John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #357323
    jammin
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    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,14:11)

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 10 2013,09:02)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 06 2013,02:29)
    jammin

    Colossians 1:16 Click this icon to open a printer friendly page
    Context
    NET ©
    for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, 1  whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.
    NIV ©
    For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    NASB ©
    For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
    NLT ©
    Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see––kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him.
    MSG ©
    For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels–[everything] got started in him and finds its purpose in him.
    BBE ©
    For by him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, authorities, lords, rulers, and powers; all things were made by him and for him;
    NRSV ©
    for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.
    NKJV ©
    For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
    KJV
    For
    by
    him
    were
    (0) all things
    created
    (5681)_, that are in
    heaven
    _, and
    that are in
    earth
    _, visible
    and
    invisible
    _, whether
    [they be] thrones
    _, or
    dominions
    _, or
    principalities
    _, or
    powers
    _: all things
    were created
    (5769) by
    him
    _, and
    for
    him
    _:
    NASB ©
    For by Him all
    things
    were created
    , both in the heavens
    and on earth
    , visible
    and invisible
    , whether
    thrones
    or
    dominions
    or
    rulers
    or
    authorities
    –all
    things
    have been created
    through
    Him and for Him.
    GREEK
    oti

    CONJen

    PREPautw

    P-DSMektisyh
    (5681)
    V-API-3Sta

    T-NPNpanta

    A-NPNen

    PREPtoiv

    T-DPMouranoiv

    N-DPMkai

    CONJepi

    PREPthv

    T-GSFghv

    N-GSFta

    T-NPNorata

    A-NPNkai

    CONJta

    T-NPNaorata

    A-NPNeite

    CONJyronoi

    N-NPMeite

    CONJkuriothtev

    N-NPFeite

    CONJarcai

    N-NPFeite

    CONJexousiai

    N-NPFta

    T-NPNpanta

    A-NPNdi

    PREPautou

    P-GSMkai

    CONJeiv

    PREPauton

    P-ASMektistai
    (5769)
    V-RPI-3S
    NET © [draft] ITL
    for
    all things
    in
    heaven
    and
    on
    earth
    were created
    by
    him
    – all things, whether visible
    or
    invisible
    , whether
    thrones
    or
    dominions
    , whether
    principalities
    or
    powers
    – all things
    were created
    through
    him
    and
    for
    him
    .
    NET ©
    for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, 1  whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.
    NET © Notes
    1 tn BDAG 579 s.v. κυριότης 3 suggests “bearers of the ruling powers, dominions” here.
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    many parts of scriptures have been altered ,some times only words ,and some times more ,but it is our responsibility before God to search him that love's  us ,if you do not ,you will pay the price of your refusal to act ;become a true believer is not read the bible and sit in a church and listen ,

    it is so that the understanding does not come out of WORDS  but out of the spirit (understanding of the words meaning as a whole ) that is also spread out into the entire scriptures and you,we, anyone that love's God will look for ,not by the power of man ,but by letting God's spirit guide us through his  written word, he as the key ,no man as the key ; all true believers that love God and his son ,will receive a key from God made for them personally ,to fit them ,but will also open the same gate to all other true believers ,what i mean is very spiritual ,but is true ;  


    what do you want to tell me???

    you dont understand that verse

    Colossians 1:16

    Expanded Bible (EXB)

    16 ·Through his power [L In him; or By him] all things were created [John 1:3; Heb. 1:2]—things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all ·powers [or heavenly authorities; L thrones], ·authorities [dominions; kingdoms], ·lords [rulers], and ·rulers [authorities; C these four may refer to angelic hierarchies, or to earthly and heavenly rulers]. All things were created through Christ and for Christ.

    pls read this

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    For by him were all things created,…. This is a reason proving Christ to be before all creatures, to be the common Parent of them, and to have the government over them, since he is the Creator of them.

    another proof
    Colossians 1:16

    Living Bible (TLB)

    16 Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory.

    im not just making opinion..
    im giving word for word in the bible.


    Jammin

    I going to tell nothing ;because i can not tell anything more than what is in the scriptures ,

    all my knowledge and understanding starts and finishes in the scriptures ,with a ton of prayers ,

    I think we do not belong or live into the same world ,

    the best to you in your traveling ;were ever you may go


    i understand…

    #357324
    terraricca
    Participant

    jammin

    Quote
    i understand…

    I know you don't..

    #357337
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,12:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,10:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25)
    A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one.

    Is it wise to base a teaching on hints?


    Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2.

    But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.)

    You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of.

    I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin.

    Believe what you want.


    Mike,

    Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already.

    The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order.

    Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed.

    In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make.


    k

    THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “

    THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT ,

    YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW ,

    ADIÓS AMIGOS


    T,

    Do you not see what is there to see?

    Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”?


    k

    THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION ;WE ALL KNOW THAT CHRIST DID NOT EXISTED IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT :

    :D  :D  :D ;READ  THE QUOTES, YOU ARE TOTALLY MIXUP


    T,

    Are you claiming that you believe that the preexistent Christ was not a servant of God?


    Scriptures says he was the first of God,s creation

    This is why he his the only begotten son of God ,


    T,

    You did not answer my question as far as I can tell. If you think you did then perhaps a yes, a no, or something of that type followed by your explanation would be more clear to me than what you wrote. Please try again. Thank you.

    #357338
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,23:30)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,12:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,10:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25)
    A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one.

    Is it wise to base a teaching on hints?


    Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2.

    But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.)

    You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of.

    I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin.

    Believe what you want.


    Mike,

    Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already.

    The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order.

    Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed.

    In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make.


    k

    THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “

    THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT ,

    YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW ,

    ADIÓS AMIGOS


    T,

    Do you not see what is there to see?

    Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”?


    k

    THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION ;WE ALL KNOW THAT CHRIST DID NOT EXISTED IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT :

    :D  :D  :D ;READ  THE QUOTES, YOU ARE TOTALLY MIXUP


    T,

    Are you claiming that you believe that the preexistent Christ was not a servant of God?


    Scriptures says he was the first of God,s creation

    This is why he his the only begotten son of God ,


    T,

    You did not answer my question as far as I can tell.  If you think you did then perhaps a yes, a no, or something of that type followed by your explanation would be more clear to me than what you wrote.  Please try again.  Thank you.


    K

    i have answered you ,many time to those questions ,but you are what you are ;YOU CAN NOT COME TO GRIP WITH THE SCRIPTURES ,I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT ,

    YOU HAVE TO FACE WHAT IS WRITTEN ,I HAVE ALREADY ACCEPTED WHAT IS WRITTEN YOU DO NOT ,SO YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH GOD ON THIS ONE ;BUT THE “YES OR NO “” WILL BE FROM YOUR MONTH NOT MINE ,

    #357349
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,22:05)
    Mike,

    Do you believe God used the Holy Spirit to have sex with Mary in order to father Jesus?


    No. Do you?

    #357350
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,22:09)
    Mike,

    I hope to look at your other proofs when I am feeling less under the weather.


    We have compiled about 50 of them in the “Pre-existent Database” thread.

    It is not meant to be a discussion thread, so after you've had time to read those scriptures that speak of the pre-existence of Jesus, you and I can discuss them one at a time if you'd like.

    #357351
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,22:13)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,08:34)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,19:45)
    Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”?


    Of course Jesus couldn't have already existed in the form of a servant before taking on the form of a servant.

    He WAS existing in one form, but then emptied himself and took on a DIFFERENT form by being made in the likeness of a human being.

    And after being found in appearance as a human being, he humbled himself even further by becoming obedient to death.


    Mike,

    It seems you believe servant is a synonym of human in the statement “took on the form of a servant”.


    The point is that the form in which Jesus was existing was a higher form than the one he EMPTIED HIMSELF to take on.

    1.  Was existing in one form.
    2.  EMPTIED HIMSELF by taking on a LOWER form by being made in the likeness of a human being.  (We know the latter form is the LOWER of the two forms, because he had to EMPTY HIMSELF to take on this latter form.)

    I believe Jesus was always a servant of his God – even in the higher form.  But Paul is making a distinction between the higher form and the lower form, and so calls this lower form the form of a servant – even though Jesus was a servant of God in the higher form as well.

    We know this because he didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped.

    #357352
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2013,03:35)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,22:05)
    Mike,

    Do you believe God used the Holy Spirit to have sex with Mary in order to father Jesus?


    No.  Do you?


    Mike,

    Neither do I but I have heard that some teach that.

    I do believe God made Jesus from a part of Mary and much like technicians are making human clones in this age. In addition he manipulate the genetic code so the child would be a male.

    I am not sure of your belief as the last I knew you believe the the hypothetical preexistent Christ transformed into a human being at the conceptus stage of life. That doesn't sound like you believe God fathered Jesus at that time, directly or otherwise.

    In short I do not know what you mean by directly fathered.

    #357353
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,23:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,23:30)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,12:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,10:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25)
    A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one.

    Is it wise to base a teaching on hints?


    Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2.

    But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.)

    You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of.

    I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin.

    Believe what you want.


    Mike,

    Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already.

    The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order.

    Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed.

    In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make.


    k

    THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “

    THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT ,

    YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW ,

    ADIÓS AMIGOS


    T,

    Do you not see what is there to see?

    Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”?


    k

    THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION ;WE ALL KNOW THAT CHRIST DID NOT EXISTED IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT :

    :D  :D  :D ;READ  THE QUOTES, YOU ARE TOTALLY MIXUP


    T,

    Are you claiming that you believe that the preexistent Christ was not a servant of God?


    Scriptures says he was the first of God,s creation

    This is why he his the only begotten son of God ,


    T,

    You did not answer my question as far as I can tell.  If you think you did then perhaps a yes, a no, or something of that type followed by your explanation would be more clear to me than what you wrote.  Please try again.  Thank you.


    K

    i have answered you ,many time to those questions ,but you are what you are ;YOU CAN NOT COME TO GRIP WITH THE SCRIPTURES ,I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT ,

    YOU HAVE TO FACE WHAT IS WRITTEN ,I HAVE ALREADY ACCEPTED WHAT IS WRITTEN YOU DO NOT ,SO YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH GOD ON THIS ONE ;BUT THE “YES  OR NO “” WILL BE FROM YOUR MONTH NOT MINE ,


    T,

    This is a point that I had not made previously. So you are dodging. Should we continue this conversation on the Hot Seat forum?

    #357354
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2013,03:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,22:13)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,08:34)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2013,19:45)
    Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”?


    Of course Jesus couldn't have already existed in the form of a servant before taking on the form of a servant.

    He WAS existing in one form, but then emptied himself and took on a DIFFERENT form by being made in the likeness of a human being.

    And after being found in appearance as a human being, he humbled himself even further by becoming obedient to death.


    Mike,

    It seems you believe servant is a synonym of human in the statement “took on the form of a servant”.


    The point is that the form in which Jesus was existing was a higher form than the one he EMPTIED HIMSELF to take on.

    1.  Was existing in one form.
    2.  EMPTIED HIMSELF by taking on a LOWER form by being made in the likeness of a human being.  (We know the latter form is the LOWER of the two forms, because he had to EMPTY HIMSELF to take on this latter form.)

    I believe Jesus was always a servant of his God – even in the higher form.  But Paul is making a distinction between the higher form and the lower form, and so calls this lower form the form of a servant – even though Jesus was a servant of God in the higher form as well.

    We know this because he didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped.


    Mike,

    So Jesus did not actually take on the form of a servant as he was already one but lowered himself from the position of a high level servant to the position of a low level servant.

    Is “form” talking of “physical” form or of mindset form?

    Is the clause “being in very form God” also relative?

    #357361
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,16:00)
    I am not sure of your belief as the last I knew you believe the the hypothetical preexistent Christ transformed into a human being at the conceptus stage of life. That doesn't sound like you believe God fathered Jesus at that time, directly or otherwise.

    In short I do not know what you mean by directly fathered.


    My point was to Marty and Gene, who believe Jesus started life as a human being, who was exactly like us in every way.

    I was pointing out to Marty that while all of us were begotten by human fathers, Jesus was directly fathered by God. In other words, we are all creations of God, but we come into being BY God, and THROUGH a human father. Jesus didn't have that “THROUGH a human father” part. He only had the “BY God” part.

    Therefore, instead of being fathered by God THROUGH a human father, Jesus, unlike the rest of us, was fathered DIRECTLY by God.

    As for the rest of your point, you already know that I believe Jesus' one and only Father caused him to exist before the ages. At a later time, that same one and only Father caused him to exist as a human being.

    He did not BEGIN to exist more than one time. He BEGAN to exist only once – as a spirit being a long, long time ago. Then he took on a DIFFERENT form when he was born of Mary. He was born, died, and raised from the dead all in that second form. Later, that form was transformed back into his original spirit form as he ascended back to where he came from.

    #357363
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 11 2013,04:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,23:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,23:30)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,12:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,10:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25)
    A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one.

    Is it wise to base a teaching on hints?


    Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2.

    But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.)

    You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of.

    I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin.

    Believe what you want.


    Mike,

    Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already.

    The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order.

    Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed.

    In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make.


    k

    THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “

    THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT ,

    YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW ,

    ADIÓS AMIGOS


    T,

    Do you not see what is there to see?

    Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”?


    k

    THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION ;WE ALL KNOW THAT CHRIST DID NOT EXISTED IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT :

    :D  :D  :D ;READ  THE QUOTES, YOU ARE TOTALLY MIXUP


    T,

    Are you claiming that you believe that the preexistent Christ was not a servant of God?


    Scriptures says he was the first of God,s creation

    This is why he his the only begotten son of God ,


    T,

    You did not answer my question as far as I can tell.  If you think you did then perhaps a yes, a no, or something of that type followed by your explanation would be more clear to me than what you wrote.  Please try again.  Thank you.


    K

    i have answered you ,many time to those questions ,but you are what you are ;YOU CAN NOT COME TO GRIP WITH THE SCRIPTURES ,I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT ,

    YOU HAVE TO FACE WHAT IS WRITTEN ,I HAVE ALREADY ACCEPTED WHAT IS WRITTEN YOU DO NOT ,SO YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH GOD ON THIS ONE ;BUT THE “YES  OR NO “” WILL BE FROM YOUR MONTH NOT MINE ,


    T,

    This is a point that I had not made previously.  So you are dodging.  Should we continue this conversation on the Hot Seat forum?


    K

    you are dogging the scriptures for months

    Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!

    what is it that scriptures are saying ;OPEN YOUR EYES AND BELIEVE ;BUT YOU CAN NOT DO THAT WHY ????? EGO ?

    #357364
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    So you meant that in the current generation, Jesus had only a mother of the flesh and not a father.

    That is true according to what I have learned as well.

    #357365
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 11 2013,04:50)
    Mike,

    So you meant that in the current generation, Jesus had only a mother of the flesh and not a father.

    That is true according to what I have learned as well.


    K

    THIS IS WHY MARY IS THE SURROGATE MOTHER OF THE SON OF GOD ,AND JESUS WAS MADE TOTALLY SINLESS WITH OUT ANY OF ADAM CURSE ,OF THE SIN ,AND SO COULD SAVE ALL MEN ,BECAUSE HIS OFFERING OF HIS SACRIFICE WAS A BETTER ONE ,AND NO MEN BORN OF MEN ,MALE OR FEMALE COULD NOT GIVE THIS PERFECT GIFT ,THIS IS WHY IT SAYS ;

    GOD LOVE THE WORLD SO MUCH THAT HE OFFERED HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO SAVE IT ,

    #357366
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 11 2013,04:49)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 11 2013,04:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,23:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,23:30)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,12:26)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,10:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2013,07:41)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,07:35)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2013,02:38)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 08 2013,13:25)
    A passage in Philippians 2 seems to hint at that possibility but it also seems to hint that he was not a servant and then became one.

    Is it wise to base a teaching on hints?


    Actually, that passage in Phil 2 directly and plainly explains how Jesus was existing in one form BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being.

    It is only those who have personal wishes for Jesus to have been “exactly like us” who twist these easy-to-understand words from Paul……… and pretend that they don't understand the clear message he teaches in Phil 2.

    But even if it was just “hinted at” in Phil 2, there are loads of other scriptures that would change the “hint” to a sure thing.  (“I had glory with God before the world began”, “I came down from heaven”, “before Abraham existed, I have been”, etc.)

    You guys are as adept at pretending these scriptures (and many more) don't say what they're clearly saying as the Trinitarians are at pretending certain scriptures teach that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of.

    I don't have the patience to wade through your and Marty's semantics and word games anymore, Kerwin.

    Believe what you want.


    Mike,

    Do as you wish but the Philippians 2 argument clearly state Jesus “took upon him the form of a servant” which clearly means he did not have that form previously.  A Trinitarian could at best claim that hints at Jesus being God as angels are servants and so exist in the form of God already.

    The only way that Philippians 2:5-9 hints at Jesus taking the likeness of mankind after he already existed in the form of God is if you take verse 6-7 in chronological order.

    Neither of these are sound reasoning according the rules of logical reasoning because they are each flawed.

    In short Philippians 2:5-9 is at best weak circumstantial evidence for the case you are trying to make.


    k

    THERE IT SHOWS ” you do not believe in scriptures “

    THIS IS WHERE YOU ,MIKE AND i ,ARE GOING TO QUIT ,

    YOUR FLAWS ARE IN YOUR HEAD ,'YOU FIGHTING WITH GODS WORD ;BUT YOU DON'T CARE THIS WE CAN SEE BETTER NOW ,

    ADIÓS AMIGOS


    T,

    Do you not see what is there to see?

    Do you believe Jesus did not exist in the form of a servant before he “took on the form of a servant”?


    k

    THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION ;WE ALL KNOW THAT CHRIST DID NOT EXISTED IN THE FORM OF A SERVANT :

    :D  :D  :D ;READ  THE QUOTES, YOU ARE TOTALLY MIXUP


    T,

    Are you claiming that you believe that the preexistent Christ was not a servant of God?


    Scriptures says he was the first of God,s creation

    This is why he his the only begotten son of God ,


    T,

    You did not answer my question as far as I can tell.  If you think you did then perhaps a yes, a no, or something of that type followed by your explanation would be more clear to me than what you wrote.  Please try again.  Thank you.


    K

    i have answered you ,many time to those questions ,but you are what you are ;YOU CAN NOT COME TO GRIP WITH THE SCRIPTURES ,I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT ,

    YOU HAVE TO FACE WHAT IS WRITTEN ,I HAVE ALREADY ACCEPTED WHAT IS WRITTEN YOU DO NOT ,SO YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH GOD ON THIS ONE ;BUT THE “YES  OR NO “” WILL BE FROM YOUR MONTH NOT MINE ,


    T,

    This is a point that I had not made previously.  So you are dodging.  Should we continue this conversation on the Hot Seat forum?


    K

    you are dogging the scriptures for months

    Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!

    what is it that scriptures are saying ;OPEN YOUR EYES AND BELIEVE ;BUT YOU CAN NOT DO THAT WHY ????? EGO ?


    T,

    I do not like taking people to the Hot Seat as it is a sign that communications have broken down and yet despite my threat to do so you have still not answered my question though I
    have striven to be polite.

    The baseless accusations you level are just a method to avoid what you do not want to talk about. It seems you have some deep based fear that provokes you to do so when you feel your philosophy is threatened. Where is your power to overcome?

    Please answer the question though I most likely will not require you to do so on the Hot Seat.

    #357367
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,16:11)
    Mike,

    So Jesus did not actually take on the form of a servant as he was already one but lowered himself from the position of a high level servant to the position of a low level servant.


    Correct.  Maybe this will help:

    2 Kings 24:1
    During Jehoiakim’s reign, King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon attacked.  Jehoiakim was his subject for three years, but then he rebelled against him.

    We could make this statement about Jehoiakim:  He was existing in the form of the King of Israel, but for three years took on the form of a servant.

    Here's the thing, though…………  The fact that Jehoiakim took on a lesser form of a servant by becoming subject to Nebuchadnezzar for three years doesn't mean that he wasn't already a servant to his own gods and his subjects BEFORE he took on that lower servant form.

    Nor does it mean that he stopped being a king once he did take on the form of a servant.  

    So don't try to read too much into it, Kerwin.  The point is that Jehoiakim was existing in a higher form, and then lowered himself by taking on the form of a servant to Nebuchadnezzar.  So while he may have already been SERVING others before Nebuchadnezzar, it is right to say “he took on the form of a servant” when Nebuchadnezzar took control of him.

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,16:11)
    Is “form” talking of “physical” form or of mindset form?


    The Greek word “morphe” means “outward appearance”.  The point is that Jesus was existing with an outward appearance like God's before emptying himself and taking on the outward appearance of a servant (lower form of being than the one he was having…….. as in “mighty spirit being” versus “human being”.)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,16:11)
    Is the clause “being in very form God” also relative?


    The Greek words are “who in form of God beginning”.  The “beginning” is often translated as “existing”.  Perhaps they should leave it as “beginning”, and it would end some confusion.  :)

    Have in you the mind of Jesus, who, beginning in the form of God……… :)

    As for “form of God” being relative, I'd say yes. “Form of God” is a higher form than “form of a servant” – even though he could have been SERVING others before emptying himself and taking on that lesser form.

    #357369
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 11 2013,04:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 11 2013,04:50)
    Mike,

    So you meant that in the current generation, Jesus had only a mother of the flesh and not a father.

    That is true according to what I have learned as well.


    K

    THIS IS WHY MARY IS THE SURROGATE MOTHER OF THE SON OF GOD ,AND JESUS WAS MADE TOTALLY SINLESS WITH OUT ANY OF ADAM CURSE ,OF THE SIN ,AND SO COULD SAVE ALL MEN ,BECAUSE HIS OFFERING OF HIS SACRIFICE WAS A BETTER ONE ,AND NO MEN BORN OF MEN ,MALE OR FEMALE COULD NOT GIVE THIS PERFECT GIFT ,THIS IS WHY IT SAYS ;

    GOD LOVE THE WORLD SO MUCH THAT HE OFFERED HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO SAVE IT ,


    T,

    Scripture does not say Mary is Jesus' surrogate mother. Instead it states he was conceived in her. Those things are at odds.

    #357370
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,16:50)
    Mike,

    So you meant that in the current generation, Jesus had only a mother of the flesh and not a father.

    That is true according to what I have learned as well.


    I don't know about “current generation”. Mary was the mother of Jesus' flesh, and Jesus no longer has flesh in heaven.

    So during the second (birth as a human) and third (risen from death) stages of his existence, Jesus had a flesh mother, but not a flesh father.

    #357371
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 11 2013,05:05)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 11 2013,04:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 11 2013,04:50)
    Mike,

    So you meant that in the current generation, Jesus had only a mother of the flesh and not a father.

    That is true according to what I have learned as well.


    K

    THIS IS WHY MARY IS THE SURROGATE MOTHER OF THE SON OF GOD ,AND JESUS WAS MADE TOTALLY SINLESS WITH OUT ANY OF ADAM CURSE ,OF THE SIN ,AND SO COULD SAVE ALL MEN ,BECAUSE HIS OFFERING OF HIS SACRIFICE WAS A BETTER ONE ,AND NO MEN BORN OF MEN ,MALE OR FEMALE COULD NOT GIVE THIS PERFECT GIFT ,THIS IS WHY IT SAYS ;

    GOD LOVE THE WORLD SO MUCH THAT HE OFFERED HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON TO SAVE IT ,


    T,

    Scripture does not say Mary is Jesus' surrogate mother.  Instead it states he was conceived in her.  Those things are at odds.


    k

    READ YOUR ENTIRE BIBLE AND SEE HOW ,ALL OF GODS ACTION IN THE LAW ,

    IF IT IS ADD ODDS ,,YOU HAVE TO LOOK FOR UNDERSTANDING JUST LIKE ANY SEARCHER THAT LOVE'S GOD

    #357372
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2013,17:05)
    Scripture does not say Mary is Jesus' surrogate mother. Instead it states he was conceived in her. Those things are at odds.


    From Dictionary.com:
    surrogate mother
    a woman who helps a couple to have a child by………

    A. carrying to term an embryo conceived by the couple and transferred to her uterus, or……….

    B. by being inseminated with the man's sperm and carrying it to term.

    A surrogate mother is one who allows her womb (and sometimes even her own egg) to be used to create a child for another person or couple.

    Mary allowed God to use her womb to create a human child for Himself.

    I know this is semantics, but Pierre's claim has some validity.

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