John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 101 through 120 (of 25,987 total)
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  • #4935
    NickHassan
    Participant

    cont
    Jn 17
    These things Jesus spoke; and lifting his eyes to heaven, he said
    'Father ,the hour has come; glorify thy Son, that the Son may glorify thee, even as thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom thou hast given him he may give eternal life.
    And this is eternal life,that they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.
    And now ,glorify thou me together with thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with thee before the world was”.

    So the Word of God written by the Spirit through John says

    Jesus calls God Father. No one had ever done that before. He knew he was the Son of God even at age 12.

    Jesus was in heaven with his Father. He said so.

    Jesus was sent by the Father. When? It is not recorded in his life record on earth.

    Jesus had glory in heaven. He said so.

    This was before the world was. He said so.

    Jesus was given authority over all men? When? It is not recorded as being given in his time on earth.

    Jesus and John, I know were of God. I am still very ignorant so I will go with them.

    #4938
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,

    I am not going to quibble with you over the meaning of the Greek word “monogenes”.  We obviously disagree.  I think that it is clear from the Hebrew passage that the word means “unique”.  You think that I have simply taken the verse out of context, and that “monogenes” really means “begotten”, even though there is already another Greek word for that.  Let's just leave it at that.

    Quote
    I serve the God of the Abraham, Moses and Jesus. I am baptised into the body of Christ so am a part of that body on earth. I serve the Head of the Body-Jesus. I do not worship Jesus as I am in him. He has divine nature and is worthy of worship by angels and natural men and accepted that worship though he did not seek it but led others to worship his Father. He is, though, The Son of God, subject to his God, the Father.

    So, you serve Yahweh and “Jesus”, both of whom are gods by your understanding.  Yes?  Are you afraid to call “Jesus” a god?

    Quote
    Surely you are not now questioning the validity of John's gospel as well? I agree he had a special gift of spiritual wisdom that showed  he knew the origins of Jesus and he expressed them more clearly and deeply than his peers. But Peter and Paul also showed his origins and the other gospels showed who he was by what he did.

    I am trying to build on the foundation of the OT, so anything that seems contrary to its teachings are suspect.  For example, in John's gospel “Jesus” says the following:

    John 2″
    “19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” “

    So here's my question.  Did “Jesus” raise himself, or did God raise him?  If “Jesus” was able to raise himself, then doesn't that make him a god in his own right who did not need the Father?  Or better yet, doesn't this better fit the Trinitarian view that he is THE God of the universe?  By the way, why is it that none of the other gospels record him saying that he would raise himself?

    John's gospel seems to contain a lot of figurative language that can easily be interpreted to the Trinitarian position.  Admittedly, I now take the position that if a doctrine can only be proven from the gospel of John, and does not seem to show up anywhere else in scripture, then that doctrine is suspect in my mind.

    Quote
    What about talking about your foundation too WIT?
    You say Jesus is not just a man so what is he to you?

    Even the Muslims say he was a great prophet.

    My confession is that Yeshua is the Messiah, the Annointed One of God, the promised suffering servant and the worthy lamb of God.  The muslim would not confess the same, but would say that Muhammed is God's most Holy Prophet and that the Quran is more sacred than the “Jewish scriptures”.  My confession, by the way, is not much different than Peter's:

    Matthew 16:
    “16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.””

    Mark 8:
    “29“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Christ.””

    Luke 9:
    “20“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “The Christ of God.””

    Notice that Mark does not use the term “Son of God”.  Did he get the confession half right, or is it possible that “Christ” and “Son of God” essentially meant the same thing, as in the way Matthew uses it?

    Notice also that John's gospel does not have any such confession.  The most famous confession in John is this:

    John 20″
    “28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!””

    The confession in John leads people down the path of the Trinity.  The confession in ALL the other gospels leads one to the OT witness of a promised Prophet and King, who would be the light of all men.

    #4939
    NickHassan
    Participant

    No Wit,
    Fear is not my motive except fear of God. Him I fear greatly and I honour and have great respect for His Son.

    No Jesus did not raise himself. Surely you agree with this. A quick look through Acts alone finds at least 7 testimonies that Jesus was raised by his Father.
    eg Acts 2.32, 3.15, 4.10, 5.30, 10.40, 13.30, 17.31.
    So it is plain Jesus was not promising to raise his own body as that would be contrary to scripture.

    So what was Jesus saying? He talked about the temple of the Holy Spirit – his body – just as Paul called our bodies in Jesus, temples of the Holy Spirit. Surely he was speaking of the future in the spirit of prophecy – the Father's Spirit
    speaking through him?

    You must not have read my previous posts about Jesus to make the statements you do WIT. Even men are called gods by Jesus so why would I not say that about him? But he is not the Father.

    The Father is the gardener but Jesus is the Vine and I am a branch who serves the vine to produce a little useful fruit for the gardener. I worship God by honouring, obeying and serving the Son. As well I have direct access to the Father in prayer and worship thanks to the work of the Son.

    Ignoring ,denigrating or not truly respecting the Son would prove I did not honour or respect his Father..

    #4940
    NickHassan
    Participant

    cont.
    Talking about the temple in Jerusalem as in Hebrews 9. it is described as being of THREE parts.I think we can compare it with ourselves as we are compared to a temple.

    The outer court -equivalent to the body – of the world.

    The holy place-where the common daily worship was performed-equivalent to our soul where our heart and mind are retrained in the pursuit of the ways of God.

    The Holy of Holies where the glory and evidence of God presence with men was-equivalent to the spirit of man designed to hold the Spirit of God.

    What do others think?

    #4941
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Cont
    Your comparisons between the three versions of Peter's statement about Jesus cause me problems. As I understand it all those statements stand alone. One can add meaning to the others but none can take away meaning as you seem to be doing by reducing the Matthew version to be equivalent to the others.
    I thought Christ comes from the greek word for LIGHT but some have said it means Messiah-I will check.

    #4942
    NickHassan
    Participant

    cont
    John certainly testified himself about Jesus in all his letters and in far greater detail than in the other gospels
    As well as quoting all that Jesus said about himself he said of Jesus in Jn 13.3
    “..Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come forth from God and was going back to God, rose from supper..”

    #4943
    NickHassan
    Participant

    cont
    John certainly testified himself about Jesus in all his letters and in far greater detail than in the other gospels. We need to learn from him and not question his Spirit or suggest conspiracy interpretation theories surely?

    As well as quoting all that Jesus said about himself he said of Jesus in Jn 13.3
    “..Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come forth from God and was going back to God, rose from supper..”

    #4944
    NickHassan
    Participant

    No WIT,
    I say 'monogenes' is poorly shown as 'only begotten' but is better read as 'only' as in Hebrews or 'begotten' in the other verse from John which really is the same thing as 'begotten alone' or 'derived from one'

    #4945
    WhatIsTrue
    Participant

    Nick,

    Quote
    No Jesus did not raise himself. Surely you agree with this. A quick look through Acts alone finds at least 7 testimonies that Jesus was raised by his Father.
    eg Acts 2.32, 3.15, 4.10, 5.30, 10.40, 13.30, 17.31.
    So it is plain Jesus was not promising to raise his own body as that would be contrary to scripture.

    So what was Jesus saying? He talked about the temple of the Holy Spirit – his body – just as Paul called our bodies in Jesus, temples of the Holy Spirit. Surely he was speaking of the future in the spirit of prophecy – the Father's Spirit
    speaking through him?

    I am not sure what you are trying to say here – (it's as confusing as many Trinitarian explanations) – but if you look at the context, it is clear that “Jesus” is talking about his ressurection.

    John 2:
    “19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” 20The Jews replied, “It has taken fortysix years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.”

    In John's gospel, “Jesus” raises himself.  If that is not what it is saying, then the language in John's gospel is so figurative as to make it extremely difficult to understand.  Which do you say it is?

    Quote
    Your comparisons between the three versions of Peter's statement about Jesus cause me problems. As I understand it all those statements stand alone. One can add meaning to the others but none can take away meaning as you seem to be doing by reducing the Matthew version to be equivalent to the others.
    I thought Christ comes from the greek word for LIGHT but some have said it means Messiah-I will check.

    I think that you would agree the gospels record the same events from varying points of view.  Peter's confession was a singular event.  Look at the verses in context.  They are describing the same event.  Peter did not confess to three different things.  He made one confession, and Yeshua confirmed it.  All three gospels capture the essence of what Peter confessed.

    Quote
    John certainly testified himself about Jesus in all his letters and in far greater detail than in the other gospels. We need to learn from him and not question his Spirit or suggest conspiracy interpretation theories surely?

    Well, if the term “Messiah” and the term “Son of God” are not the same, then explain how Mark missed one half of the most important confession of Peter's life WITHOUT questioning Mark's spirit or suggesting conspiracy.

    Frankly, I think it's clear that the two terms mean the same thing.

    Quote
    I say 'monogenes' is poorly shown as 'only begotten' but is better read as 'only' as in Hebrews or 'begotten' in the other verse from John which really is the same thing as 'begotten alone' or 'derived from one'

    It seems rather convenient that the word changes to exactly fit your doctrine.

    Quote
    You must not have read my previous posts about Jesus to make the statements you do WIT. Even men are called gods by Jesus so why would I not say that about him? But he is not the Father.

    I am reading your posts.  I just have yet to see you state plainly that you serve two gods.  You seem to shy away from declaring your faith in simple terms, but rather launch into various defenses.  Proclaim your faith boldy!  If you believe “Jesus” is a god, like his father, then just say very simply that you serve two gods.

    I am off on holiday for a little while, so you will have plenty of time to load me up with rebuttals!  Enjoy!

    #4946
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WIT,
    You say you are “trying to build on the foundation of the OT”
    Jesus said in Mt 13.52
    “Every scribe who is learned in the reign of God is like the head of a household who can bring out from his storeroom both the new and the old”
    We know that no other foundation stone can be laid but that of Jesus himself [salvation]
    But Jesus also said “Anyone who hears my words and puts them into practice is like the wise man who built his house on rock”
    So Jesus specified which of the Testaments we are to build on – The NT rather than the OT. He also said people prefer old wine to new and told them not to put new wine into old wineskins.

    The first scripture above tells us both are to be used but the NT interprets the OT. Let us face it that the jews only had the Holy Spirit in the form of prophets, who they largely ignored, and the written word ,which Jesus had to explain to them. They did not recognise the Messiah despite the study of OT. Jesus showed them he was spoken of in that Word but they never had found those meanings.

    The NT explains and fulfils the OT not vice versa.To look at the NT through the eyes of the OT will never encompass the teachings of Jesus and the apostles and will risk the same trap the jews fell into-missing the visit of the Son of God entirely.

    #4947
    NickHassan
    Participant

    WIT,
    Does the branch serve the vine?
    Did Matthew not write a longer gospel than Mark? Does that mean the extra was superfluous and all statements in them are to be reduced to the lowest common denominator? No that would distort scripture.

    #4948
    NickHassan
    Participant

    HiWIT,
    As i pointed out Jesus did not raise himself so that scripture has to be interpreted according to what did happen. Jesus was raised by his Father. Even the OT supports this as
    ” thou wilt not allow thy Holy one to undergo decay”
    speaks of Jesus's  death-but who will not allow Jesus body to decay? Himself? No the Father.

    #4949
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 14 2004,17:46)
    So now, from what I gather, “Jesus” is not just “The Logos”, he is the embodiment of everything that God is.  So, what exactly is his identity again?  Is he “the Word” in identity?  Is he “the Truth” in identity?  Is he “the Way” in identity?  Is he “the Life” in identity?

    To WIT,

    Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life. He didn't say I have truth and I have life and I am a way. Anyone could say that.

    He embodies all that God is.

    Colossians 1:19
    For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

    Life and truth are of God. Jesus has these and all his other attributes. Like Father, like son.

    So the answer that you seek is that he is all those things and more. Also we are encouraged to attain the full measure of Christ.

    Ephesians 4:13
    until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

    #4950
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 14 2004,17:46)
    Romans 1:
    “3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:”

    (Note: This would be a perfect time for Paul to say that “Jesus” was born of God before the world began, since he is talking of the Christ's earthly and heavenly credentials. Paul missed his opportunity to state this plainly here, but then again, so did all the writers of the bible.)


    To WIT,

    Romans 1:3-4
    3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
    4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead:

    Jesus partook of the flesh, he is not the flesh itself. It also says that all things were made through him. So if Jesus was created, then he was made through Jesus. It doesn't make sense.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Hebrews 1:2
    but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    #4951
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 15 2004,12:39)
    Revelations 1:
    “5and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.”

    Colossians 1:
    “18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.”

    Death is not birth, as you have said, but ressurrection, according to scripture, is.

    Again, where is your concept of being “begotten before the world began” coming from?


    To WIT,

    If you read further in Colossians 1 you will see that it mentions 2 specific births.

    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
    19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
    20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    Colossians is a very revealing passage of scripture regarding Christ. This part of scripture answers your questions.

    #4952
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 15 2004,12:39)
    If the term “son of God” is exclusive to the messiah, and can not refer to men, then there are some OT writers who need some rebuking:


    To WIT,

    We are sons of God and there are many. But Jesus is excuslively the Son of God.

    In the same way there are many gods but there is but one God the Father. He is the God.

    #4953
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 15 2004,18:06)
    Now, I ask you again, where is your concept of being “begotten before the world began” coming from? Where is it in scripture?


    To WIT,

    Apart from the scriptures I have already quoted regarding Christs pre-existence, you should read the first chapter of John with careful consideration.

    I also offer you the following teaching:
    https://heavennet.net/answers/answer31.htm

    #4957
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Hello all
    I happened on this site within the last few days, having spent more than a few years trying to sort out Trinity.
    Reading your back and forth I conclude the discussion to be the “crop circles” of Trinity.
    So here it is
    I don't believe in the trinity. Period. Once I discovered I was “different” I had to decide whether I was damned to …. or enlightened. Let me know if I'm damned. I'll want to pack all my coolest clothing.
    Seriously, I would appreciate opinion on where to pack for.

    #4958
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Welcome HM,
    I will be promoting the trinity as soon as I find it in the bible. So far no luck so in the meantime I suggest you only carry treasures that are useful as it is a long way and bags of other stuff get heavy.

    #4963
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi holymackeral,

    Belief in the Trinity is not required for salvation. The Trinity doctrine seems to have replaced the true foundation for a lot of people.

    As far as our messiah is concerned you are required to believe that Jesus (Yahshua) is the Christ and the son of God. This is the foundation that you should build on. You are not required to believe in Greek philosophy to be saved.

    I offer you the following writing as it focusses on the true foundation of our faith and why the Trinity doctrine is not what the scriptures teach.

    https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity.htm

    There are no “crop circles” there. Just a focussed teaching looking at nearly all the scriptures that are used in the Trinity teaching.

    If you have the patience, you could read the Trinity discussion as it has representives from both sides of this view.
    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….=1;t=70

    There is some good stuff there.

    God bless you in your journey and may God give you the strength to stand for the truth not matter what men say.

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