinthians 15:22-23
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

    #364340
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 19 2013,22:01)
    Mike,

    I already pointed out to you that Psalms is speaking of Jehovah and the old creation.


    So is Col 1:16, 1 Cor 8:6, and Heb 1:2.

    You know how I know?  Because the God-inspired writer of these scriptures DIDN'T include the word “NEW” before the words “things” and “ages”.

    Kerwin, you have tricked yourself into believing the new heavens and new earth are already created………. all because you don't WANT to believe all things were created through Jesus.

    2 Peter 3:13
    But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

    You say that Jesus being sacrificed is what began this new heaven and new earth.  But Peter wrote the above many years AFTER Jesus had died and been raised.  And he was still WAITING FOR these things to happen.

    Revelation 21:1
    Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away………..

    Jesus told John that his revelation was of things TO COME.  He told John this over 50 years AFTER he had died and gone to heaven.  Also, look at the word “FOR” that I supersized for you.  There will be a new heaven and a new earth BECAUSE the old ones WILL pass away eventually.

    So not until the old ones die will there be new ones.

    So not only are you taking words from different scriptures and different contexts, and superimposing those words over other teachings to make your point, but your point doesn't even work AFTER you've done all that scriptural juggling.

    But you go ahead and “waste time” by “pointing it out to me” when you get the chance, okay?

    #364341
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 20 2013,10:00)
    Now, poor old John was so stupid he didn't know he should have written the word Jesus there (a Person) instead of Just “word” (intelligent utterance), So along comes Jammin, and Mike, and other Trinitarians and Preexistence's and Just straighten out poor old stupid John's writings, to read as they say it should.


    I wonder if Gene “straightens out poor old stupid John” in Revelation 19:13, where he also wrote “The Word”, but was clearly referring to Jesus. :)

    #364350
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 21 2013,00:02)
    T,

    Quote
    Jas 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
    Jas 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created

    I am not sure if this is speaking of the first in sequence or the best of creation.  Originally I was thinking it meant first and sequence because of what I remembered of it and the words Paul wrote in the following.

    1 Corinthians 15:22-23
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.


    k

    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
    1Co 15:23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
    1Co 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
    1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
    1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
    1Co 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    THIS IS RELATED TO THE RESURRECTION i DO NOT SEE WHAT CONNECTION IT AT TO DO WITH YOUR ORIGINAL QUESTION ,AND YOUR QUESTION WAS NOT CLEAR EITHER ,SO RE QUESTION THE QUESTION

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